I'm trying to figure out what years these water pumps are supposed to be. I have 7 of them, all are the design for the 331, 365, and the 390. There are small differences between some, but I'm not familiar with the peculiarities of each year.
Can anyone help me out with this?
Thanks for whatever assistance you can provide.
Rick
Pump number 1, preliminary IDENTIFICATION, '58-'62
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Pump number 2, preliminary IDENTIFICATION, '58-'62
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Pump number 3, preliminary IDENTIFICATION, '58-62
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All 3 of these seem to be the same. And they all have a really thick hub for the fan to bolt to. They're about 1/2" thick. The first two have the same casting number, the third one is a different number. They all have two threaded holes for a heater hose on the back.
Pump number 4, "IDENTIFIED" as '54-'56
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Pump number 5, IDENTIFIED as a 1956
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Pump number 6, IDENTIFIED as '54-'56, possibly for a series 75 or 86.
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These 3 pumps appear to be the same except that pump 6 also has 2 extra threaded holes in the upper water passage. They all have a thinner hub thickness as well, more like what you would have on a small block Chevy.
These each have one outlet just above where the lower hose connects, and one just below the thermostat on the back that comes out at an angle towards the right side.
Pump number 7, preliminary IDENTIFICATION, possibly '49-'53?
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This pump has only one threaded hole for a heater hose just above the lower radiator hose. The hub is also the thinner one.
Hi Rick. It is difficult to say as for the most part, the figures shown don't appear to be part #s but casting numbers. I believe the blue one bearing number "1484403" is for a 1956 Cadillac. While I had some trouble making out the numbers due to casting clarity and the effect of shadows which can distort the image, if that is the number then it matches what is on my car. Hope this helps, somewhat. Clay/Lexi
I kind of suspected that. Pump number 5 has another cast number on the upper water passage of "C56", which I took to be for a 56 Cadillac. But I figured I'd just double check that. I didn't want to assume that's what it was and find out later I was wrong.
Thanks for the verification.
I was hoping that the heater hose nipple outlet locations and direction they pointed would help pin down what year they are.
I've seen other threads where someone was asking about that specifically, so I figured that was the key.
The one with the extra two holes pointing upwards in the upper water passage I would think would be easier to figure out. Of the 7, it's the only one with those.
Anyone else have any ideas about this?
Rick
Those first 3 pumps have two heater outlets/nipples on the back. The one on the right side points straight back towards the intake manifold, and the one on the left side points to the left side of the engine and looks to run parallel with the upper water passage.
You can see it best on pump number 3.
These are also the only ones that have the extra thick fan hub. I don't know why they made those so thick, except maybe for air conditioning with a bigger fan blade?
So pumps 4 and 5 are identified as being for a 1956 365.
Pump 6 could possibly be as well, but I'm thinking maybe it's for a 57 because of the extra outlets in the upper water passage. Maybe those are for sending units or something?
As far as I know the '56 pumps have that very large dual brass and steel fitting on the pump's LH side, (driver's side). Think it is for heater core flow, but not 100% on that. Fairly certain they are not on earlier pumps which have a single smaller, diameter fitting there, (unless AC dictated otherwise perhaps?). Believe I have a rebuilt 1955 pump here with the small fitting style that I believe is OEM. Based on visuals it appears to be a unit that would carry less coolant flow than the dual brass/steel fitting I described on the '56, as a smaller inner diameter and only one outlet. The 1956 pumps that I have seen also have "C56" cast into the upper galley arm, LH side. My '55 (going from memory) has "C55" cast there instead. Perhaps that denotes Cadillac as well as the respective year? If you have identical pumps except they lack those C55 and C56 casting numbers, perhaps they were earmarked for other GM products? Does anyone know if there is a manual that identifies casting numbers for such parts? I think once I saw a post that listed either engine block or cylinder head casting information, but not sure where that was sourced. Clay/Lexi
I think 57 Pumps have the lower radiator hose on the oppsite side of the engine. One year only.
The pumps with the extra pipe fittings are for series 75 and cc. and maybe after market (universal fits?)
I have a 1464408 on my '55. The plugged tapped hole (on the back of the blue pump) is for the transmission cooler/heater line on cars equipped with the transmission cooler/heater. Cadillac part numbers starting with 146 were created around 1953 for use on '54 cars. Most of '58 Brougham has 146 part numbers, but the majority on that car are carry over '57 Brougham parts.
Note: the plugged tapped hole is for the heater flow inlet on the ranco valve.
Here are a couple of shots of what I believe is my 1955 Cadillac water pump. It bears casting number #1482531". Note the small port (possible return line) bottom LH portion of image #1. The upper casting identifier (image 2) shows "C55". Again, is this an identifier for Cadillac 1955? My 1956 pump says "C56". I know that this will fit my '56 as it was rebuilt for installation on my car until it was noticed that it had the small return port. As '56s were known for running hot, I thought it better to keep the larger inner diameter return ported pump unit on my car. As for those models in 1956 being only outfitted with the larger port being on S75 and Commercial cars, I am not sure. In a recent, related post, a knowlegeable CLC member with a '56 Caddy commented on this fitting and implied his vehicle had the same, (although I am certain that his car is a Series 62). Long story short, I don't know if only the S75s & Commercials had water pumps with the larger "return" fitting. The OP in the aforementioned thread also has a '56 but did not mention what Series his car is. Law of averages would suggest it was probably also a S62. That said, after nearly 70 years with repairs and parts being swapped out, who knows if their water pump is what really came with their car originally? My last image (#3) is a shot of the larger spare port discussed, from my collection. Clay/Lexi
Interesting points by David on those parts numbers. Further to my above post, the 1956 Cadillac Master Parts List notes that "Water Pump Complete" for 1949 - 1955 Cadillac cars, are the same unit. "When exhausted use" ...the 1956 pump. That said, there was a notation that for 1954 cars with AC to also order a nipple and tee (2 different part numbers). 1955 not mentioned in this upgrade. For 1956, model years 1949 - 1956 again quoted with only the mention of "Less pulley" and on AC cars to "...remove fan hub from shaft". This is probably because AC equipped cars came with a triple pulley unit for the extra fan belt (to run the AC compressor). Also, longer connecting bolts used. Both OEM 4 bladed as well as the secret warranty 6 bladed hub fans will fit, speaking from experience. There is no mention of the need to order a different "nipple and tee" for 1956 AC equipped cars, so I would assume all pumps came with the same attachments (except the AC vs non-AC fan hub). This is the new part number said to replace the 1949 - 1955 water pump part number when exhausted. So aside from a botcher getting at your car and putting God only knows what on your engine, it sounds reasonable that some pre-1956 Cadillac cars may have been fitted with the 1956 pump either in (late?) 1955 or even earlier models when serviced for a cooling issue and the water pump was changed. I did not note any special considertation for S75 or Commericial cars. That said, with all of the extra length of heater hose that run to the rear seat heaters (if so equipped), may have called for some change? Perhaps in their somewhere, but did not see it at the time of writing. There are some notations in the Accessories section (AC) that may challenge some of this, though I am a little embarrassed to say that I am not sure what exact parts they were refering to. Hope some of this makes sense. :-\ Clay/Lexi
Lexi,
Your 3rd photo is the fitting for the trans cooler that goes to the heater core and trans cooler. A special part/fitting.
That makes sense David. Just not sure if output or return, any idea? What do you think? The MPL seems to say all '56 water pumps came with it. Does your water pump have this fitting? Clay/Lexi
Okay!!! Clay, David, Caddyholic, thank you all for the information on these. I'm definitely kornfused now!!
First off, Clay, I believe that double fitting you show would almost have to go on the inlet side of the water pump just because of it's size. Right above the lower hose, but I'm just guessing here. The reason I think this is because of the limited space behind the pump/thermostat area.
David, the extra outlet holes in the upper water passage you think are for a series 75 limo and/or a commercial chassis. What would they allow for, extra heaters for the rear compartment?
That makes sense. I guess these would be nice too for someone wanting to add a mechanical gauge or an electrical temp sensor for a backup gauge.
Caddyholic, I looked at my service manual for a 57, and you are right, the 57 lower hose connects on the right side. So I can rule out that year for any of these.
About those thicker hubs, why would some have that? Does it move the pulley out farther if you don't have A/C?
Rick
Some differences between pumps 1-3 and pumps 4-6.
Pumps 1-3 have no heater return inlet just above the lower radiator hose connection.
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Pumps 4-6 have a heater return port above the lower radiator hose.
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On pumps 1-3 the heater return port is below the thermostat but not in that passage. It has a separate passage that you can see from the front of the pump. My cane is pointing to it.
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On pumps 4-6, that front passage is not there, as my cane indicates the spot.
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On pumps 1-3 the heater inlet port is indicated here, below the thermostat on the right side of the pump.
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On pumps 1-3 the heater supply port is below the thermostat on the left side and is connected to the upper water passage as indicated.
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For pumps 4-6, the heater supply port is still below the thermostat but on the right side and points off to the rear at an angle, as indicated by my cane. On this particular pump, the fitting has been removed, but you can still see the port.
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Here's a shot of both types hub-to-hub for comparison. 1-3 all have the thick hub, and 4-6 all have the thinner hub.
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On the hubs, the only thing that I can see is that it was reshaped for the 4-6 pumps, because the leading edge of each is the same distance from the pump. The thinner one just has a taper to the back side.
Rick
I am 99% sure the thicker flange is a AC car pump. It is on a 61-62
Interesting Cadman-iac. Seems that no special consideration was given to S75 or Commercial cars as far as I can see, at least for 1956. No mention of rear seat heaters impacting this either, but would have to dig more to be sure.
The MPL notes that Cadillac water pumps were the same from 1948 - 1955, with the 1956 unit being used when older parts were "exhausted", for servicing older Cads as required. There are some replacement parts noted in the Automatic Heating Section of the MPL, but sadly no comprehensive diagram. Section 6 implied that the 1956 pump was installed/replaced as a "complete" unit. Can't say for sure that I found a listing for that large fitting though for 1956. But there is a notation in the Automatic Heating Section that COULD be it. Perhaps it was required for cars ordered with heaters as the 1956 Cadillac Data Book lists the "Cadillac Heating System" under optional equipment. Lots of cars were ordered with heaters, so perhaps your "C56" was one of those sold in an arid state where a heater was not ordered so no extra fitting on the pump? The abundance of heaters in our cars may explain why so many '56 water pumps have that large fitting? Reasoned speculation as the Data Books goes to some length to explain that the system was re-designed for better circulation (enlarged water passages and other items noted).
So if we accept the 1484403 casting number as being from 1956, (I think OEM on my car) with "C56" perhaps being another identifier for that year, you appear to have 2 1956 Cadillac water pumps, one equipped with the large fitting and one without, as possibly explained by my Heater accessory notation above. Two down and how many to go? Have to ponder your other questions, but Caddyholic's comment on those hubs seems reasonable as the triple grooved AC pulley is heavy cast iron while the double belt style for non-AC cars is lighter weight stamped metal. Perhaps the added weight of the triple groove pulley required a more substantial mounting flange? Clay/Lexi
Now to throw a wrench into the works, I went out and checked each of my cars to see what was on them, as they are all different, thus my kornfusion with all this.
This is what is on my 55 parts car. It's the same as pumps 4-6, but it also has the extra ports on the top passage like pump 6. I wasn't able to get a good shot from the front because I have parts sitting in front of the car, but you can see the ports in these shots.
This is the heater supply port. And one of the extra ports is visible.
Preliminary IDENTIFICATION, '54-'56 , series 75, 86?
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The heater inlet port, or return port I guess would be the correct term.
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It doesn't have any casting numbers, but it does have a number stamped on the front, 30221. It also has the thinner hub.
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The pump on the engine I got with the 56 CDV that turned out to be a 62 390 is the same as pumps 1-3. Except that it has the heater return port above the lower radiator hose, and the one just below the thermostat,with the passage visible from the front, but the heater supply port is still below the thermostat on the left side. It's like a universal pump that works for both of the other types of pumps. The return port just above the lower radiator hose connection is more squared off and even with the two bolts that mount it there. The other pumps sit at a slight upward angle. Very strange!
Preliminary IDENTIFICATION, '62?
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On my 56 SDV parts car with the original engine still in it, it has this pump. It's the same design as pump 7 in my first post, but it also has the extra ports on the top passage.
Preliminary IDENTIFICATION, '49-'53 series 75, 86?
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As you can see the heater return port above the lower hose is at an upward angle.
This and the two ports on top are all it has. There are no ports below the thermostat.
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The top ports are used, but is this correct?
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So with 10 water pumps in my collection, and probably 6 distinct differences between them, I have absolutely no idea which fits what.
Rick
Yeah, about that water pump pulley!!
I have one that came with the engine I got with the Coupe Deville, and it's a really heavy cast part with a super thick center hub section and an extention for the fan blade to sit on. The center is 1.215 inches thick!! It even has balancing holes drilled into the front face on the outer edge. This damned thing would act like a flywheel!! A sudden change in engine speed would severely stress the belts, lol!!
It would move the fan blade forward like a spacer would like what was used in later years.
Here's a few pictures of mine.
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Another question. What did the original 56 crank pulley look like for an A/C car? Was it stamped steel, or cast?
My SDV has A/C and has a stamped pulley, but I got a cast pulley from another 56 parts car. Which is correct? Both are 3 groove.
Rick
Clay, you mentioned that your 56 pump has the thick hub on it, but the pump I have with the C56 on it has the thinner hub.
Would the difference be because of air conditioning?
Rick
Caddyholic,
What style of pump is on your '62? Can you see if it's got the extra passage on the front with the heater return port just below the thermostat on the right side? Or does yours have the return port just above the lower radiator hose?
I guess unless someone has a listing of casting numbers and applications, this is just passing in the wind. But it would be nice to know what this stuff is supposed to fit.
Rick
To identify all of these I think we would require a casting listing as well as information as to what was available from an after market perspective, which I don't have. They may not all be OEM. Some may also have been re-worked at a later date. About all I can do is decipher what is in the MPL in which I only consulted one from 1956 as I thought there were a couple of those in your parts collection, (which also compared favourably with what is on my car-that provided a start). Still was a lot work to research. As the above posts note, it is not as clear cut as we would like. Even in my case I was surprised to learn that some 1956 water pumps apparently lacked that large fitting, perhaps explainable by way of what options a car may have rolled off of the assembly line without. But that is still reasoned speculation and not 100%. So identifying them all would require a similar approach by those with the knowledge to explain the oddities you mentioned, (in the absence of other detailed reference material). Could be a daunting task. :( Clay/Lexi
Would this be something you could find out in the authentication manual, or whatever it's called?
Rick
Yes Rick, that is the unit I was refering to. Yours appears to be a 1956 fan hub for an AC equpped car. Probably was used for more than one year. Right down to the drilled spots for balancing. The light weight non-AC pulley did use a spacer between the shaft and the inside of the pulley, (so not visible). Believe it was aluminum and sort of cross shaped. So if anyone goes to install one without that, you would have belt lining up issues. As I recall my crank case pulley is cast iron as well. Will look for photos. Clay/Lexi
Can't find any images right now. :( Clay/Lexi
Quote from: Cadman-iac on January 15, 2024, 07:00:21 PMWould this be something you could find out in the authentication manual, or whatever it's called?
Rick
Identification of all of these units? Not sure as have not seen all of the Cadillac Authenticity Manuals. Now I can't find that. Clay/Lexi
Quote from: Lexi on January 15, 2024, 07:06:30 PMThe light weight non-AC pulley did use a spacer between the shaft and the inside of the pulley, (so not visible). Believe it was aluminum and sort of cross shaped. So if anyone goes to install one without that, you would have belt lining up issues. As I recall my crank case pulley is cast iron as well. Will look for photos. Clay/Lexi
My 55 doesn't have any spacer for the pulley, I took the pulley off to get pictures. But it lined up exactly with the crank pulley.
I also looked at the interchange manual I've got to see if it made anything more clear. But it was about as clear as mud.
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I apologize for the pictures being upside-down and sideways, I still haven't figured out how to correct that.
Here they are, a set of 1956 Cadillac pulleys, from L - R: 1) "Tallboy" 1956 AC installed fan hub with triple groove, (think this is the one currently on my car) 2) "Fat boy" non-AC double groove (note cross pattern in paint on top middle). That is where the spacer actually went, (correct my former comment). Spacer is gone but outline still there. 3) Cast iron dampner 4) Cast iron crank pulley. Shot 2 is a 1956 Cadillac press photo showing some of these in action. Clay/Lexi
Quote from: Cadman-iac on January 15, 2024, 07:43:35 PMMy 55 doesn't have any spacer for the pulley, I took the pulley off to get pictures. But it lined up exactly with the crank pulley.
Rick
Most of my cars and the ones I have worked on had AC. The few that were not, and had the "fatboy" pulley all had the aluminum spacer. Sitting here I cannot comment on your case. I could later search the MPL for it. Attached are shots of the inside and outside of the Tallboy and Fatboy pulleys from a 1956 Cadillac. Clay/Lexi
On at least one fan that I removed, the spacer was stuck onto the fan inner hub itself. So when the fan came off so did the spacer which stuck to the reverse side of the fan. Maybe it is there which may explain why you did not see it? Or perhaps someone shimmed the other components to line all up? Hard to tell from here. Clay/Lexi
Quote from: Lexi on January 15, 2024, 07:44:49 PMHere they are from L - R: 1) "Tallboy" 1956 AC installed fan hub with triple groove 2) "Fat boy" non-AC double groove (note cross pattern in paint on top middle). That is where the spacer actually went, (correct my former comment). Spacer is gone but outline still there. 3) Cast iron dampner 4) Cast iron crank pulley. Shot 2 is a 1956 Cadillac press photo showing some of these in action. Clay/Lexi
Yep, I've got 1 of each of those. Plus the stamped 3 groove crank pulley on the SDV parts car, and the 2 groove crank pulley on the 55. I just haven't pulled them off yet.
Since I have 2 different types of 3 groove crank pulleys, could the difference be because one is factory A/C and the other is dealer added A/C? Not that it makes much difference.
Rick
Quote from: Cadman-iac on January 15, 2024, 07:57:58 PMYep, I've got 1 of each of those. Plus the stamped 3 groove crank pulley on the SDV parts car, and the 2 groove crank pulley on the 55. I just haven't pulled them off yet.
Since I have 2 different types of 3 groove crank pulleys, could the difference be because one is factory A/C and the other is dealer added A/C? Not that it makes much difference.
Rick
That could be the reason. Perhaps one "stands off" more than the other, therby eliminating the spacer in one of them? Clay/Lexi
Or perhaps it was a stop gap measure to accommodate different specs in parts installed at the time of assembly...to use or not to use a spacer, depending on the parts available. Clay/Lexi
Quote from: Lexi on January 15, 2024, 07:56:09 PMOn at least one fan that I removed, the spacer was stuck onto the fan inner hub itself. So when the fan came off so did the spacer which stuck to the reverse side of the fan. Maybe it is there which may explain why you did not see it? Or perhaps someone shimmed the other components to line all up? Hard to tell from here. Clay/Lexi
I looked at the inside of the 55 pulley, no spacer there either. Not sure if it may have had one at one time between it and the blade. The blade was already gone when I got it.
I do have a bunch of different fan spacers I've collected over the years, and there's a few of those thin X types.
Honestly, I have only seen one water pump pulley that had a spacer between it and the pump, and it was put there in an effort to get the pump and crank pulleys to line up correctly. But even that was just a thin washer design.
Rick
Quote from: Lexi on January 15, 2024, 08:05:49 PMOr perhaps it was a stop gap measure to accommodate different specs in parts installed at the time of assembly...to use or not to use a spacer, depending on the parts available. Clay/Lexi
That's possible.
While digging through the stuff I stashed in the trunk of my 63 parts car, I found another water pump!!
I also found a couple other things that I can't identify, but I'll start a new thread for those.
Rick
Ones I have here as I recall are chunky. Will look for a photo, but don't think I got one on file short of searching through a pile of stuff to take a photo. Think it was like 1/4 inch aluminum, but I could be wrong. Clay/Lexi
Quote from: Lexi on January 15, 2024, 08:13:31 PMOnes I have here as I recall are chunky. Will look for a photo, but don't think I got one on file short of searching through a pile of stuff to take a photo. Think it was like 1/4 inch aluminum, but I could be wrong. Clay/Lexi
Yeah, the X types I've got are between 1/2" and 1". Not very thick.
Rick
The spacer is mentioned in the Authenticity Manual on page III-1 but unclear as to what pulley they were used on. I only saw them on the squat fatboys, (non-AC). Clay/Lexi
Quote from: Cadman-iac on January 15, 2024, 06:56:31 PMCaddyholic,
What style of pump is on your '62? Can you see if it's got the extra passage on the front with the heater return port just below the thermostat on the right side? Or does yours have the return port just above the lower radiator hose?
I guess unless someone has a listing of casting numbers and applications, this is just passing in the wind. But it would be nice to know what this stuff is supposed to fit.
Rick
I will look tomorrow.
Great, thank you very much,
Rick
Checked my 1956 MPL and under Group 6.0020 there is a listing titled; "Spacer, Fan Blade", part number 134 6795. This part was only listed for 1956. So I checked my 1957 MPL and found both a listing for a 1956 as well as a 1957 spacer-both bearing different part numbers. So something is different about them. They were intended for non-AC cars the notation further noted, (which has been my finding). I did not look past 1957. But 1955 was conspicuously absent. So this part was not existant for 1955, which would explain why you did not find one on your '55 Caddy. Clay/Lexi
Quote from: Lexi on January 15, 2024, 08:29:14 PMThe spacer is mentioned in the Authenticity Manual on page III-1 but unclear as to what pulley they were used on. I only saw them on the squat fatboys, (non-AC). Clay/Lexi
Where can I find one of those authentication manuals?
I just ordered a reprint of the 1956-1961 parts manual, so I'll have it for reference.
Thanks for all your efforts on this Clay, it's much appreciated.
My thanks to everyone who has helped to identify these pumps. We got some definite maybe's out of all this, with the understanding that apparently even Cadillac doesn't know what is what, lol!! Waaayyy too many options for something so simple.
Rick
Quote from: Lexi on January 15, 2024, 10:51:42 PMChecked my 1956 MPL and under Group 6.0020 there is a listing titled; "Spacer, Fan Blade", part number 134 6795. This part was only listed for 1956. So I checked my 1957 MPL and found both a listing for a 1956 as well as a 1957 spacer-both bearing different part numbers. So something is different about them. They were intended for non-AC cars the notation further noted, (which has been my finding). I did not look past 1957. But 1955 was conspicuously absent. So this part was not existant for 1955, which would explain why you did not find one on your '55 Caddy. Clay/Lexi
As I recall, when I got the 55, the radiator was still mounted in it, but I noticed that it sat farther back from the core support with the use of spacers about an inch and a quarter long. Big thick ones that looked like they could be used for leaf spring bushings, but made of steel with an outer diameter of around 3/4" or so.
I can dig them out and measure one if you want.
But that might explain why there's no listing for a fan spacer on a 55.
As for the 56 with A/C not needing a spacer, I can see why after looking at that 3-groove pulley. The non-air cars for 56 and 57, probably the distance from the radiator to the engine was a little different between them, thus the two part numbers.
Thanks again,
Rick
It is available through this CLC link Rick. Ad for the Authenticity Manuals looks different and hard to read, but they are there. To the best of my knowledge the latest one which is what I have is the 3rd edition. Clay/Lexi
https://gmclubapparel.com/products/cadillac-and-lasalle-authenticty-manuals?_pos=1&_sid=af615e70f&_ss=r
Odd as the MPL doesn't list them. Again, if they are Cadillac parts, then maybe they came with the fan and were not itemized? That might explain why there is not a separate listing for them. You had to buy the fan to get them perhaps. If you think they are OEM I would like to see some pics and measurements. Clay/Lexi
Quote from: Lexi on January 15, 2024, 11:11:17 PMOdd as the MPL doesn't list them. Again, if they are Cadillac parts, then maybe they came with the fan and were not itemized? That might explain why there is not a separate listing for the. You had to buy the fan to get them perhaps. If you think they are OEM I would to see some pics and measurements. Clay/Lexi
Are you referring to the radiator mounting spacers, of which there are 6, or a fan spacer?
I'll get pictures tomorrow and post them.
Rick
Quote from: Cadman-iac on January 15, 2024, 11:13:33 PMAre you referring to the radiator mounting spacers, of which there are 6, or a fan spacer?
Rick
Sorry. Must be getting tired. Cadillac'n is sometimes tough work. Those are different. Think I got some of those here as well but later ones. Clay/Lexi
Quote from: Lexi on January 15, 2024, 11:09:09 PMIt is available through this CLC link Rick. Ad for the Authenticity Manuals looks different and hard to read, but they are there. To the best of my knowledge the latest one which is what I have is the 3rd edition. Clay/Lexi
https://gmclubapparel.com/products/cadillac-and-lasalle-authenticty-manuals?_pos=1&_sid=af615e70f&_ss=r
I just ordered one, thanks for the link.
Rick
Quote from: Lexi on January 15, 2024, 11:15:31 PMSorry. Must be getting tired. Cadillac'n is sometimes tough work. Those are different. Think I got some of those here as well but later ones. Clay/Lexi
I know what you mean. I've been running around all day today and half the day yesterday trying to compare and remember all the various different details on these pumps. Very confusing!
Rick
Yes it is confusing and they can also be tough items to photograph. Clay/Lexi
Let me ask this of you guys, did Cadillac only use dual heaters on the 54-56 models, or were there any prior to these?
I'm just guessing here, but because both the 55 and 56's I've got had the heater hoses coming off the left side of the water pump, the heater return port just above the lower radiator hose connection is used, and the heater supply port is just below the thermostat on the right side and pointing to the right and slightly rearward like pumps 4-6.
Because they have twin heaters, TEE fittings were used to tie them together. One on the left side near the upper control arm if memory serves, and another on the firewall near the wiper motor.
On cars with only one heater, again this is just a guess, that port above the lower radiator hose connection is not needed, and both heater hoses connect to the pump just below the thermostat like pumps 1-3.
Pump 7, and the one on my 56 parts car (excluding the top ports on the upper water passage), have only one heater port, which is a return port just above the lower radiator hose connection. The supply port for the heater with these pumps must be on the block or one of the heads.
Which years had a fitting for the heater supply on the block or head and the return hose connects to the lower part of the pump?
What years did both heater hoses go under the intake manifold like what pumps 1-3 would have?
I'm thinking that's the key to figuring this out.
Rick
I supplied the Self Starter with a guide from a rebuilder on waterpump cores. The tech index in the directory says it was the Nov 2001 issue.. I will try to find the catalog it came from or that issue. It seemed very good.
Warren
Quote from: Warren Rauch #4286 on January 16, 2024, 09:22:09 AMI supplied the Self Starter with a guide from a rebuilder on waterpump cores. The tech index in the directory says it was the Nov 2001 issue.. I will try to find the catalog it came from or that issue. It seemed very good.
Warren
That would be fantastic, thank you Warren, I'd really appreciate that.
Rick
Quote from: Lexi on January 15, 2024, 03:38:13 PMThat makes sense David. Just not sure if output or return, any idea? What do you think? The MPL seems to say all '56 water pumps came with it. Does your water pump have this fitting? Clay/Lexi
Yes my car has the fitting. That is on the return line to the pump.
Quote from: Lexi on January 15, 2024, 07:06:30 PMYes Rick, that is the unit I was refering to. Yours appears to be a 1956 fan hub for an AC equpped car. Probably was used for more than one year. Right down to the drilled spots for balancing. The light weight non-AC pulley did use a spacer between the shaft and the inside of the pulley, (so not visible). Believe it was aluminum and sort of cross shaped. So if anyone goes to install one without that, you would have belt lining up issues. As I recall my crank case pulley is cast iron as well. Will look for photos. Clay/Lexi
54-56 3 groove pulley was a stamped steel version.
The 4 groove pulley looks just like the cast one and it came out in '57 w/AC. One year only.
The one shown is 58 to 64 and some special later versions. I will post some images later with all the data.
Here are some photos of my 55 during build. The pump looks to be a replacement '56 version. There are images that show the exit and return with the special fittings. My car is no A/C (not available in '55 convertible) and Eldorado's had the trans cooler standard. The block is different to as that is where the inlet of the water flow is to it from the trans cooler.
Here are some screen shots and images of various master parts lists. 56, 60, & 68 which shows the pulley, pump, and spacer numbers. One image of my 57 (used on '58 Eldorado Brougham only)
Quote from: David King (kz78hy) on January 15, 2024, 12:46:03 PMI have a 1464408 on my '55. The plugged tapped hole is for the transmission cooler/heater line on cars equipped with the transmission cooler/heater. Cadillac part numbers starting with 146 were created around 1953 for use on '54 cars. Most of '58 Brougham has 146 part numbers, but the majority on that car are carry over '57 Brougham parts.
Note: the plugged tapped hole is for the heater flow inlet on the ranco valve.
David,
I know it can't be seen in the picture because of the angle, but what looks like a plug is actually a reducer bushing.
So I guess the pumps 4-6 design could be for all 3 years, 54, 55, and 56 and be correct. If you are looking for one for originality for a 56, then the one with the "C56" on it is the one you'd want I guess.
Pumps 4 and 6 could work for all 3 years, and pump 6 would work for a 75 or 86 series as well if I'm getting all this right.
Anyone with a '49 through '53, can you tell me what style of pump you have and where the heater hoses connect to it?
I don't know if they would have had both hoses connect just below the thermostat and run under the manifold like my pumps 1-3, or if one hose connects under the thermostat and one just above the lower radiator hose connection like my pump number 4-6.
And anyone with a '58 through '62, could you tell me where your heater hoses connect to the pump and how they are routed?
My pump 7 is a real oddball because it has only one heater port, the return port above the lower radiator hose. What year Cadillac used just one port on the pump, and where did the supply for the heater come from?
Anyone who happens to have a series 75 or 86 from '49 to '62 specifically, what connects to the two ports on the upper water passage of the water pump?
I suppose that bottom line, all these pumps would work for just about every Cadillac from '49 to '62, but to be correct to a specific year, I'd like to know how you can tell one from another.
I'm not sure what I'm going to do with these at the moment, but if I decide I don't need them, I'd like to know what to tell someone who is looking if I've got the correct one for whatever year they are wanting it for, if that makes sense.
My thanks to everyone who has commented so far, and in advance for anyone who may respond to this.
Rick
David, I guess I was typing when you posted your last 2 posts. That's some good information.
Especially the trans cooler supply port on the right rear side of the engine block.
I have to crawl under my 56 parts car and look at the block for that port because it has a trans cooler on it.
The engine and transmission I got with the Coupe also has a cooler under the front of the transmission, but the engine is a 62, I'm not sure what year the transmission is. I thought it was the original 56, but I can't tell since it doesn't have any tags on it anywhere.
How many years did they put that port on the block for a cooler?
Just noticed that the picture of your pump is a 57. Thanks, I've never seen one before.
Thank you again for your help.
Rick
.Edit: the transmission is a 56,it matches the 56 parts car exactly.
David,
I just noticed that your 57 pump has that heater return passage visible on the front of the pump, like the ones I numbered 1-3.
If you go at this logically, wouldn't that be a design change that began with the 57 models, since we know that the 56's did not have that passage?
And that being said, we can say that the pumps 1-3 would probably be for '58 and newer?
And, if that makes sense, then my pump number 7, since it doesn't have that front passage either, but would not work for a 54-56, it must be from something between 49 and 53, right?
Just speculating, but it does make sense to me. What do you think?
Anyone else?
Thanks, Rick
David,
Thanks for the information on the block outlet on the right side. I crawled under the 56 parts car and sure enough, it has a heater nipple sticking out just above the starter.
The trans cooler is long gone but the hoses are still there.
Here's a picture of it.
20240116_123947.jpg
Quote from: David King (kz78hy) on January 16, 2024, 11:15:10 AM54-56 3 groove pulley was a stamped steel version.
The 4 groove pulley looks just like the cast one and it came out in '57 w/AC. One year only.
The one shown is 58 to 64 and some special later versions. I will post some images later with all the data.
Hello David. Are you sure the triple groove pulley (Tallboy) is stamped steel and not cast? I ask as there are a lot of disimilarities between both pulleys to question this. Clay/Lexi
Clay,
These are the spacers that were between the 55 radiator and the core support. They are 1" outside diameter and 5 of them are 1 7/8" long, the 6th one is 1 7/16" with a 5/16" thick additional piece. Not sure why one was 2 piece.
20240116_144020.jpg
Lexi,
There is only 1 A/C pulley (3 groove) listed for 54-56 in the MPL.
In 57, A/C cars got the 4 belt pulley (compressor had dual belts from previous years). In 58, A/C got one drive belt and remained that way going forward. Those were the 3 belt version and those I've seen on my own cars are stamped. I've included shots from the 60 Eldorado Brougham pump I had to rebuild and that was carry over standard Cadillac Eldorado engine.
The pump casting is the same as the other later versions in this thread.
The cast 3 groove pulley looks like the 4 groove version, but I can't say where it is used.
Quote from: Lexi on January 16, 2024, 04:56:56 PMHello David. Are you sure the triple groove pulley (Tallboy) is stamped steel and not cast? I ask as there are a lot of disimilarities between both pulleys to question this. Clay/Lexi
Clay, David,
I think you are both referring to two different pulleys. I believe David was referring to the cast crank pulley with 4 grooves on a 57, and Clay I think you are referring to the cast water pump pulley with 3 grooves on a 56.
The 3 groove stamped steel crankshaft pulley I have is what I had asked about because I also have a 3 groove cast crank pulley, and I don't know which one is the correct one for a 56.
Rick
I think we were referring to two different pulleys Rick. Clay/Lexi
Well now I'm Kornfused again. I just went out and pulled the crank pulley off of my 56 parts car with factory A/C, and compared it with the "tallboy" water pump pulley and the grooves are different widths.
Check this out.
Here's the original 56 crank pulley with A/C.
20240116_163231.jpg
20240116_163251.jpg
And here's the cast pulley I pulled from a 56 parts car a friend had.
20240116_163305.jpg
20240116_163315.jpg
And here are the two side by side. Notice that the grooves are no where near even.
20240116_163333.jpg
And here's the cast crank pulley and the "tallboy" water pump pulley. They line up perfectly.
20240116_163349.jpg
Now here's the stamped original 56 pulley and the stamped 55 water pump pulley. It's only a 2 groove, but you can see it lines up just fine.
20240116_163411.jpg
The cast pulleys do line up evenly with each other.
20240116_163349.jpg
So my question at this point is, what years use the cast pulleys? It's not the 56.
Rick
I "think" the cast pulleys are from a 62, because the water pump pulley came with the 62 engine that was supposed to be the original engine from my 56 Coupe Deville.
Since the water pump is the later version, it stands to reason that the pulley may be as well. But I'm still just speculating.
Can someone with a 62 tell me if your pulleys are cast or stamped so I can correctly label these?
My thanks in advance for any assistance you can provide.
Rick
Cadman-iac want me to pull my spare set out of the AC pulley with the crank pulley, and compare for you? Think they are an OEM matched set. Can't do right away, but can do if you want. I also have learned a new word over these last couple of days, "kornfused". Will come in handy for me just about every day. Lately more than ever. Clay/Lexi
Quote from: Lexi on January 16, 2024, 07:59:25 PMCadman-iac want me to pull my spare set out of the AC pulley with the crank pulley, and compare for you? Think they are an OEM matched set. Can't do right away, but can do if you want. I also have learned a new word over these last couple of days, "kornfused". Will come in handy for me just about every day. Lately more than ever. Clay/Lexi
If you don't mind going to the trouble, then yes, that would be very helpful.
It's been an uphill climb trying to figure out which parts are original to a 56. Pulling parts off a 56 apparently doesn't mean that you'll be getting 56 parts.
The guy I got my Coupe from swore he had the original engine for it, and for probably 20 years I thought it was. That is until I finally found out about this forum and learned a few things.
And a good friend of mine took me to one of his 56 parts cars when I asked him about a crank pulley for an A/C car. He swore it had the original engine in it too, and maybe it was, but the pulley off it was that cast one.
So yes, I'm seriously Kornfused!! Lol!!
Thanks for your help Clay, I really appreciate your input.
Rick
Quote from: Cadman-iac on January 16, 2024, 12:52:21 PMHow many years did they put that port on the block for a cooler?
Rick, 1957 cars had the transmission cooler like the '56 ones, but at a different location than 1956. The nipple on the block was like '56. From 1958 on, the transmission cooler was into the radiator; I suppose the nipple was gone. It could be that 1958 Brougham still had the nipple, but anyway Brougham cars are almost not relevant for most people.
Quote from: Roger Zimmermann on January 17, 2024, 03:35:00 AMRick, 1957 cars had the transmission cooler like the '56 ones, but at a different location than 1956. The nipple on the block was like '56. From 1958 on, the transmission cooler was into the radiator; I suppose the nipple was gone. It could be that 1958 Brougham still had the nipple, but anyway Brougham cars are almost not relevant for most people.
Hey Roger,
Thanks for your help on this. I had wondered when the transmission cooler was relocated to the radiator.
I know that the Hydramatic was redesigned for the 56, so it used an external cooler, but did they ever use a transmission cooler on anything prior to the 56?
I checked my 55 and it didn't have one, but from the information given in this thread, a cooler was "optional" for 56, so would that also be the case for prior years as well?
Rick
So here's what I've figured out about these water pumps so far from the input I've received. This is not chiseled in stone, as no one can be absolutely certain that what is on their Cadillac is 100% original, and if there is anyone out there that can say that for sure, they haven't yet responded here.
I reserve the right to be wrong, since there's been a limited response to my question, but I think I'm close.
So this pump design is what I believe came on the early 331 engines from 1949 to 1953. It has only one threaded hole for a heater hose, located just above the lower radiator hose connection. This is the heater return port. The heater supply port would probably be located on the block or on one of the heads, but this hasn't been verified since no one with one of these years of Cadillac has responded yet, so I'm basing this on what I have so far.
As you can see, there are no additional ports in the upper water passage or under the thermostat.
20240114_161542.jpg
20240114_161602.jpg
This particular pump is currently on my 56 parts car. It has two additional ports on the upper water passage in addition to the one above the lower radiator hose connection. There are no other ports, so I believe this one came from a 49-53 series 75 or 86. This pump looks like it was adapted to this car using the two top ports and only works because this engine has the additional water port at the rear of the block that supplies the transmission cooler. (See 3rd picture)
If the pump in the picture above were tried on this car it would not work, it is at least 1 port short.
20240115_125019.jpg
20240116_123947.jpg
This is the pump design used for the 54-56 Cadillacs.
This one also has the heater return port above the lower radiator hose connection, but it also has the heater supply port in the upper water passage below the thermostat. It points to the right and slightly rearward.
20240114_161343.jpg
20240114_161407.jpg
There are also two additional ports on some of these pumps, which has been mentioned are for the series 75 cars and the series 86 commercial chassis vehicles.
Here's a picture of these.
20240114_161638.jpg
This pump design is for a 1957 only. This year is the only one that has the lower hose on the right side.
The heater return port is located on the left side of the pump on the front.
The heater supply port is located on the rear of the pump. I will have to ask David for a picture of the rear of his pump to verify where the heater supply hose port is, but I believe it's in the upper water passage on the left side.
***This picture is courtesy of David King.*** My thanks to David for his response to this question.
Screenshot_20240117-064421_Samsung Internet.jpg
Below is a rear view of a 57 pump.
***Photo courtesy of Caddyholic.***
This is truly a community effort to sort out these pumps.
So in this picture you can see it has been redesigned for this year. It has two heater return ports, one on the front as seen in the first picture, and the second one below the thermostat on the right side that flows into the additional water passage on the front of the pump, also visible in the first picture.
The heater supply port is located just below the thermostat as well but it is connected to the upper water passage and points to the left.
There is a "T" fitting with another elbow for a hose that aims to be rear under the intake manifold, and another pipe that extends out to the left of the pump between the head and block ports, and comes out just above the front return port.
From what I've been able to determine is that the heater is supplied by the two front ports and the transmission cooler is supplied by the two rear ports.
download.png
My sincerest thanks to David King and Caddyholic for supplying these pictures without which this post could not have happened.
Rick
I think I need more information to continue this. I'm not positive about the 58-62 pumps simply because I'm not sure how they routed the heater hoses and in particular where they connected to the pumps.
I have a 56, a 57, and a 58 supplement manual, but I'm missing the 59, 61 and 62 manuals. I have a 60 supplement, and the 63 and 64 manuals, but these don't help. The 63 was redesigned and isn't relevant here.
The 58 supplement says that the hoses are the same as the 57.
What I need is the hose routing for 1959, 1960, 1961, and 1962.
Can anyone with these particular manuals please post a picture of how Cadillac ran the heater hoses?
I'm trying to set up a reference post for anyone trying to figure out what pump they may have or which one they need to find. But just speculation on my part can and probably would be incorrect, so before I steer someone in the wrong direction, please help me sort this out.
My thanks in advance for any help you can give.
Rick
Quote from: Cadman-iac on January 16, 2024, 09:02:42 PMIf you don't mind going to the trouble, then yes, that would be very helpful.
It's been an uphill climb trying to figure out which parts are original to a 56. Pulling parts off a 56 apparently doesn't mean that you'll be getting 56 parts.
The guy I got my Coupe from swore he had the original engine for it, and for probably 20 years I thought it was. That is until I finally found out about this forum and learned a few things.
And a good friend of mine took me to one of his 56 parts cars when I asked him about a crank pulley for an A/C car. He swore it had the original engine in it too, and maybe it was, but the pulley off it was that cast one.
So yes, I'm seriously Kornfused!! Lol!!
Thanks for your help Clay, I really appreciate your input.
Rick
Rick here is a comparison shot of a cast 1956 Tallboy next to it's 1956 cast crank pulley, as requested. All belt grooves match up perfectly. I have yet another set and compared those and they were also a match and also agree with what is on my car. These were installed on AC equipped cars. The non-AC cars used stamped steel pulleys in both instances. Clay/Lexi
Quote from: Lexi on January 17, 2024, 11:05:34 AMRick here is a comparison shot of a cast 1956 Tallboy next to it's 1956 cast crank pulley, as requested. All belt grooves match up perfectly. I have yet another set and compared those and they were also a match and also agree with what is on my car. These were installed on AC equipped cars. The non-AC cars used stamped steel pulleys in both instances. Clay/Lexi
Ok, in that case I have a matching set. But I've got to double-check the compressor and generator pulleys for the same groove width.
These cast pulleys have narrower grooves than their stamped steel counterparts have. I thought that my parts car had the wider grooves on the generator and A/C compressor.
And that begs the question, if the A/C cars used the cast pulleys, then did they also have a different pulley for the power steering pump as well?
AND, why would my parts car have a 3 groove stamped pulley? Could my 3 groove stamped steel pulley actually be from a 55?
Are you positive that your car hasn't had the pulleys swapped out for a newer year? Just grasping at straws here now.
Rick
As you clearly noted earlier, we can never assume that what is on cars of this age are OEM. Just have a look at a lot of early '30s Fords. Or Tri-Five Chevys. I have three matching sets of these pulleys, one of which I removed from a parts car that I thought was original. One set is on my car. The other came from an extremely knowledgeable buddy who stripped it from a 1956 Cad, (he had restored 4 of them and had three '56 parts cars). Is it cast in stone that these are as myself and my buddy believed them to be? No, but the evidence is strongly suggestive that they are. Tracing any available casting numbers or foundry marks would ace it. But where is that information? Answer: The Engineering files at GM Heritage.
More on water pumps. I checked my late '50s Hollander interchange manual and they as well list 1949 - 1956 water pumps as interchangeable, but noted that the '56 unit was different but could be adapted to work. Of note, is that they don't tell you how to identify these pumps. I think our collective posts have identified the 1956 water pump with a reasonable degree of accuracy though.
That said, your water pump with the missing fitting which I speculated might be for a non-heater ordered car is odd as it it appears to be not itemized in the MPL, nor noted in the Serviceman index. One would think all the 1956 pumps would be the same, with perhaps a blind plug used on a port not required. Some parts never make it to the MPL. Is this one of them? I don't know. Perhaps it is from another GM product which was used in the odd event that a buyer did not order a heater? The 1956 MPL lists Cadillac water pumps as good from 1949 - 1956 with some side notes regarding AC cars and nipple fittings. Hollanders seems to have repeated this info. No mention of S75 or S86 cars noted in Group 6.2050 (Water Pump Complete Section). As this is a daunting task it probably in part explains why others have not chimed in. The water is murky with few details.
That said, how do we know that all of the other pumps in your collection are even Cadillac to begin with? See mistakes like this on the net quite frequently. As Glinda the Good Witch said in The Wizard of Oz film, its always best to start at the beginning. For us, that would mean assuming that nothing on our cars is OEM until proven. With many of your parts having already been removed, God only knows where they came from. This identification process is frought with pitfalls.
On a happier note, attached are 2 images of the spacer used on the fan hub of the non-AC cars. While it is chunky as I remembered, it is even more thick, (3/4 inch I believe) than I first recalled. Perhaps this will clear up one more of your mysteries for you! Not sure about your steering pump pulley enquiry, but at the time of writing I suspect that they all used the same pulley. As per our much earlier email correspondence there were spacers used on that Left Hand engine side which I believe was dependant on whether car was AC or not, (still looking for one of them if they have since turned up in your parts stash). :) Clay/Lexi
As an after thought, this further illustrates that 1956 was the "bastard" year for Cadillac. So many one off and mistakes. I also suspect a higher number of swapped engines and transmissions due to the known problems with those units even when new. Another reason why these cars can be difficult to keep on the road as well as to maintain them as OEM. Clay/Lexi
Here is a picture of the back of 57 pump that I took from a CC car.
Here is a picture of a pump I got extra with my 61. The heater hoses connect to the back and run under the intake. This is the same for 62. This pump has a extra port on the front? That my 2 cars don't have. It also has a thick flange for the AC car.
Quote from: Caddyholic on January 17, 2024, 02:11:36 PMHere is a picture of a pump I got extra with my 61. The heater hoses connect to the back and run under the intake. This is the same for 62. This pump has a extra port on the front? That my 2 cars don't have. It also has a thick flange for the AC car.
As David and Rick noted, the '57 had a different lower hose location. I think the oil filler tube in '57 also was re-directed to point in the same direction as that water pump hose connection. Perhaps some of your photos can help Rick sort out issues with his pumps that may post date 1956. He sure has a lot of ground to cover. Thanks for posting Caddyholic. Clay/Lexi
Caddyholic,
Would you happen to have a service manual for either of those years, 61 or 62, and if so, can you post a picture of the heater hose diagram?
Thanks, Rick
This thread is super interesting guys. Too much info to wrap my head around! I'm curious to know how my water pump looks like in my 54. I did get some A/C parts off that one 54 Fleetwood, but unfortunately the original engine and the entire drivetrain was missing from it so the owner didn't have any engine parts or attachments like the water pump or the fan.
I had no idea about the water pump pulleys and the different sizes depending of it's an A/C car or not. Cadillac made so many tiny changes to things depending on the year and features the car had.
Like how the 55 Eldorado's had transmission cooler lines, while the other cars didn't? Is that correct? Again if that's true, that's something new I just learned! Lol.
Definitely lots of "one offs" with the 56's. Everything from interior and exterior trim, to the engine and transmission, the steering wheel, wheel covers, a lot of things.
I double-checked the generator and A/C compressor on the 56 parts car and both have the narrower grooves like the cast pulleys have, so I believe that the cast pulleys are the original type for 56. My guess is that someone in the past has changed the crank pulley with one from a 55 with A/C. The water pump pulley was missing when I got the car, but what was supposed to be the original engine from my Coupe De Ville had the cast water pump pulley.
The 55 parts car has the stamped steel pulleys for both crank and water pump, and I believe those to be original.
Quote from: 64\/54Cadillacking on January 17, 2024, 09:59:14 PMThis thread is super interesting guys. Too much info to wrap my head around! I'm curious to know how my water pump looks like in my 54. I did get some A/C parts off that one 54 Fleetwood, but unfortunately the original engine and the entire drivetrain was missing from it so the owner didn't have any engine parts or attachments like the water pump or the fan.
I had no idea about the water pump pulleys and the different sizes depending of it's an A/C car or not. Cadillac made so many tiny changes to things depending on the year and features the car had.
Cadillacking,
I would like to see what you have in your car as well. The more input I get the better, and hopefully the more accurate this will be.
My ultimate goal is to post a reference thread for anyone who needs to identify what pump they have on their 49-62 Cadillac, and what to look for when they are trying to figure out which one to buy.
From what I've seen so far, different ones can be made to work with a different year, but it doesn't make it right. A perfect example is the pump on my 56 parts car.
It worked only because it has those two extra ports on the top passage, so whomever installed it adapted it to work. Does it make it right? No, but who knows what they had to choose from and what information they had available to them when they were looking for a pump.
And honestly, I'm not even going to use the original engine in my car anyway, I'm hopefully going to use a 472 in it.
But as an old parts guy, it bugs me that there isn't a clear reference for these original pumps. And since I happen to have 11 of them in total, I thought I would at least try to figure out exactly what they are supposed to fit.
It's going slow, but it is going. I know more about them than I ever thought I would now. But there's still a whole lot more to figure out.
The 58-62 pumps are next if I can get some responses from owners of those years.
And I still have some questions about the 49-53 models.
I would like to get photos of the heater hose routing for each year specifically, as hopefully it will help to identify these. I only have service manuals for the 56,57, and the 58 supplement.
I need info on the 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 59, 60, 61, and the 62 yet.
It would be great if I could post the hose diagram with each style of pump to make it clear what pumps would work for a given year.
Thanks for your interest and comments, I appreciate it.
Rick
Quote from: Cadman-iac on January 17, 2024, 07:59:09 AMI know that the Hydramatic was redesigned for the 56, so it used an external cooler, but did they ever use a transmission cooler on anything prior to the 56?
I checked my 55 and it didn't have one, but from the information given in this thread, a cooler was "optional" for 56, so would that also be the case for prior years as well?
As David King wrote, the transmission cooler was used only on cars with dual carbs for 1955. All cars had the cooler for 1956.
1954 and older cars had no transmission cooler.
Quote from: Cadman-iac on January 17, 2024, 11:43:30 PM...so I believe that the cast pulleys are the original type for 56.
Seems so. You may be interested in learning that I weighed both the Tallboy as well as the Fatboy 1956 pulleys on an industrial scale, accurate to within 1 ounce over some 44lbs. Here are the results: 1) Tallboy 2570 grams (5.6 lbs) 2) Fatboy 1287 grams (2.8 lbs). So the triple groove Tallboy is twice the weight of the Fatboy, though in masss it looks smaller. I determined that the weight comes from it being thicker everywhere especially from the bottom of the cone (where the 4 bolts pass through to mount). The metal there I measured with a depth gauge and is a touch over 1 3/8 inches thick! Both inner and outer flat portions of this area are also machined on the pair that I checked as if done on an industrial lathe. So its original thickness was even greater prior to finishing as had to be trued to flat, perhaps around the 1.5 inch mark prior to cutting. Then the metal slims down a bit up the "cone" area, which also shows lots of evidence of lathe work to cut to a taper, (concentric ring cuts). The Fatboys depth of metal there is nowhere near that, and negligable (but is stamped steel). Doesn't seem to be any finishing work there. See Tallboy images for reference. Clay/Lexi
Clay,
Here we go again!! I measured my tallboy pulley and the hub center thickness was 1.215 inches thick, just under 1 1/4" thick.
It sounds like we have just uncovered another mystery.
Maybe this is why you found a spacer behind one?
Could different years have different thicknesses, or maybe it's the air conditioning issue? But the crank pulley position in relation to the balancer, and the generator pulleys don't have to be shimmed or spaced to accommodate air conditioning. Or do they?
I hadn't started out to decipher Cadillac's pulley issues, all I wanted to do was figure out the water pumps.
However they are linked due to their relationship to each other.
What have we uncovered?
Rick
Its not necessarily another mystery. I would think that most important would be balancing the unit so it spins harmonized and true. Cutting more or less off to effect true may be as a result of what "noise" was left after casting, (and how sharp a cutter was). More "hills and valleys" would necessitate more cutting to level. Perhaps that exhibited changes from batch to batch? I ran a company that did a lot of Architectural casting (though not metal), but can think of additional reasons that would be analogous to this. Would probably make for dull reading here. Also, the 1956 MPL lists the same part# for '54 - '56 Tallboys (AC) under Group 6.0245. So there should only be one such part, unless that changed in later years if Cadillac felt that a change was needed. I used a machinist's depth gauge to measure this and any deviations from others I would think are negligible as long as the unit is balanced (and the fan does not hit the rad). I suspect these measurements are "nominal" and there must be some acceptable tolerances.
Again, the answer, if available might be found in Cadillac's Engineering files at GM Heritage.
Also, as Cadillac experienced heating issues that year as evident by the Serviceman and Roundtable publications, did GM make small alterations to
cause the radiator fan to sit marginally closer to the rad to increase cooling efficiency? Speculation, but who knows.
As for the spacer, I have only found those used with the Fatboys, (non AC cars). So they are not part of the equation here. Clay/Lexi
What I was referring to was the thickness of the pulley center hub. But I guess the critical dimension is from the rear surface of the center where it mounts/mates with the pump hub, and the groove locations.
I was thinking the variance in the thickness would interfere with the groove alignment, but that would only change where the fan ends up.
I was looking at it from the wrong end so to speak.
Rick
My depth measurement was obtained using one of the 4 mounting holes, (see last image above in post #91). Clay/Lexi
Quote from: Lexi on January 18, 2024, 03:13:52 PMMy depth measurement was obtained using one of the 4 mounting holes, (see last image above in post #91). Clay/Lexi
Yes, that's the same way I measured mine.
Rick
When I owned Foley Architectural, we often ran into "hills and valleys" with our castings which prompted us to use more rigid molding mediums to increase dimensional stability and reduce our finishing processes and machining. Having spent decades collecting vintage iron as well as having been exposed to many, many tons of cast iron barbell plates as well as studying them; changes in sand casting for example, can create all sorts of dimensional anomalies if the mother mold is not properly prepared. When manufacturers began producing calibrated plates one began seeing many of the signs that the casting had been reworked to bring the product into spec. Not unlike the tool marks observed in these Tallboys. I imagine the differences we found can most likely be attributed to variations in trim, cutter sharpness, casting preparation and specification allowances that the rotating fan must fall within. So some variation is perhaps expected. Seems supported by the MPL as no other part is reported at the time. Then again, manufacturers have always had the right to make changes in order to improve their product (or to avoid liability issues). Are such changes always reported? Who knows. Clay/Lexi
Cadillac waterpumps from a Champion parts Rebuilder ID Guide 1972
Pump # Cast
W1202 1460222 49-54 exc 54 with Dynaflow
W1202A 1461288 54 with dynaflow , two outlets one each top of upper manifold
W1203 1462531 or C55 1955 outlet on thermostat housing 3/8"
W1204 1464403 or C56 1956 outlet on thermostat housing 1/2"
W1205 1465323 1957 outlet to radiator on right side this year only
W1206 1469500 1958 heater outlet on left side down by radiator outlet
W1207 1471373 Early 1959 heater outlets one each 3/8 and 1/2 "
W1207A 1473914 Late 1959-1962 Heater outlets two both 1/2"
The positions of the fan hubs vary some for air conditioned or not. The rebuild info in the shop manuals will give the details,if it is important to you. These are the varitions this rebuilder worried about.
Warren
Wow! That's really great Warren, thank you for that.
I'm guessing that the "W" numbers are the "in-house" numbers that the rebuilder assigned to identify the pumps in their own catalogs and for their distributors.
I'll go through mine and check the few that have a GM casting number on them and see if any fall into any of these groups.
Unfortunately, I realize that some of mine are probably aftermarket pumps, and as such, probably cannot be identified by the numbers, (if they have any).
But this is a great help, thank you Warren.
I'm going to ask for specific year hose routing diagrams in separate threads in an effort to try and pin down some of the various differences between the years and pumps.
I think some of the questions are probably getting lost in the length of this thread, particularly when I and others get sidetracked with related questions, such as the pulley issue.
That is a legitimate topic all by itself, and would benefit from a separate thread dedicated to just that as well.
And like I had mentioned before, I would like to see a reference thread for this that would help anyone who might have a question about water pumps for a 49-62 Cadillac.
Until I began looking at the ones I have, (11 in total), I had absolutely no idea that there were so many minor and major differences between them. And if someone was only looking at 1 pump, they would never know what they are facing if they were wanting to replace it.
How many parts people today can figure out this stuff with what they find in their systems? Probably none!
Even as an old GM parts man I never had anyone ask me for one.
But now I feel like I'm in a position to at least try to figure this out in order to help the rest of the Cadillac community who owns one of these great machines and would like to keep it as original as possible. (I know, I know, as I'm trying to fit a 472 into my 56, I'm one to talk,). (Bows head in shame)!
I'm amazed at the response to this question, it's been great. So please, if you can, help me out with pictures of your pump and the hose diagram for your car.
We will make a proper reference source for anyone with a need to know.
Thank you all,
Rick