When is a car "road worthy" and "dependable"?

[bcroe]

I really don't expect failures on the road.  Drove the 77 130,000 miles in the last 8 years. 
That includes trips to the north, south, and east borders, not the Pacific yet.  180 miles
are just a routine weekend.  Have done 1100 miles in a day many times, my record is
1250 from Fort Meyers to NW IL in a day.  I'm too old to repeat that, but the car doesn't
care. 

My method is good maintenance.  If a part has a predictable failure rate, I change it out
before that number.  Water pumps, alternator bearings, 60,000 miles.  Starter and alternator
brushes 100,000 miles.  Coolant hoses 4 years, about that for tires.  Other hoses longer, not
forever.  Gas tank off for inspection or swap every decade and a half.  Heater core 18 years. 
Timing chain is a roller set.  Pull trans & go through maybe every 120,000 miles, probably
doesn't need much.  Radiator swap anytime it can no longer keep the gauge locked at 185. 
Some things have been reworked to eliminate failure points.   My belt arrangement lets me
drive the car home without either the power steering or the A/C (not both) in case of complete
failure; has happened.  Exhaust system usually isn't a show stopper, but mine is 304 stainless,
as are brake lines.  A dual circuit brake system can usually get you home if a line doesn't start
leaking. 

You can't have too many gauges, must have is engine temperature. 

While the drive train is very reliable, I carry a few spare parts that might be hard to find for an old
car on the road.  Have had light tools, spare lights and belts forever; lately an HEI, alternator, and
water pump.  For the injected 79, the fuel pumps got worked over, there is a special HEI, a spare
ECU, and a spare ESS module. Might throw something else in if I suspect anything. 

Some things give lots of warning.  In 74 I drove home from Alaska on a bad U joint.  2 weeks
later the trans blew, I put in a heavy duty model. 

There are no absolutes, but driving the car a lot is a good test.  Making failures very rare is the idea. 
In a million and a half miles, I have had some failures that were impossible to anticipate.  Most likely
is bad aftermarket parts, beware.  Bruce Roe

[Scot Minesinger]

Brian,

The 1970 Cadillac is reliable, and it has never left me stranded in nine years and 35k miles.  The reading material on this subject recommends that you carry a spare fuel pump, alternator, starter, and etc. as I listed, and just going along with the experts.  Except for a starter that was really just a bad replacement, not the fault of the car, is the only thing that gave me trouble.  It got me home from GN 2013 nonetheless.  Then I replaced the bad new starter at home with a good re-built - those seem to be the way to go.

The "Would you hand over the keys to your wife or daughter?" is also another good perspective.  I have a few times, so should be good.

[Bill Young]

This is a very good discussion. I personally drive My '72 Eldorado Convertible as my daily driver and I never heasitate to drive my '61 Sedan DeVille 4 window either. Partly it is because I am 60 and it is hard for me to wrap my brain around the fact that one car is 42 and the other is 53 because the time they were new is clear in my memory and my family owned cars like these almost new , so I know when they feel and sound right and they have no computers or stuff that a 15 year old car has that if it fails could cost much more to repair or you cannot get the electronics anymore period. So , esentially I believe I am not afraid to drive old Cadillac's because I have the major systems updated and then keep an eye on things while I believe the Good Lord will keep an eye on me. I think the suggestion earlier of carrying a copy of CLC membership book is great. I know if a Member called us in a panic we would respond. And finally I believe it is wise to allign yourself with one or two local repair shops that are friendly and will repair classic cars reasonably.

[cadillacmike68]

Will,

I am an ex boy scout, and an army Colonel.  That long list is only for a long trip. The top half (belts, hoses, points, etc) takes up hardly any space, and I stuff it behind and around the spare tire.  My crate of brochures, photos and old advertising memorabilia takes up more space in the trunk, than those parts.

I've gone 600+ miles in a weekend like this and haven't had to use any of it. But it's there, just in case.

That said, Rt 66 is expected to be a 6,000 mile journey. I'm taking those extra items on a trip like that, and any where I need more than 1 day to get there.

[Tito Sobrinho]

I bought my '49 in 1986 in Cleveland (OH). Flew there from Augusta (GA) paid the owner and drove alone the 700 miles to my home with just a jack, the spare tire and a lot of confidence.
I left Cleveland at 3AM and reached my home in Augusta at 7PM. It was a wonderful trip.

[Jay Friedman]

Speaking of old guys, in 2005 I drove my '49 700+ miles to the GN in Des Moines IA, convoying along with CLCer Joe Patten in his '41 Fleetwood.  My having done this was not particularly noteworthy as I was only 65 at the time, but Joe was 78 and he had a marvelous time.  We took it easy by taking in the sights to be seen over the course of 3 days, including the Mark Twain museum, Hannibal MO.  To top it all off we both won prizes for our cars as well.  Along the way one of my exhaust manifold gaskets developed a leak, making for a noisy motor, and Joe's ignition timing's advance had to be re-set on the fly, but we both know our cars and had no real problems.

[Bill Podany #19567]

Jay,

I remember you and Joe at DesMoines.  I owned the champagne colored 41 60 Special, and was positioned in the same row of Cadillac's with you and Joe.  My classic received a 98 point Senior Award.  I loved your 49, as my father bought one exactly like yours new; I was a little kid, but it was my first love of Cadillac's. 

Bill Podany
Knoxville, TN

[Jay Friedman]

Bill,
My car thanks you for the compliment.  I remember your car as well, as someone here in GA had a similar one at the time which jogs my memory.  I think Cadillacs of all ages are meant to be driven and, because of their quality, if kept in shape shouldn't give too many problems an owner can't handle on the road.

BTW: Joe is still around here in Atlanta, though he doesn't get out as much as he used to.

[Scot Minesinger]

Driving my what I would consider road worthy 1970 Cadillac today (nice and sunny) on routine errands and my power brakes went out half way through the trip.  The vacuum gauge on my car never reduced much less than 21 inches (have a gauge) during braking so does not seem like it could be a vacuum leak or ruptured diaphragm in booster.  Hoping it is a collapsed vacuum line.  Leaving for out of town tomorrow and did not have time to deal with it.  Just wanted to drive my car once a week to keep it good this time of year.  Point is thought it was good to go-roadworthy and all.  Got a good leg-press workout stopping the car on the way home.  If this thread is still going when I get to it, will post an update.

[Bill Young]

Scot, Sorry to hear of Your brake problem. Jay I live in Gainesville Ga. If it gets to 60F. and sunny the top goes down. I just cannot help it.
Bill Young

[cadillacmike68]

My 1968 DVC had been running fine except for a few ongoing nagging issues, none of which made it un-roadworthy.

Then, a few months ago, while on a street with no setbacks, the top down and the radio off (a rare combination of circumstances) we noticed a tick-tick-tick coming from the right side. I thought it was brakes at the rear,  shop folks said it was rte front and was wheel bearings.  the sound was too tinny to be wheel bearings. A brake inspection yielded rear brakes in fine condition, but a loose wheel cover crest!?!?! That was it.

But while pulling the wheel bearings, we noticed the outer race spinning in the hub. That's not good. And it doesn't get better on its own.

We put it back together, and I drove it 650+ miles that weekend with no issues., But I also ordered 2 new 1968 Cadillac disc rotors with integrated hubs. These are Hard to find and are Costly.

That's when I discovered, the hard way, that the front disk brake setup was from a 1969-70 Olds 88 - 98. Oh yeah. It fits, used the same ball joints and tie rod ends, but the rotor  / hub (2 piece) registration was quite a bit different. The inner bearing part of the Olds hub actually sticks out about 1/4 inch from the inner rotor surface, while Cadillac rotors from the same period have the inner bearing about 1/4 inside the rotor surface.

So, about $3,000 later in parts & labor, I have proper Cadillac front steering / suspension / brakes on my car. My original Cadillac steering arms and knuckles had long ago disappeared.

I now have an Olds 1969-70 88 or 98 front disc brake set (with worn hubs, but good rotors), that I have to try and sell.

It would have cost about half that if I went full 1968-69 steering parts, but the 1970 steering knuckle is a superior item, combining the Steering Knuckle, Steering Arm and Caliper mounting bracket all in one piece. That required taking out the existing lower ball joints and outer tie-rod ends and putting in 1970 parts. I also needed to get the 1970 & later Camber eccentrics because they are shaped slightly differently from the 1969 & earlier ones.

I decided to use the 1972 & later rotors. All I had to do was ground the lip off the inner part of the dust shield so it wouldn't hit the inner part of the hub. There were no Steering Arm bolts to reverse, because it's a one piece Knuckle.

So now I just need to get 1970 outer tie rods & lower ball joints if I ever need to replace them, and the 1972 -76 rotors are less than 1/2 the cost of the 1968-71 rotors.

While we were at it, we changed the gearbox (been waiting to do this) and the rag joint (broken in 3 places) so now steering effort is much better.

I didn't need that expense right before Christmas though...

I still have to change the TH400's vacuum modulator, the compressor's front shaft seal, the power steering pressure line (all 3 leaking a bit), and give another thorough check of all the chassis grounds because restarting after a hot soak still causes the starter to boga bit before cranking over. Once it starts to crank, it cranks faster than a group of arabs running away from an Israeli armoured brigade, but there is that persistent bog...

[Scot Minesinger]

Mike,

That power steering hose is right next to the exhaust manifold.  By 1974 (just replaced one on that year) the power steering pressure line is under the frame and away from exhaust manifold - superior design (might have started this in 71-not sure).  Anyway a leak is a likely fire, so highly advise that you replace them.  You replaced the steering gear so they should be easy to replace.  Even if you did not I have replaced them on many 67, 68, 70 Caddy's and never had any trouble loosening the factory tightened compression nut on power steering line that threads into gear.

[Dave Burke]

Hey Y'all,

Sorry to get into this thread so late, but life intruded.

When is a car "roadworthy" and "Dependable"?  Well, let me give you my two cents, and maybe that is worth a shilling or a hundred rubles in today's economy.  I have crawled and rebuilt my 1957 Sedan De Ville from stem to stern.  But even before that, I took a good percentage of Auburn University's History department from Opelika (near Auburn) to Amelia Island, FL for this last year's Concours d'Elegance.  Roadworthy?  Dependable?  You bet.  Why?  Well here's why: I had the manual for the car before I got it (last January), and I had plenty of tools (and know how to use them) and a cell phone.  Are the wheels attached to the car and does it stop when brakes are applied?  Does the steering work?  Then it is road worthy.  Do you trust your own mechanical skills?  Can you do what is a little above and beyond the call of duty to make it run?  The dependability is on the owner.  Me, I'll take my car from any point on the East coast of the USA to the West Coast (including Alaska) with no fear.  And if she breaks down along the way I will either be able to fix her or I will not.  But I will have some good stories.  And I will get her back home and fix up whatever is wrong. 

Just remember the old adage: Ships are safe in the harbor, but that is not what ships are made for.

Drive the living heck out of your car, and take risks, and avoid being that cringing person who is more worried about a breakdown than having an ADVENTURE.  Me, I have a driver, and that is what I do, Mon Frer, I DRIVE.

Best Regards and WORRY LESS AND DRIVE MORE.

Dave Burke
CLC# 27968 (or some such)

[Bill Young]

I've owned several 1968 DeVille convertibles and I found the warm engine starting problem was that all that juice was trying to go thru the neutral safety switch contacts. When after I was unable to obtain a reliable neutral safety switch I wired around the switch I never had the problem again of the engine sluggishly turning over when trying to start hot. Thru the switch the engine cranked like a six volt system. Without the switch never any problem. I just had to realize with no switch, no back up lights and the engine would now start while in gear.

[bcroe]

I've owned several 1968 DeVille convertibles and I found the warm engine starting problem was that all that juice was trying to go thru the neutral safety switch contacts. When after I was unable to obtain a reliable neutral safety switch I wired around the switch I never had the problem again of the engine sluggishly turning over when trying to start hot. Thru the switch the engine cranked like a six volt system. Without the switch never any problem. I just had to realize with no switch, no back up lights and the engine would now start while in gear. 

I don't understand.  The neutral switch only affects the starter SOLENOID; once it pulls in, the
motor circuit is the same.  Bruce Roe

[Scot Minesinger]

Mike,

That slow starter when hot has never happened to me yet, but my friends it has and they asked to replace the starter.  I did and it cured the problem, but it could have been loose connections.  When replacing a starter I always clean-up/tighten battery ground, frame ground at starter, clean battery terminals and etc to make sure there are no issues.

After reading your brake explanation on the 68 and 69 Cadillacs, although I like the exterior looks and dash better on a 68 than a 70 Cadillac, guess when it comes to brakes glad I have the simplicity of a 1970.

["Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364]

Bill,
"Without the switch never any problem. I just had to realize with no switch, no back up lights and the engine would now start while in gear."
There are two circuits in the switch. One for the back up lights and one completely independent that completes the starter solenoid circuit.  Just cross ing the purple wires at the switch will eliminate neutral safety feature.   I too can't see how wiring around the switch would help with a hot engine. If the circuit is completed AT ALL, it will be completed at all times.
Greg Surfas

[Coupe Deville]

Drive the living heck out of your car, and take risks, and avoid being that cringing person who is more worried about a breakdown than having an ADVENTURE.

Personally I know a few original Classic cars that don't get driven besides around the town because of that very thing.

-Gavin

[Jon S]

Personally I know a few original Classic cars that don't get driven besides around the town because of that very thing.

-Gavin

I drive my original 1958 around town, out of town and all over and on it's last run I opened it up at 55 and it was doing over 90 in a few seconds!  Had to hit the brakes to bring it back to the speed limit.  I drive this car like any of my others and have no fears whatsoever!

["Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364]

A simple answer (IMHO) to "making" a car dependable is knowledge, understanding and confidence.
1.Knowledge of ALL the mechanical and electrical systems of your car, how they function and how they (might) fail.

2.Understanding of all the idiosyncrasies of your car and its systems, and what to expect from them.  This will dictate how fast you take curves, how far you follow behind in traffic, and what you might expect of gas, oil and consumables (belts and hoses, etc.).

3. Confidence in your mechanical ability if you do your own work, or the skill and dependability of the people you have working on your car.

Whining about either poor quality parts or service agencies has no place in our hobby.  If we don't seek out quality we won't get it.  Many, many, many of us have learned to be our own mechanics and diagnosticians because we can't find them in the mainstream, or do not want to pay what a qualified technician (read that Magician of antiquity) is entitled to charge because of his (or her) level of skill and experience.

The short version is If you are not going to learn and devote sufficient resources to this hobby and your car.  buy a "trailer queen" and tow it with a new truck.
Greg Surfas