Have 1955 Cadillac Eldorado Convertible. Did they use the word Biarritz in 55? Just trying to understand tye name and why it was used and for what models.
Randy, Texas
All 1953-1955 Eldorados were convertibles. Starting with 1956, the convertible was now referred to as the Eldorado Biarritz. The new hardtop version was called Eldorado Seville. This naming went through 1960 to differentiate the hardtop from the convertible. Then there was the Brougham, a 4-door hardtop made in Italy for 1957 and 1958, then in the U.S. for 1959 and 1960.
Mr. Skelly is quite correct. There was no "Biarritz"
in 1955. I'm often asked when I'm showing my '55 Eldorado
"Is that a Biarritz?" -- and I go through the explanation
as in the previous post. In 1956, that name was derived
to differentiate between the Eldorado coupe (Seville)
and the convertible (Biarritz) -- the first year for
the Eldorado hardtop coupe.
Mike
I echo Mike's comments. I have explained to many about the name change in '56. The Eldo line spit into two models in 1956 so new names were needed to differentiate. Clay/Lexi
Weren't those early Eldorado's, 1953, 1954, 1955, called Special Sport Convertibles ?
Mike
Hmmm... Had a quick look in the Schneider book which is largely a reprint of segments of the salesman's data books. No mention of that name. Perhaps someone else has some info? Clay/Lexi
Quote from: RandyK on August 29, 2022, 03:09:18 PMHave 1955 Cadillac Eldorado Convertible. Did they use the word Biarritz in 55? Just trying to understand the name and why it was used and for what models.
Randy, Texas
As others have said, the Biarritz name started in '56 to differentiate the convertible from the newly created Eldorado Hardtop Coupe called The Seville which was not produced prior to then. Before '56 there was only a Eldorado convertible so there was no need for any additional name.
I've also got a '55 Eldorado - any chance of some pictures?
Quote from: J. Skelly on August 29, 2022, 03:43:52 PMA Then there was the Brougham, a 4-door hardtop made in Italy for 1957 and 1958, then in the U.S. for 1959 and 1960.
It's just the opposite: 57 - 58 Brougham models were made in the US; the 59 - 60 were done in Italy.
The "special sport convertible" moniker was used in some
of the print advertising back in the day. Along with that,
the wording "now in limited production -- price on request"
was added as well. I'll go through my scrapbook of old ads
and see if I can post a pic here.
Mike
Quote from: Roger Zimmermann on August 30, 2022, 01:13:36 PMIt's just the opposite: 57 - 58 Brougham models were made in the US; the 59 - 60 were done in Italy.
To clarify a little, many believe the 1959 and 1960 eldorado brougham
were of Italian construction.
The 59 - 60 brougham were assembled and finished as a "kit"
furnished by us production. Designed by Detroit ...
Quote from: Lockhouse on August 30, 2022, 05:33:49 AMI've also got a '55 Eldorado - any chance of some pictures?
For mine, you can read the restoration story here. https://forums.cadillaclasalleclub.org/index.php?topic=162955.0
Quote from: Roger Zimmermann on August 30, 2022, 01:13:36 PMIt's just the opposite: 57 - 58 Brougham models were made in the US; the 59 - 60 were done in Italy.
thanks for the correction ... yes, I sure messed that part up!
The 1959 and '60 Eldorado Broughams were built by Pininfarina in Italy. The chassis, provided by Detroit was substantially strengthened by having welded plates in critical places, these plates were almost half an inch thick. It is not known if the plates were added at Clark Street or in Italy.
The body panels, with the lead removed are quite small? Having seen one stripped bare I might think that in those days the car bodies Pininfarina built were very small, especially at the side of a Cadillac. Perhaps they didn't have big enough stamping machines? I believe they stamped most panels and but-welded them in a jig. Door boxes were also from a regular Cadillac and rather cleverly altered, it's fascinating to see a cross-section of two door boxes, one with a regular Cadillac skin on it and one with the cut and pasted Brougham skin on it.
Did their interiors come from Fleetwood like the Iranian Sevilles did? I'm not sure. I do know that each part, a trimmed door card, a courtesy light, were all numbered with the car's body number. The car I know though had some wrong numbers in the mix? It was very odd and difficult to explain. I do believe we've tracked down one courtesy light chrome housing to be Buick thus American.
I don't know where V63 you get your kit story from? I've known Pininfarina for years, the original company went broke and is now owned by an Indian company. I have tried to get into their archives without any success.
I have asked GM Archives but they don't appear to have anything on file? I often wonder why Cadillac continued with the '59/'60 Broughams by instigating the complex international aspect of their production. I also believe it's widely accepted man had considerable body work done to them having returned to Clark Street as complete cars.
My understanding is the 59-60 broughams were exported for assembly simply as a cost savings for Cadillac.
It was a win win as
pinin farina was in crisis at the time.
The affixed pinin farina tag mentions 'assembled by' pinin farina.
That was the only mention of Pinin Farina on the car.
"Cadillac motor car division" is on the body tag.
My understanding was that the cars were all Cadillac except assembled and finished by pinin farina. That's why I thought the word 'kit' was a good fit .
I owned 1960 brougham #21 (white, with all white leather, grey dash and carpet)
it was sold new to the owner of a BBQ place in Tucson Arizona called Jacks BBQ. Popular in the 1940's jack
Had the means to buy such a car by 1960. His son ended up with the car and it was pretty neglected by the time I got it. I sold the car to a trucking company owner in NJ. That's been 20 years now.
For what I read over the time about those Brougham models, I have the same opinion than Paul: the body was not done in the US, but mainly in Italy. However, frame, floor and other elements came from the US. Exporting a CKD kit to reimport the finished car is not making sense. It was approximatively the same with the Allante: many parts were done in Italy/Europe, therefore hard to find now.
I did some research on the data base and found this excerpt:
"The Cadillac chassis and other usable hardware [crated separately] were shipped to Genoa, Italy (located about 100 miles west of Turin). There (in Turin), the bodies were hand-built and mounted in the new Via Lesna industrial complex covering about fifteen acres. In his recollections about the 1959 Eldorado Brougham, Pierre Ollier, who was closely associated with its design..."
I had completed quite a bit of research on these cars at the time (20 years ago) that had I owned one and I seem to remember seeing factory images of the parts as they were sent to Italy, specifically the front fender 'pieces' which were 4 or 5 separate stamping?
I do know the 57-58 fenders were composites of several stamping brazed together and leaded. The front fenders were bolted (5 ? each side) each to the front header and that seam leaded in.
I did not know that the actual construction of those 59-60parts were all done in Italy? The stamping? To include the body shell? Roof section?
Do I remember a book on Pinin Farina history?
Mr V63 who are you? This is incredible. The car I am discussing is 1960 Brougham #21. It was in Antwerp for many years and I believe it still might be? What are the odds of that happening?
Brougham #21 was in a very dear friend's workshops over 2014 & '15. There are many detailed pictures of complex alterations to both the Cadillac supplied chassis and much of the body that is out of view. We came to the conclusion that they reinforced the chassis enormously, half-inch thick steel plate because the Italian built body was simply not strong enough to stop body-flex and things like jammed doors or shattered glass. I've seen poor coach building give both of these problems? Finally, the rear quarter window slide backwards if you remember, the cavity and mechanism are all hand made.
The other European oddity that Fisher-Fleetwood did not use were those little triangular shaped rubber pieces attached to door ends, the door jam had (usually) a chrome female screwed on the B and C posts in order that the doors lined up when closed. They were made by Brevettato
It was #21 that had other numbered parts from car #19 and #28 as well? How does that work I wonder?
It had interior courtesy lamps that had been altered, edges ground off then re-plated.
Sadly my dear friend passed away very young. I'll need to do some research to find the car again.
Paul
#21 appeared all original when I acquired it, albeit very neglected.
Did not look like a car that I would suspect any modifications were made post production.
If memory serves I believe the guy that bought the car was from "meridian trucking" or freight? He was from NJ.
Hello V63
I'm not suggesting the car was altered after production, the work we photographed was how Pininfarina built her in the first place.
Do you still have any pictures of #21? What colour was the car when you had it?
I've located the owner.
It was probably the original white paint what was left of it. Original white leather interior ...what was left of it .
Yes I can see remnants of white leather in some of the pictures.
Still waiting to hear from the owner about his interest in selling?
This thread got a bit de railed from the '55 Barritz but has some very interesting info about the '59/'60 Broughams!
Is it true that one of the '59 Broughams was dropped into the bay while being offloaded from the ship coming from Italy? Or was that an old wives tale? I forget where I had even heard that...
My understanding it sank in the USA? It was just the frame. so an extra was made in 1960 to fulfill the contract of 200.
My understanding was the bodies were built in Italy and shipped back to Clark Street for installation of the chassis and final assembly and that the body fell into the water as it was being offloaded.
I'm not quite sure why we're going around the houses with this '59/'60 Eldorado Brougham question?
The chassis with suspension and drive train were shipped to Italy. Some body parts were sent as well. We have no evidence either way on the interior? I know someone who had the upholstery off the frames himself and he was doubtful it had been put together at Fleetwood?
Completed cars were returned to Clark Street and yes many, some, required extra work to get them to Cadillac standards. There is a picture of completed '59/'60 Broughams at Pininfarina in Italy.
I was in contact with the shop in Belgium when #21 was being worked on and have a few photos of the car there. Seems he was doing 2 cars at the same time and the body numbers were close together.
Hello Dave, sorry I missed your post. You're talking about Tim in Antwerp regarding #21 and I believe #22? Sadly Tim, a dear friend, passed away in 2016. So young, not fair.
I know where #21 is and it might be for sale? I'm struggling now to get a reply. What happened to the other car I'm not sure? I try to keep track of them.
I have Tim's pictures of the work done so far, we were going to put together some kind of Authenticity Manual, events prevented that. It's his pictures that show us how parts from a regular body were altered.
I track the cars as well. I show #6 as parts car that was part of the package w/#21 in Belgium. #24 was the other car being done at the time. No info after it being at Tim's place. #22 is in Florida.