White Wall Tires

[RobertM]

Beautiful picture.

[Glen]

I think the manual gives the judges the leeway to deduct or not depending on any number of things.  If the manual said a radial was an absolute deduction then if someone came in with a radial that looked exactly like the original tire the judges would be required to deduct points regardless of any extenuating circumstance. 

[Jason Edge]

Glen get's it.   The goal of restoration and judging is to compare to what the car would look like new from the factory...not what the current tire fad is.  I do understand that for certain types of bias ply there may be radials that are made with a very close proximity to the original experience.  For my years of interest, however, an original bias ply next to the nearest size radial is like night and day. It is one of the most striking exterior items that screams not original when you compare the original type bias ply to the radials. 
Just look at the comparison picture I previously posted, but more telling is the side view of the shoulder crown part of the bias ply with the elongated grooves that to me gives the tire a very regal look:

[52Cadillac]

In my ignorance when purchasing tires I thought the only available ones for my car were the bias ply.
With that said they ride fine. The one thing I take issue with is they like to hold onto lines going down the road.
George, I must've put mine, and Cadillac Widows lives on the line. How many miles? Let me see, Pittsburgh to Savannah, Ga, then Hilton Head, Sc to Dallas and back. Then we went to Poolesville, Maryland and back to Hilton Head. Then we rode to the Grand National and back to Hilton Head. Just in the past 12 months. Not one problem or life lost. I know I know, my life is hanging by a tread. Sorry I don't really see a problem with Bias safety wise. With that said and to do all over again I would most likely go with Radials.
Thanks, Mike

[Jay Friedman]

I agree with George: it's a safety issue.  Currently I have bias plies on my '49--and they do ride reasonably well--but as soon as they wear out I'm replacing them with the type of radials that closely resemble bias plies. 

What's some points, anyway?  It's just a hobby, guys and beauty is, indeed, in the eyes of the beholder!

[marty55cdv]

  My thoughts on this are if you bought a collector car like I did, to attend local shows, cruise nights etc, 99 % of the people looking at your car could care less what tires, spark plug wires, valve stem caps, were original to it. The most enjoyment I get out of owning these cars is the smiles on peoples faces when they stop to look and then are interested enough to ask a few questions.  If you bought a car with the intent of being judged at events like the GN or region shows for the other 1% crowd and are concerned about losing points for originality then I guess the tire issue is a problem, due to the wording in the manual,
which I think George wants addressed. When I had my 41 judged in Vegas a few years ago the Judges were kind to me and explained what was right and what wasn't and I listened, did I go to the expense of correcting these things ? No because that isn't what I bought the car for.  What I remember most from that GN was being parked next to the eventual Ansel Sackett award winner and meeting the owner and becoming friends, having him tell me my car was beautiful meant much more that what a judging manual says.    George I might suggest you call Carl Steig he will be happy to address your concerns.

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

On my '62 are a set of biases for the simple reason that I prefer the appearance of the biases. The WW width of the tires on the car are slightly under 2" which is incorrect on a 1962; the proper width is 1". Again, the style was chosen because - to my eyes - the 2" WW looks much nicer than the 1" on the particular year, model and color of the car. I personally would not install 2" WW on a 1963 & up, however.

That said, my opinion is simply this:

If an owner is willing to expend the time, effort and energy- in addition to - depriving him/herself the advantages modern technology has to offer- in order to bring their car to represent the highest levels of authenticity attainable- such efforts & self-sacrifice should be recognized and rewarded accordingly. Therefore- a car that represents the closest approximation of correctness & authenticity, should indeed receive more points than one that has not - and this extends to tires. Period.

George and I have discussed the matter and I believe we are in agreement with the above- more or less. The only area in which we differ - slightly - is the following:

As I see it - so long if the same judging team applies the same standard to a given class- there should be no problem.

George's position is that the discretion given may result in point inconsistencies among various classes.

For example- while radials may appear "acceptable" or "credible" on a mid-late '60s model, the same tire may appear totally out of place on a 1950s model car. So the question then becomes, why is it acceptable for a 1965 Cadillac to have radials (although incorrect)- but not for a 1955?

It's a fine point of contention and not likely to have a serious impact for all practical purposes.

One simple solution would address the entire question of points & tires- that is the elimination of any language allowing any judging discretion to decide what tires are authentic and which are not- replacing it with an absolute standard. This would greatly reduce (or eliminate altogether) any subjectivity from the judging process on the question of tire construction & whitewall width. 

Again, this comes from someone who knowingly installed incorrect whitewalls on his car.

One man's opinion.

[Makandriaco]

Hello all,

I Think George's point is valid, regardless of what your oppinion is about Radials. The issue is that we have a manual that is used for judging, and that manual has an ambiguous statement that leaves the personal preference of a judge to determine if an issue is penalized or not. I have to admit, I have only once been a competitor on a car show, and that was almost 30 years ago, but I compete many times a year in another type of competitions, nothing to do with cars, and I have always find that the undefined rules are the main reasons of injustice, protests and competitors not participating any more. The statement in the manual should be changed to something more definitive, like if the radial tires are absolutelly like the original bias ones there will be no deduction (we know there are no such tires yet, but there may be in the future).

About the safety issue I find it kind of annoying that people take it to face value, if you take all things in consideration, like the time you spend in your classic, the speed you drive it, and the actual statistics about the number of accidents that could have been prevented by driving with radials, it is totally insignificant. I would only consider it if the car was used as a daily driver, and even then, I would just consider it. Many people have said it before: beauty is in the eye of the beholder... but you can't deny that the difference is noticeable.

[76eldo]

Carl Steig, the chief judge, at this years GN was asked at the judges meeting in the morning about the rules concerning radial tires.

He did not say that there was a mandatory deduction for pre-72's with radials. He was asked more than once.  His response was that if the tire had the proper vintage appearance and whitewall configuration and didn't look like a generic tire purchased at a Sears auto center than it "may" be subject to a deduction. 

I took that to mean that it was up to the judges discretion.

I was given a tire deduction on my 70 DeVille. It has Firestone 721 wide whitewall tires that look great and appropriate.  Since the pre 72 rule exists and the judges deducted points for incorrect tires its perfectly fine.

I think the debate is this; if someone goes to the time and trouble to buy bias double striped totally correct tires they should score higher than my radials. But what about the guy that was there with a set of beautiful Diamond Backs with correctly sized double stripes? Should he get points off too?

What about batteries?  Do we need a repro 1970 looking battery or will a modern Delco be OK?
So if we accept radials, what about a guy that doesn't even go with whitewalls?
Buys some 235/75 radials with a wrong whitewall or no whitewall?

I'd like to see a rule on tires that allows radials that have the proper appearance and a whitewall width that is correct for the year.  I'd also like to see a rule that adds some extra bonus points for things like the exact tires and period repro batteries and allow those additional points to be used in any appearance catagory.

I am sure that there is a process to make changes to the rules.  What do you do if the bias ply tires that came on your car become unavailable?

It's complicated. 

Brian

[76eldo]

Art,

Agreed.  I am taking my 60 to Lake George and it has radials and if points come off, I don't care.  My 70 lost points this year due to the tires and I don't care.

When I restored my Packard many years ago, lots of guys were running radials, but I put on the correct Firestone Bias ply repro tires to score the maximum points.

But, we have an interesting situation where it's open to interpretation on period correct (as far as appearance) radials.

Maybe they should just make the pre-72 rule an absolute and end the discussion.

Brian

[INTMD8]

If your car is how you want it to be you wouldn't bring it just because you may get a points deduction for tires?

I would personally place more value on going to a fun event and being able to do something with my car than worry about a few points.

I guess if it bothers you that much than a set of bias ply's wouldn't be a bad investment.  It seems to me that if bias tires make the care more 'correct' than the judging would reflect that but I would prefer to have my car the way I like it over what would score the highest.

[76eldo]

If you want to enter the Primary division in serious competition, an extra set of rims with the dead-on correct tires to use when driving to compete is a great way to go.  I was thinking of that for my 70, but it's an original car with numerous imperfections.  I will not do any paint work to it just to make it score higher in Primary, I like the originality of the car.

I did replace clamps and tidy it up under the hood by cleaning only (no paint).  It's got a bright yellow Advance Auto battery that was put in right before I bought it and I received deductions for that too.  Would a new ( but modern) Delco help that?

Brian

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

Frankly, exceptions in the name of "safety"- whether real or imagined - are disturbing to me. The reason is that it becomes a slippery slope, opening all kinds of doors for other modifications -  for which it becomes impossible to draw a line.

I for one, do not wish to see one of the most fundamental ideals of the CLC being eroded - namely the recognition & promotion of Cadillac and LaSalle vehicles to the highest standards of authenticity & originality. 

[Dan LeBlanc]

I think we're all making a mountain out of a mole hill here. I also judged this year for the first time and I judged a class where the model start and end date crossed the bias ply line. Indeed, I deducted on the cars that were to have bias plus that had radials.

That said, my 61 Fleetwood has 3" BFG Silvertown Radials on in a size that's not even close to the original bias ply (255/70/15). Incorrect width, style, etc.  Someone went crazy under my hood before I bought it with GM blue on the valve covers and black on areas where black doesn't belong. My car placed second in P19 despite the authenticity issues. So that goes to show that there is leeway in the rules to allow for some non authentic items but still do well in judging.

[Dan LeBlanc]

The way I look at it is this. Radials handle better. Yes. You have to stay more alert and on top of the car with bias plys. Not a bad thing. Really though, it's not necessarily the tires that will save your bacon, it's the brakes.

If we allow radials on a bias ply car solely in the name of safety, what's next?  Four wheel disc brakes and dual master cylinders and booster on a car with four wheel drums and single circuit manual brakes? 

[Dan LeBlanc]

I've got my wide white radials for sale. If they don't sell, I'm going to throw them on a spare set of rims I've got and call them my touring tire.

In my case, I've decided I do want to play the game. I bought my car which was a P19 second place car, and I'm doing what I need to do to correct the mistakes made with the car along the way. That meant ordering a bunch of things - repro battery, replacing the original plug wires with an exact set as they needed replacement (I'm hanging on to the originals as a souvenir along with the front brake shoes that are original also), and spending the small fortune in bias plys etc.

For me, I know what I need to do to appease the judges. For me, part of that is having a set of touring tires and a set of show tires. Lots of folks do that too.

[Dan LeBlanc]

Judging however, is just that. One jury's interpretation of the case presented before them. Just like in the legal system - you have the crime and the law by which the breech is evaluated. For judges and juries get it right 100% of the time?  No!  Is it consistent?  By in large, yes. After all, we are all humans with our own rationale, mindset, and ways of interpreting fact. There will be ambiguities in judging and no amount of tightening up a rule book will eliminate that. Tires may be the issue this year, next it could be something else.

That's why there's a team of judges. Highest and lowest scores for a car are eliminated and the two in the middle are averaged to generate a car's final score. That's the best I think that can be done to eliminate bias or inconsistencies in judging.

[Dan LeBlanc]

Allow me to elaborate on what we were instructed to do at the judges meeting:

Bias ply look alike tires that are radials are allowed on bias ply cars as long as radial is not imprinted on the visible wall.  Pre 1972 model year cars, deductions were to be taken for radials in place of bias ply tires.  On 1972 + cars, deductions were to be made for bias ply tires in place of radials.

Cars are to appear as they would have been delivered from the dealer.  When it came to dealer added accessories, only CADILLAC SUPPLIED dealer accessories were acceptable.  Aftermarket dealer add-ons (such as a different tire) though, although added at the dealer, because they were aftermarket, were to receive deductions also.

These were two ambiguous areas that judges had inquired about and it seemed to me that the direction was pretty clear in my mind.  If the club provided precise direction, what the judges did after that is not controllable.

[52Cadillac]

So thank God it's settled. Bias ply all the way. 
Mike

[Walter Youshock]

AACA deducts 5 points PER TIRE.  That's 25 points, including the spare, if you show up with radials on a car that came with bias.  At most, it falls under an Authenticity Deduction with the CLC.  Tire size, style, type, can all be looked at from an Authenticity standpoint.  The only tire that LOOKS like an 8.20 x 15 IS an 8.20 x 15.  Not a 235 75R 15.  Is a radial tire on a '59 Biarritz correct?  NO!  A '41 60 Special?  NO!  If 5 cars out of 10 in the class have radials, and the rest have bias, I feel the cars that are MORE original should be recognized.  Of the 5 with bias, if 3 have gangster whites and the other 2 have the correct whitewall width, then those 2 cars are MOST correct.