Cadillac & LaSalle Club Discussion Forum

Hey! I'm new here and also (soon to be) new to Cadillac's. I bought a 1964 dodge 880 as my first car and am having to sell it due to frame rust issues. I think I'm gonna buy a 51' Cadillac series 62 as the replacement for it and I've got some questions about it. First; are these cars good highway cruisers? I'm talking about life in the fast lane 75-80mph style driving, not doing 5 under the speed limit in the slow lane. When I was driving the Dodge (still driving I guess) I didn't take it on the highway due to it not being held together very well but I fully intend to take this caddy on the highway and probably on road trips, namely hot rod power tour. It's also going to see a lot of around town as that's mostly what I do. This car is going to be my daily driver and I'm assuming that it's going to break down fairly often. It's nothing I'm not used to but I'm just wondering what parts are prone to failure with that car? Is it going to be stout enough to be abused by a 16 year old stock or is it going to need modifications to make it less likely to burn the rear end out doing donuts in a parking lot? Also, what's the approximate top speed of one? I really don't plan to go over 80 but the lead food will always find a way

G'day Connor,

Welcome to thinking about a Cadillac.

As for driving in the fast lane, you have to remember that when these cars were brand new, nobody drove at those speeds, simply because the roads were mostly bad.

Not saying that you cannot drive it now at those speeds, but I personally wouldn't recommend it, because of the poor braking, compared to todays' vehicles, plus, the car would have to be in perfect condition, suspension-wise, and as a minimum Radial Tyres.

With regard to brakes, you would have a very hard time pulling up if something went wrong, outside of your own car.   Everyone around you will be driving nose to tail, with you trying to keep back, to give you room to stop, but others will see the gap, and soon fill it.

If it rains, the Wipers will never keep up to allow you to see ahead.

Others will come in with the problem with parts and maintenance, but I wouldn't want to be on the road, travelling at those speeds with any old car nearby.

Bruce. >:D

Welcome, After owning about 40 of these Cadillac's from 1955 thru 1990 Brougham's I would caution you buying one earlier than a 1954. 1954 was a drastic change in many positive ways with regard to roadability. Honestly if you feel you have a lead foot I would recommend a 1964 Cadillac DeVille with the first year 429 engine and the new Turbo-Hydramatic transmission. I owned one and the car is amazing in the performance department. The 50's Cadillac's are not great hot shots. One Mans Opinion

I don't know on the 51, but our 55 does 70 ok. I have had it faster, but I usually drive it 60-65. With that said, it does that with no problems at all.
Please remember that these were made before highways, so they were never designed to go 80-- Not saying they can't or won't, but it wasn't in the design parameters.
I would not want to be in stop/go highway traffic with it.
And, as a parent, please remember- No seatbelts. I did put them in our 55.
Good luck,
Jeff

The Tassie,
Thanks for the info!
In regards to brakes, are there disc conversion kits for the front? I'm not super worried about tires/suspension stuff as that will most likely be redone anyway and tires are a must have. I'm familiar with the wiper problem as well, the wipers on my Dodge barely cover half the windshield and are still pretty bad at that. I do plan to convert it to 12v though which might help with that?

Bill,
I think you're dead on with the post 54 idea, I was looking for a 54-57 but couldn't find any 4 door ones within my budget. Personally, I like the 50's cars a lot more because of styling and the "bullet" front & rear bumpers.

Jeff,
70 is a fine cruising speed for me, I was just wondering if it could do 80 for longer stretches than just passing a semi or something like that. Not to say I won't cruise at 80 if the car can do it lol. As far a seatbelts go, I might install some lap belts.

Is 15,000 a fair price to be asking for this? My budget is about $9,000 would that be a fair offer?

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/1387189798820172/?ref=category_feed&referral_code=undefined&referral_story_type=listing&tracking=%7B%22qid%22%3A%22-3320670247787001362%22%2C%22mf_story_key%22%3A%226517218515029961%22%2C%22commerce_rank_obj%22%3A%22%7B%5C%22target_id%5C%22%3A6517218515029961%2C%5C%22target_type%5C%22%3A0%2C%5C%22primary_position%5C%22%3A9%2C%5C%22ranking_signature%5C%22%3A8559129721402185321%2C%5C%22commerce_channel%5C%22%3A504%2C%5C%22value%5C%22%3A0.85781842400797%2C%5C%22candidate_retrieval_source_map%5C%22%3A%7B%5C%226517218515029961%5C%22%3A111%7D%7D%22%2C%22ftmd_400706%22%3A%22111112l%22%7D

A 51 Cadillac is a great car mechanically.  Engine and transmission are very, very reliable.  Not terribly prone to overheating.  Like any car from the 50s and 60s, it has points-style ignition and a carb with a mechanical fuel pump.  Compared to modern cars with electronic ignition and fuel injection, these cars are less reliable.  But among cars of this era, the 51 Cadillac is rather good.

Electrical system is weak compared to modern cars (6v, with cloth covered wiring).  Can be made to start well and with fair lighting with some careful attention.  Vacuum wipers suck, literally and figuratively.  Around town, the car is a great performer.  The 2-barrel Carter carburetor is the epitome of 2-barrel sophistication and performance -- much better than the 4-barrels that Cadillac started using in 1952.

On the highway, you will find that the engine revs higher than you are used to at 70mph.  The transmission is not an overdrive unit, unlike most cars today.  Whereas new cars rev around 1800rpm at 70mph, the 51 engine will be running much higher than that at 70mph -- it is just geared to have a 1:1 final drive ratio.  The car was designed and built BEFORE the modern interstate highway system that Eisenhower built.  On the other hand, this engine was perhaps the best engine in the industry in 51 (and the Hydramatic was certainly the best transmission) and the car is capable of speeds over 100mph.

I have owned 23 old Cadillacs from 1949 to 1962.  My 1950 and 1951 sedans were among the very best performers as daily drivers that I have owned.

Wizard,
Thanks for the info!
I'm for sure gonna convert it to 12v for better everything really, better starting, ability to be jump started by a normal car, stuff like that.
I also plan to convert it to an electronic ignition of some sort and it's probably going to get an intake for two or three two barrel carbs

Just for kicks, I once took my 57 sedan out to see what it could do. It had no problem going past 90, however, at 80mph is when it began to "float" on me and it did not feel safe at all. This is after replacing suspension with the frame off resto. It has no problem getting up there, but as stated these were not meant to travel that speed for long durations. Drum brakes and lack of seatbelt is also a little unsettling at speed.

Quote from: dn010 on October 05, 2023, 12:34:15 PMJust for kicks, I once took my 57 sedan out to see what it could do. It had no problem going past 90, however, at 80mph is when it began to "float" on me and it did not feel safe at all. This is after replacing suspension with the frame off resto. It has no problem getting up there, but as stated these were not meant to travel that speed for long durations. Drum brakes and lack of seatbelt is also a little unsettling at speed.

I have a stock '49 (with drum brakes) which I've driven on many long trips.
While it can cruise effortlessly at interstate speeds, and I once had it up to 80 mph on a deserted interstate, I agree with what Dan Benedek wrote.
For safety, I've installed lap belts, a stiffer front sway bar and tend to keep a safe distance from cars in front of me,
but personally I don't feel the need to go that fast so it's not an issue for me.
Since you wrote you want to modify whichever car you buy to some extent, you might want to get in touch with the Modified chapter of the CLC (modifiedcadillac.org) for further information.

My 1956 Limo (which has the 3.36:1 rear axle gear ratio), seems to be happiest around 60 on the highway. Think this rear end gave the car better pick up when moving from a dead stop around town. At higher speeds it is not as happy. Got bias ply tires which track horrible compared to modern radials. Car will "float" around in response to road surface iregularities. Drum brakes are good for a car this size and age but no comparison to new disc brakes. I would not like to be in a situation where I have to do a panic stop at highway speed and contend with these brakes and tires when someone is cutting in front of me. Many other reasons to argue these cars should not be used as daily drivers. The National Interstate and Defense Highways Act of 1956, initiated the building of the interstate system only starting in August 1956. So when these cars were new they were designed for use under different road conditions. Insighful comments by member Bill Young above. From about the mid 1960s on there is a world of difference in how Cadillac cars performed, with those performing more like new cars. No comparison to the 1950s models which drive more like "old man cars" which is not a criticism. Just recognizing a fact. Not all cars are built for speed and performance. Jay's comments also make a lot of sense. Clay/Lexi

Quote from: Mowerhoarder on October 05, 2023, 12:03:33 PMWizard,
Thanks for the info!
I'm for sure gonna convert it to 12v for better everything really, better starting, ability to be jump started by a normal car, stuff like that.
I also plan to convert it to an electronic ignition of some sort and it's probably going to get an intake for two or three two barrel carbs

Conversion to 12v is doable, but not necessary.  I kept my 50 and 51 sedans 6v and they worked great.  "Upgrading" to 2 or 3 two-barrel carbs will be a downgrade in satisfaction, IMO.  The 51 carb is really, really good.

Dn,
That's good to know that it'll do 90, I don't plan to go crazy speeds on a super busy highway but I know I'll get curious as to how fast it can go at some point.

Jay,
I am also looking at a 49' and was wondering pretty much the same thing, I was leaning towards the 51' based on looks mostly and the fact it's a little bit newer, not that 2 years is a huge difference but still.

Wizard,
Pretty much the sole reason I want to convert to 12v is that I'm an idiot and will find a way to leave something on in the car that drains the battery and I'm 99% sure that nobody at my high school has another 6v car to jump it with. Maybe a jumper pack is an option? I'd definitely forget to charge it though.

You can "jump" a 6 volt car from a 12 volt battery without damaging anything as long as you disconnect the jumper cables quickly after the 6 volt car starts. 
Also, make sure all the lights, radio and other accessories are switched off on the 6 volt car before you hook up the jumper cables. 
The 12 volt jolt won't harm in any way the 6 volt starter, but it could damage the 6 volt battery and voltage regulator unless you disconnect the jumper cables quickly. 
My '49 is 6 volts and I've jumped it with 12 volts more than once.  As Art wrote, as long as you keep all grounding points clean the 6 volt system will perform well.
You would only need 12 volts if you were installing air conditioning.

It will exceed 90, I can't remember how fast I had it going at the time but that was enough for me and did not do it again. These cars make up for floating at high speed with comfort. If your suspension is good, you will barely feel anything driving on bad roads, over speed bumps etc.

Couple of other things to consider:

Since you say you're 16, I caution that these engines are very thirsty and fuel prices are not what they were when I was 16. If you start looking at 60's Cadillacs, they have even bigger and even more thirsty engines. I converted my 1957 from stock carb to an Edelbrock 650. Runs fine on 87 reg but I stopped putting that in the tank and started non-ethanol (even more $!), you'd be amazed at what unnoticeable damage the 87 does (gummed carb, crazy carbon deposits).

Not sure how mechanically inclined you are, but if you run into problems, it could be hard to find people who know how to work on these or even want to touch them since they can't plug something in to tell them what is wrong. On the plus side, they are not that complicated and there are only so many things that can be wrong compared to today.

Along with fuel, parts are no longer cheap for these old things. You used to be able to go into a parts store and they'd either have parts stocked or they could get them next day. Now they're more scarce, cheaper quality and higher price.

These cars are huge compared to today's vehicles. I have a 09 beater Altima and it looks tiny compared to the SDV. May be harder for those with less experience to pull in and out of parking spots, take corners and those sorts of things.

No catalytic. You may find yourself smelling like exhaust after a drive depending on the condition of your exhaust and how many leaks you have in the cabin.

Speaking of leaks – they like to leak water with 70 year old weatherstripping

Lack of safety features. You already know these do not come with seat belts, but there are no air bags or any sort of knee padding in these things. No warning lights to tell you your tire is low or the engine is unhappy. The older the car you go, you may not even get laminated glass. The wiper systems on these things are terrible compared to electric wiper motors. There are no blind spot detectors, hardly any lighting to show you're moving over with your signal on and hardly any mirror sight with just the one small mirror on the side.

If you don't get a car with AC or working AC, you'll struggle when driving round in the rain, trying to keep the windshield defrosted. No rear or window defrost.

Do not let me discourage you, I am definitely not trying to talk you out of it - I also started driving a classic car when I was just starting out but I am able to fix pretty much anything on these old cars. Mine was so bad I had to stand on the brake petal AND hold the gas down a bit to keep it from stalling anytime I came to a stop (before I restored that particular car). Just wanted to give a little bit of extra things that one may not normally consider or think about.

I think the 1954 Fleetwood Sixty Special looks to be a really complete car in reasonable condition. The interior seats can be redone with correct materials from SMS Auto Interiors.

Quote from: Mowerhoarder on October 05, 2023, 09:20:33 AMIs 15,000 a fair price to be asking for this? My budget is about $9,000 would that be a fair offer?

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Offer your $9,000.00 and try to get it for 10 or 11K
Bill Young

Yes it does look to be a reasonably complete car and worth the asking price. Even better if you can get it closer to your budget. Clay/Lexi

I say go for it. 

It seems you are adventurous buying a classic for a daily driver.  There will be draw backs but it will be an adventure.  I suggest if you do modifications, do only bolt-on modifications and save the old parts.  That way if you change your mind later you can allways go back to stock.

For parts, I would suggest a voltage regulator.  If you can swing it, I would get a spare fuel pump/vacuum pump.  I had to rebuild my starter solenoid, you might look for a rebuild kit for it since they are getting harder to fine.  Make sure you always use the original solenoid.  Aftermarket 6v ones won't work.

If I was you, I wouldn't be in a big hury to modify things just because you can.  If you drive it a couple months first you might have a different option on what modifications you want to do.

I would look at right away at the wiring.  Especially, in the engine compartment.  These old harnesses were not designed to be in service 70+ years.  The wiring in my '49 was a fire harzard when I bought it.  I changed it out the first year I owned it.  I would say if what you see looks bad, it is much worse when you really dig into it.

Enjoy your new venture into Cadillacing! 

Keep us updated on your progress.

Good Luck!
Joe

Ohio. I'd love to see what it looks like underneath. This one was not being used frequently at all, which leaves you to enjoy all the surprises - they missed cleaning the underside of the dash pad above the radio, knobs are not shiny from any use. Judging by what I see and their garage setup, I'd say they're flipping this one. Good luck.

Personally, I have a problem thinking of a 16 year-old driver trying to manhandle one of these cars at the speeds that is being mentioned.

Knowing how good I was at driving when I got my licence at 17, I probably wouldn't be alive today as one really needs years of hands-on experience
to save oneself, and others around at such high speeds.

Don't forget that if the 1951 Speedo needle is showing 80 MPH, the vehicle is most likely moving at a true 65 to 70 MPH.

Bruce. >:D  A retired Police Officer of 33 years, and seen too much of what happens to young and enthusiastic drivers.

Jay,
Good to know that, I did know that 6v starters are fine with 12v for a little while at least but assumed I'd weld the points shut or something like that. Happy to hear that's not the case.
I agree with you as far as the bolt on modifications only, I'm sure I'll drive it for a week and then decide it's fine and needs nothing and then put parts on it anyways lol. Those have cloth covered wiring right? The 49' I'm looking at has been converted to 12v and rewired.

Dn,
I'm very familiar with thirsty v8's, the Cadillac is supposed to get better mpg than the car I'm currently driving. I get 7 mpg city and about 12-13 on the highway. It's about $60-$80 a week for gas so anything can be better.
Also the caddy is about the same length as the Dodge I'm currently driving, about 18ft long and 8.5ft wide, with the caddy being 18 or so and 6ft wide.
I think I'm mechanically good enough to fix it myself, I've already done tons of work to the Dodge and I can for sure say that I'm looking forward to working on something better built, 60's mopar quality leaves a lot to be desired.
As far as safety features go, you only live once right? I'm pretty good with checking tires, fluids, stuff like that so it shouldn't be an issue.
I'd say that probably 90% of my driving has been done in that car so I'm more used to the old driving style than new cars (with the exception of speed)

Bill & Lexi,
Good info to know, I haven't really messaged the guy but I figured it should have quite a bit of new parts on it for what he's asking. Also looks to be in pretty good shape minus the weird color combo interior.

I should probably mention how much the cars are, The 49' is $3500, runs and drives and comes with a spare 331 and transmission that both need work, that could be good for performance stuff, just build the engine and transmission then drop it in the car.
The 51' is $7,000 and it runs and drives as well, needs some basic stuff like lights and wipers but otherwise is all good.
I'm also considering a 52' with something like 60,000 og miles on it. It's had the engine rebuilt and looks to be in pretty good shape but hasn't run in decades. I'm no stranger to getting stuff running after 15-20 years but 30-40 is a bit bigger of a jump.

Dn,
I kinda thought that too, just looks off for some reason, also a bit beat up for my idea of a 15k car

Tassie,
I am familiar with old boat cars and high speeds, definitely not gonna be going 80 on a crowded interstate but on an open freeway at night with nobody around, I'm sure I'll push that car pretty fast. Not to say I won't make sure its ready to go that fast first. Wheel bearings, tires, steering all has to be good for me to even consider going that fast. I am stupid, but even I know what pushing the limits are and also have no desire to break them. 

Quote from: The Tassie Devil(le) on October 05, 2023, 09:59:47 PMDon't forget that if the 1951 Speedo needle is showing 80 MPH, the vehicle is most likely moving at a true 65 to 70 MPH.

Bruce. >:D 

Yes, old speedos are often out when their calibration is checked against your GPS. Often as Bruce noted on the low side, and to to be out 10% or more is not uncommon. Clay/Lexi

The Speedos were never calibrated to show that your road speed was faster than what the needle showed.

Doing that would have brought the automotive makers into bankruptcy very soon after the cars were built

They couldn't afford the lawsuits from drivers that were booked for speeding.

These days, with electronics, and the need for complete accuracy in the readouts, it is easy to show the true reading.

Bruce. >:D

Come to think of it, of the ones that I have checked they were always under calibrated as Bruce noted. I imagine that would also affect your mileage calculation when keeping track of your mpg useage? Clay/Lexi

My standard advise is always buy the best condition car that you can afford. The cost today for paint and body work and Chrome plating is astronomical.

Bill,
I agree with you on that but I'm more into the patina look, Here's a picture of the wagon I have for some idea of what I like.

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/152837827902817/?referralSurface=messenger_lightspeed_banner&referralCode=messenger_banner (https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/152837827902817/?referralSurface=messenger_lightspeed_banner&referralCode=messenger_banner)

The 49' is deep green and has some flaking paint, not a big deal at all for me but could be for the next guy. The 51' has some good patina on it and sort of looks like a rat rod

A 12V conversion will give you brighter headlights/brake lights with a bulb change. Safety first.

A Gear Vendors overdrive might be an option for cruising at 70, but I personally wouldnt go over that speed in a 1950s model.

I also recommend a Restomod Caddy if you really want to daily drive it.
Thay are out there and some might be a good deal.

All good recommendations above.

In college, many many years ago my friend had a 50 Cadillac.  We drove it hard and it took it. Rode and drove like a dream. The constant high speeds did blow the head gasket on one side and the water pump. If you want to drive it hard I suggest a resto mod. At high speed handling and braking were a challenge. Guide yourself accordingly.

Jw,
I as thinking that as well, I work with mostly old mopeds and they're all 6v, converted many to 12v but those are far simpler than a car. The gear vendors Overdrive is definitely an option and might happen down the road. As far as resto modding goes, it's either keeping it's factory drivetrain or getting an LS and a 4l60E. I'd like to keep the factory stuff as LS swaps get pricey quick and it also takes the fun out of old cars in my opinion.

Michael,
Good to know, a head gasket shouldn't be a huge issue but if the block warps or it goes un noticed and fills the oil full of water, there's some problems there. It definitely is going to get a disc brake kit for the fronts at least, probably the rears as well. Not sure of there's handling kits out there but I may put one on even though it defeats the purpose of it riding like a Cadillac 

If you can wait a few weeks to a month and want a 57, I'll have my sedan deville up for sale soon. It used to be my daily for years, has a few small issues like a cracked passenger front window, small crack in the windshield. The "bigger" issues is it needs new seat covers, new headliner (seat covers and headliner are both there but ripped and the wrong color) and possibly a dash if I don't complete that before selling. Everything else is done.

Dn,
That's not a horrible idea, I do like the 55 and back front ends more but it might grow on me

Don't forget that when you are sitting in the car, you cannot see the front and back ends.

The only time that you can see them is when you are not driving.

Bruce. >:D

The 1957 option is better IMHO.
It will have more power and better brakes and handling, at least a bit.
For daily driving I would run an Eddy carb since you can find parts fast.
A daily driver? Here's what I would do.

An electric fuel pump is a must. On a switch.
Disc brakes all round.
Maybe a front sway bar that is thicker.
Seat belts.
Good headlights.
A 75 amp alternator. (See: Vintage Alternator for a retro unit).
Steel braided brake lines.
Overflow radiator tank.
An in-line battery cut off switch. (Not the cheap brass ones that wear out).
A return fuel line.
An under dash or trunk mounted AC system.
Tool and parts bag with extra parts and breakdown gear. Orange triangles, Fix a Flat, cables, Etc.

NOTE: One big problem with vintage Caddies is the brake lights. Compared with modern LED units, they are like candles. Luckily, most people's eyes will be on YOU, and not other cars. I would go with bright colors for the paint job.

https://forums.cadillaclasalleclub.org/index.php?topic=167253.msg511599#msg511599

There are drivers and then there are drivers. I don't know about anyone else out there but I learned (at 12) to drive a 1947 Dodge pick up with a non syncro transmission, so by the time I was 16 and driving a 1951 non power anything Buick Roadmaster, there were no issues with highway speeds or out driving my brakes. That said, anyone who currently has learned to drive and is driving a "modern" ( 1980 and later) car is going to have quite a learning curve with a '51 anything. Back in 1996 when my '66 Coupe de Ville became my daily driver I learned it's limitations and drove within them.
Greg Surfas

Quote from: jwwseville60 on October 10, 2023, 09:44:51 AMThe 1957 option is better IMHO.
It will have more power and better brakes and handling, at least a bit.
For daily driving I would run an Eddy carb since you can find parts fast.
A daily driver? Here's what I would do.

Good thing about my car is most of that work you list is already done - it has an Edelbrock 650 on it with 1" spacer, closed manifold crossover, all LED lights including headlights, brake lights, reverse lights and interior lights, modern fuse block, central door lock system with key fob, It is converted to an alternator, all engine vac lines replaced with silicone, engine mounted fan removed and electric fan added on radiator (never overheats in the FL heat), electric fuel pump, aluminum fuel line (no return line) so you don't have to worry about original rusty steel lines (tank was also "rust sealed"), I don't have steel braided lines but rubber brake hoses recently replaced, new master, new shoes, drums cut, rebuilt cylinders and rebuild booster, new tires, all hoses carrying coolant replaced including the ones to and inside the heater core box (what a PITA that was!), floor has new 80mil sound deadening material laid and new carpet. The engine was rebuilt, had the frame off to coat it and the underbody (no rust holes!). The list goes on and on. I have had this car since 2006. I don't want to sell it but my wife has been out of work for the past 8 months and that is the reason I don't have the time or funds to complete the seat upholstery or headliner and possibly the dash. Things that don't work are the wipers and original radio (has aftermarket head unit in glove box, center floor mounted speaker removed but has two 2X10s above front driver & pass footwells) like most other Cadillacs you'll find. I had rebuild the wiper motor but it failed and was going to go electric for that at this point.

Car is two tone (urethane paint): body is black w/ silver metal flake and roof is silver metallic/metal flake. Bodywork isn't the best but this is a great daily driver. These pictures are from January of this year while I was still reassembling, so the the driver mirror and front corner chrome piece were installed after these were taken, but to give an idea:

Caddy Kid,
I did learn to drive in a new car but all of my driving experience after that has been in old cars (pre 70's) so I'm used to drum brakes and terrible handling.

Dn,
That's a beautiful car and I'd love to own it. If I sell my car and it's still for sale, I will for sure let you know
 

Conor,
It seems you have answered your own question. If you recognize a vehicle's limitations and it's performance envelope AND  drive within it a mechanically "up to snuff" 51 can be a daily driver as long as your again, recognize the need to stick with the maintenance schedule as laid down in the owner's manual and the Factory Service Manual.
Greg Surfas

Cadillac kid,
I did I guess, I did still want to make sure there wasn't parts that were just completely obsolete or no upgrades for anything, glad to know that's not the case though!

So my speedometer on my '55 goes up to 110. They surely wouldn't put 110 there if it wouldn't do that! :) My '57 Continental Mark II speedometer goes up to 120 but the '56 model went up to 140. It seems Ford got sued for false advertisement since it wouldn't do 140 mph no way, no how. I'm not sure it could ever do 120 either. I did get my '55 Cad 75 Series up to 100 mph (slightly downhill) for a few minutes back in the 70s, just once! That was still with bias ply tires and the 3.77 differential gear ratio of the limo. Oh the fearlessness of your 20's.

Alright, place your bets on whether the 51' caddy will make the 200 mile drive back from Michigan on Saturday, planning to mostly take backroads and take it easy. Excited to finally (hopefully) own a cadillac!

Conor--- take some diagnostic tools with you.. I suggest an infrared thermometer (if you begin to suspect a clogged radiator), a  test/multimeter (if the engine dies for lack of power to the ignition coil), ignition points, feeler gauge, and condenser,  some starting fluid (so you can easily test for a failure in fuel delivery), some tire associated emergency road side repair materials, a good fire extinguisher, a box of wrenches and a membership to AAA. If you have all of that investment for your trip, you can be all but certain you'll not need any of it.  Channeling a safe and uneventful trip your way.   James

Thanks James,

I am for sure taking all that, multimeter, wrenches/sockets, atf, oil, diff fluid, brake parts cleaner, some bulk hoses, and a triple AAA card! And some rain x too to hopefully combat the slow wipers.

To say the least, that didn't go as planned. Didn't end up getting the car due to the brakes being so bad and it not really being in the budget to convert them. I figured that being a luxury car, a Cadillac would have boosted drum brakes but it's just all mechanical brakes. It's pretty much the equivalent of driving a modern disc brake car with the engine off and a dump truck pushing you. Previous to this, I hadn't driven a 50s car but was pleasantly surprised with how it drove and handled, good, smooth power and steering as long as you're moving. I never really understood "standing on the brakes" until I drove this thing and I now have a new level of respect for those who drive these on the highway and in the city with the original brakes. Surely these can't be THAT bad? but maybe I'm wrong. Either way, I hope to buy the 49' caddy and upgrade to either power drums or a power disc/drum setup. Where would be a good place to be looking for a power master conversion? I figure I'll try that with the original drums first then see if I need to go to discs or just keep it drums.

Quote from: Mowerhoarder on December 16, 2023, 07:51:12 PMTo say the least, that didn't go as planned. Didn't end up getting the car due to the brakes being so bad and it not really being in the budget to convert them. I figured that being a luxury car, a Cadillac would have boosted drum brakes but it's just all mechanical brakes. It's pretty much the equivalent of driving a modern disc brake car with the engine off and a dump truck pushing you. Previous to this, I hadn't driven a 50s car but was pleasantly surprised with how it drove and handled, good, smooth power and steering as long as you're moving. I never really understood "standing on the brakes" until I drove this thing and I now have a new level of respect for those who drive these on the highway and in the city with the original brakes. Surely these can't be THAT bad? but maybe I'm wrong. Either way, I hope to buy the 49' caddy and upgrade to either power drums or a power disc/drum setup. Where would be a good place to be looking for a power master conversion? I figure I'll try that with the original drums first then see if I need to go to discs or just keep it drums.

Those brakes are great when set up as per the manual. I have driven my 54 without the booster (when it was being rebuilt) and had no problem stopping the car. Power assist doesn't improve braking it just means you use less effort at the pedal. Those brakes on that 51 were badly set up/maintained.
Phil

Dn,
That's kinda what I was thinking. This car was (believe it or not) owned by a little old lady who bought it new and drove it up until she couldn't and it was passed down to her grandson who daily drove it and then sold it to the guy I was going to buy it from. I imagine the brakes would have to be pretty good to be driven by someone that light 

It really is a night and day difference between driving with brakes that are not adjusted correctly, leaking and worn out, compared to when you have everything new, cut, leak free and "master" adjusted. The brakes on my 57 used to be scary, so much that I was also looking into a conversion. A the time, a conversion was too much money. I just repaired and replaced everything. I had a few frozen wheel cylinders, I had a rear bearing worn to where it was letting the gear oil leak onto my brake shoes, some of which didn't even have the short shoe installed in the correct location.

I never would have known how great the brakes were on the car without doing that, I couldn't believe it was the same car after it was done. With all that said, it is a good lesson for you to learn now. Look for a car that already had the brakes gone through and paperwork to prove it.

Very good advice. Clay/Lexi

Dn,
That's what I was hoping for, the car has had a BUNCH of work done to it by various different shops and the more I think about it, the more I'm thinking they messed something up in the brakes. It does feel like the shoes are engaging alright but that they're just slipping, like there's oil on the shoes or something like that. I'm kinda reconsidering getting it now, we'll see how it pans out but probably won't be until after the holidays until I can get back up to Michigan and get it (this time with a Uhaul) 

The master adjustment on these cars take quite a bit of time and patience to do, something many shops these days lack. They want cars in and out as fast as possible. You cannot throw new shoes on and call it good. If there actually is a leak, you may be able to spot it by getting down with a flash light and seeing if the bottoms of the backing plates/drums have any evidence of seepage or dripping. I think the uhaul route is your best bet; not only can you work out the known issues on your own time without the pressure of a long drive ahead, you can also go over everything in more detail to identify things that could be an issue in the near future that you can take care of now before you're left stranded.

Dn,
I'm still thinking it over but I'm like 82% sure I'm gonna get this one, 100% sure I'll get a trailer if I do though.

Update: I got the car! I absolutely love this thing, got the brakes sorted with a "quick" bleed and it drives fantastic, replaced some bulbs and cleaned the whole thing with lysol and windex which almost got all the old car mold smell out of it. There are some issues though: the main one being the generato not really charging. I was told it was rebuilt but its just acting pretty odd. When I come to a stop, the gen light turns on and when I accelerate it goes off, not a big deal but sometimes when I'm driving the gen light turns on as the engine shifts and lowers rpm. Seems fine when I rev it and the light goes off and comes back down to idle, light stays off, then I put it in gear and the rpms drop a bit and it's back on. The guy I got it from was messing with some relay looking points contact box thing under the hood, I'm assuming the contacts on those need to be pretty clean. Anybody have any ideas of what's going on?

Quote from: Mowerhoarder on December 28, 2023, 08:08:48 PMUpdate: I got the car! I absolutely love this thing, got the brakes sorted with a "quick" bleed and it drives fantastic, replaced some bulbs and cleaned the whole thing with lysol and windex which almost got all the old car mold smell out of it. There are some issues though: the main one being the generato not really charging. I was told it was rebuilt but its just acting pretty odd. When I come to a stop, the gen light turns on and when I accelerate it goes off, not a big deal but sometimes when I'm driving the gen light turns on as the engine shifts and lowers rpm. Seems fine when I rev it and the light goes off and comes back down to idle, light stays off, then I put it in gear and the rpms drop a bit and it's back on. The guy I got it from was messing with some relay looking points contact box thing under the hood, I'm assuming the contacts on those need to be pretty clean. Anybody have any ideas of what's going on?

The generator light will come on at idle, it is not like an alternator.

The thing with contact points is a voltage regulator... it MUST be set with precision or you can create electrical havoc.  Generators (as opposed to alternators) must ''rev'' to over 1000 rpm before they begin to generate... the contacts on the regulator MUST protect the generator and the electrical system from connecting when the generator is NOT generating (when the engine is not turning sufficient ''REVS'' to generate power to the battery--thus your gen light comes on as your engine idles.  From what you describe, the regulator seems to set up just fine.  You might consider replacing the generator with an alternator... all cars produced after the mid 1960's have alternators... they charge batteries much more effectively and efficiently. Or simply ignore the gen light, test the battery voltage from inside the car with a simple digital inexpensive volt meter plugged into your cigar lighter.  Hope this helps, James

Phil and James,

I guess I didn't explain the issue fully, sorry about that, but the gen light comes on at idle which isn't a problem for me, the problem is that when I'm driving in town (25-35 stop and go) the gen light comes on when the car shifts and rpm lowers and it doesn't go back off until the engine revs higher (50mph or so)

If you want to keep the generator, I'd start by getting a new voltage regulator since who knows what condition or adjustments were made on the current one, and see how the car reacts with it.

Otherwise, look into converting to an alternator. I converted my car to one with an internal voltage regulator so you don't even need the external box anymore. Challenges are adapting it to the engine and the wiring, both of which are easy to figure out if you can make brackets and know how to read a diagram. You'll also need a custom belt size so once you figure out what that is, get a few of them for the trunk.

I agree with Dan, it sounds like the voltage regulator is not properly adjusted or is  defective. I would also suggest replacing the regulator. But before doing so, look in the factory shop manual for the voltage specifications and the procedure to test the charging system with a digital voltage meter. You may need to replace the generator and regulator as a pair. Be sure all ground connections are clean and tight. Check all wiring connectors at the generator and regulator for broken strands in the wire at the connector/wire joint. Hope this helps, keep us posted on what you find.

Well the generator issue is "fixed" at least for now, cleaned the contacts in the regulator as the cover was off it for a year or so and sprayed it with electronics cleaner and still didn't work, cleaned and sanded the wires connecting to it and coated them in dielectric grease and still nothing, whacked the generator and the cover with the handle of a screwdriver and the gen light went off and hasn't popped up since. It still works as it comes on when the car is cranking but I'm still a little skeptical. Drove it about 30 miles today in stop and go traffic with no issues so I guess it's fixed?

Very good! It sounds like the brushes in the generator were sticking or close to the end of life. The jarring from the screwdriver handle got them to settle down on the armature and make better contact.

Conor--- I urge you to purchase an inexpensive digital voltage readout device that will easy plug into you cigar lighter, so you can easily monitor the health of your battery and charging system, thus taking away the anxiety of not being able to start the car because of a failing charging system... suggestion respectfully offered to you, James

Dadscad,

I assumed something like that happened, just glad it's back working for now!

James,
Yeah I should probably do something like that, I did check it with a voltmeter and it's charging as it should so all good for now!

Also an update:
Was sitting at a stoplight and decided to "test" the brakes and pushed the pedal as far as it would go, popped a hole in the steel line and let all the fluid out. Was only a few miles from home so just made a very slow trip back using the parking brake and shifting to low gear to stop. Got to inspecting the brake system as a whole and decided to just replace all the lines, hard and rubber. I'm keeping this as a single reservoir master for now (or until I have to change it) and the wheel cylinders work as they should and it should stop pulling under braking with an adjustment. Also, the heater doesn't work, I have no clue how to separate the heater box to get to the heater core so I bought a shop manual to hopefully figure it out. What I'm having an issue with though is finding a replacement heater core for it, are they still reproduced? This is for the under dash unit and not the one under the seat. If they're still being made, where can I get one? Or if they're not made, could I have it re-cored like a radiator? 

" .... could I have it re-cored like a radiator?"
Yes.

35,
Sweet! Just gotta figure out how to get the heater core out of the heater box now

You should rebuild the wheel cylinders when you replace the lines. It is easy and inexpensive.They are probably binding on one piston and leaky or about to leak

Badpoints,
That's not a terrible idea, they were inspected tho and seem to be functioning so I'm just gonna let well enough alone for now

I just changed my brake lines on my 67 a couple of months ago. I used the nickel copper lines. I found flaring them a little tricky, but they are easy to bend.
IMG_0642.JPG

Badpoints,
That's the same stuff I'm using, just grabbed it from amazon? It as like $14 for 25 feet and fittings, I've heard that the fittings included are really terrible so I'm just gonna re-use the og ones

A word of caution regarding the cheap china-bomb lines you'll find on Amazon: 1- It does not state anywhere that the lines are DOT approved, meaning they could be thin in places and may eventually fail. 2- Those lines are actually steel with a copper coating, meaning they will still rust and may eventually fail.

These days I'm learning more and more, the consequences of shortcuts being taken by others and/or use of low quality parts.

Must make sure that you are buying the Nickle copper alloy and not just coated lines. I paid a little more and bought from JEGS.
Also the right size. I thought mine were 3/16" but they are 1/4"

Dn and Badpoints,
Yeah probably should've bought better quality line but it is what it is. I think the line is dot approved but honestly whatever, I'm just gonna send it and hope it'll be fine. I did get 2 rolls of it by mistake so hopefully one is decent, the lines don't really have to be THAT good and I can always just use the other roll and whip up some new ones in a day. The main problem is if the brakes go out, I'm gonna do some pretty rigorous "stress "testing before it hits the road. 

Update: Got the line in the mail yesterday, was slightly pissed that rock auto doesn't list a rear brake line for the 51' and that it's the same line as the front. Ordered a rear from Cadillac parts ltd. and it's the exact same part number as the rock auto fronts. Oh well though, guess I shoulda done some more research before I loaded the parts cannon! Hoping to start (maybe finish?) the lines today and throw on some front shocks.

Are we ever going to see pictures of this thing or what?

Breaking news! The brakes are done and working (for now), still gotta fix the heat but that's a job for another time. A 10 hour battle with steel brake lines is enough for me.

Also, here are some pictures as requested, the one of it sitting inside is how it was when I bought it, the one of it on a trailer is the day I brought it back from Michigan, and the other two were when I was doing the brakes just yesterday.

She looks good!

Update: Buffed the car and it looks absolutely beautiful, I'm kinda scared to drive it now because I feel like I'm gonna mess it up, it's like an original 60,000 mile show car now (minus the trunk). The brakes are now fixed with 3/6 new steel lines and 3/3 rubber hoses. I left the other lines alone as they were still bare steel underneath all the grease. Nothing leaks as far as the brakes go which is a huge win and also a surprise as I've never flared lines before. Finally hit 100 miles on it! Actually more like 120 but still cool, I really only drove the car for 4 total days between the brakes going out and waiting on parts for it. Gotta throw some u-joints in as it shakes from 40-55mph but shouldn't be terrible. I do need to fix the wipers though, does anybody know who/if rebuilds the wiper motor? I think I'd be fine with a redone motor and some rain x. Had to drive to school today in the rain and I was made painfully aware of that issue, just rolled the window down and pulled an Ace Ventura and just drove halfway out the window, sketchy, but it worked! Next up is fixing the heater, but after that, a sound system! Not doing anything crazy as I hate the look of modern speakers/radios in old cars. The only permanent modification I'm doing is cutting another hole in the package tray for a 6x9 speaker to match the original. The package tray is pretty warped already so I don't feel bad cutting a hole in it, definitely gonna try and get an old or old looking speaker cover though. I'm gonna hide 2 6 1/2 inch speakers under the dash with a small 6-12v converter to run a little Bluetooth soundboard. Pics will follow as soon as they send to my computer.

I used Ficken about 10 years ago for my 55 and the vacuum wiper motor still works.

Ficken Wiper Service 132 Calvert Avenue West Babylon, NY 11704
631-587-3332

Keep Cruzin,
Bob Kielar

You might compare the price of a rebuilt wiper motor to the price of doing a conversion to electric motor. For an additional $80-$100 it might make more sense to go electric if you plan to drive regularly.

Bob,
Thanks! I'll give him a call

Dn,
Yeah it does make sense to me but I kinda turned off of resto-modding the car in really any way (minus the speakers). I heard that the vacuum wipers should work pretty good provided the fuel pump is making enough vacuum to power it and the motor(?) is rebuilt/working well. I think I'm gonna pull it off today and see if it's something that can be easily done or if its something else that's wrong. Still definitely considering electric wipers but the whole kit looks kinda ugly to me, especially the plastic knob in the inside. I don't know though, maybe I'll change my mind.

Quote from: Bob Kielar on January 09, 2024, 09:12:54 AMI used Ficken about 10 years ago for my 55 and the vacuum wiper motor still works.

Ficken Wiper Service 132 Calvert Avenue West Babylon, NY 11704
631-587-3332

Keep Cruzin,
Bob Kielar

I second the motion.  Ficken rebuilt my '49's vacuum wiper motor some years ago and it works perfectly. It goes so fast I only have to turn the button about halfway for sufficient wiper speed. Yes, it slows down a bit in low vacuum situations like going up a hill, but still wipes well.

Quote from: dn010 on January 09, 2024, 10:37:27 AMYou might compare the price of a rebuilt wiper motor to the price of doing a conversion to electric motor. For an additional $80-$100 it might make more sense to go electric if you plan to drive regularly.

I looked into an electric wiper motor too.  The primary supplier of new electric wiper motors charges $279 for a '49 (and $299 for a '51 like Mowerhoarder's).  However, their wiper motors are all 12 volts, and '49 (and '51) Cadillacs are 6 volts.  Therefore, a 6 to 12 volt power inverter would be needed, and since their wiper motors draw 4 to 5 amperes the inverter would have to be heavy duty. (The firm selling electric motors used to sell suitable inverters but no longer does.)  Looking on the internet I found a suitable inverter for about $100.  Bottom line is that it would have cost more than $400 total with shipping to convert to an electric wiper motor, compared to Ficken's charge of about $150 with shipping to rebuild a vacuum motor.

Jay,
That's what I was looking for! I figured that it would be far cheaper to just stay vacuum and keep the og look too. I did look at an inverter for it and that was about $100 like you said, I think I'm just gonna pull it off today and send it off too.

Just wanting to add my two cents

On those vacuum wipers.

I have rebuilt three of them two 56's and a 58 myself. They are really strait forward and incredibly simple. There are two things that are most commonly needs attention with rebuilding them.

1. The grease inside the vacuum chamber has solidified preventing movement.
It is very easy to open it up with a needle nose pliers. Put some high temp wheel bearing grease and re-assemble. You can also put some marvel mystery oil inside to make the "paddle" inside work smoother.

On the front there is the valve that switched the back and forth movements. That can also be opened up and cleaned.

Where the wiper switch cable connects to is the vacuum adjustment/ speed adjustment. Located at the bottom of the motor. It is a rubber/plastic piece that needs to be wiped down. you can add some grease to make movement smoother. 

2. The second thing to check is if your cable from the switch in your dash is working. If it is not turning or moving (it may actually move but it may not be pushing the cable inside) you can take it out and have it sit in some marvel mystery oil. They commonly freeze due to water running down the firewall and causing the cable to rust.   

The wiper motor is such a simple piece that only has two or three moving parts. If yours isn't warped or missing parts, you can easily take it off, rebuild it yourself and put it back on in less than an hour. As long as you have some good grease and some marvel mystery oil you're all good. If after this you cant get them working, then I'd recommend sending them out.

The three I have done have been working perfectly for many years. These vacuum wipers get some negative reviews due to their variability in speed with engine rpm. I think they work just fine. I drive a Cadillac not to drive a new car, but a classic car. There's no need to waste hundreds on a new electric motor.   

Best of luck
Derick

D,
I probably should've ripped into it myself but I really just wanted someone else to do it lol, I'm pretty burnt out on the car after the brake ordeal so just gonna hope nothing else breaks until it's warmer and dryer. I did see the MMO treatment and I'm a fan of that but I think it was already done as the motor dripped a bit of it out when I pulled it off.

Update and question: Gonna tear into the heater today hopefully, does anybody know a rough estimate of how much it'd be to get a new heater core made for it? or re-cored? Also, how much would it be to get the heater control valve rebuilt? And what's up with the Caddy daddy website? Seems like pretty much everything on there is way overpriced, for example, turn signal bulbs. On Caddy Daddy it's $36 and some change for a set not including shipping/tax. It'd probably be over $50 for two light bulbs which I think is just insane. Are they some gold plated illness curing lightbulbs or the same quality as everything else. I went and used the part number on the website to get a set of 4 bulbs for $12, or $21.49 after shipping and tax. looks like the same quality bulb to me but maybe someone has some insight on that. Obviously he seems like a pretty successful business with all the youtube videos and everything but just seems overpriced. 

Quote from: Mowerhoarder on January 10, 2024, 11:37:22 AMUpdate and question: Gonna tear into the heater today hopefully, does anybody know a rough estimate of how much it'd be to get a new heater core made for it? or re-cored?

Also, how much would it be to get the heater control valve rebuilt?

And what's up with the Caddy daddy website? Seems like pretty much everything on there is way overpriced, for example, turn signal bulbs. On Caddy Daddy it's $36 and some change for a set not including shipping/tax. It'd probably be over $50 for two light bulbs which I think is just insane. Are they some gold plated illness curing lightbulbs or the same quality as everything else. I went and used the part number on the website to get a set of 4 bulbs for $12, or $21.49 after shipping and tax. looks like the same quality bulb to me but maybe someone has some insight on that. Obviously he seems like a pretty successful business with all the youtube videos and everything but just seems overpriced. 

Try https://acmeradiator.net/ who I had repair a heater core some years ago

https://www.heatercontrolvalve.com/ is the best place to have the heater "Ranco" valve rebuilt.

Those 1022 fog light bulbs are unique to 6 volt 47 to 52 Cadillacs and have become quite rare.  Therefore, some vendors charge lot of $ for them.

Jay,
Thanks! I'll give them a call. I did call the person you recommend for the control valve and he said that he wasn't able to rebuild it which I thought was odd.

You might try these guys:
https://www.heatervalves.net/

Joe Hudacek rebuilt my vavles in 2022.

Good luck!
Joe

Joe,
Thanks! I'll give him a call

And an update: pulled the heater out and somehow got the core out, it's pretty shot and either needs redone or replaced with a custom one. Got the heater control valve out and it really doesn't look too hard to do myself, we'll see though. Gonna take the heater core to a shop today and see what the damage is.
Also, here's some pics

Update: Went through some receipts that came with the car and the heater valve was already rebuilt in 2010! At least that's $150 I didn't have to spend so that's pretty cool. On the flip side, got a call saying that the heater core is bad which really sucks as I can't find a replacement for it. Does anybody have one or know who sells or could make one? 

If I am understanding the MPL correctly the hester core for the defrost (assuming you have the deluxe automatic heater) is P/N 311 5648.  It appears that part was used on multiple years from 1940 to 1953.

You might try searching for that part number.

Good luck!
Joe

Joe,
Wow! That's gotta be a helpful book to have when restoring one of these. All I get when I search the part number is the underseat heater underneath the passenger seat, the one I'm talking about is the one inside the heater box under the hood.

Yes, what I sent was the under seat heater by mistake.  Here is the correct page P/N 311 5648 I believe.

I can't find anything on a google search.  With this information at least you know what years use the same core.

Good luck!
Joe

Joe,
Thanks again! I did look up everything and the closest one I can find is one from a 55' eldorado which may or may not work. I did call a ton of radiator shops so I guess just play the waiting game and see what happens.

Update: Called around to some shops and a few think they can fix the existing core! Woo hoo! I do have a question about the hydramatic transmission though, I was reading through the shop manual and found something mentioning a kickdown which I thought was odd as mine has never downshifted when I mash the throttle. I know they're supposed to start in second gear from a stop unless you floor it, then it starts off in first gear but I didn't know it had a kickdown. My question is should it kickdown in all gears when you floor it? The book mentions a 4-3 kickdown so I'd assume there would be a 3-2 as well. The transmission was rebuilt pretty recently and should be good to go but has some issues I didn't realize before. When you floor it from a dead stop, it shifts from first to second just fine but takes a looooooong time before shifting to third. I've never been in a car where the transmission slips so I'm not sure what it feels like but I assume it feels like this does. It shifts when I let off but it seems like the motor revs way too high, to the point where I'm not sure if it's gonna blow up or shift and then I let off. I assume it's just a low fluid issue or maybe a clogged filter? I think I'm gonna have the pan off to put a gasket on it as it leaks a bit so I guess I'll see then.

I am happy to hear you found someone who can rebuild your heater core.  I believe this is probably your best option.  To find another core you would probably have to buy a heater.

For your kick down (called throttle control linkage) read the page I included that describes how the transmission should work.

I believe you have some diagnostic work to do on your transmission.  My '49 starts in first gear and runs through all the 4 gears as you gain speed.  It does not shift like a modern transmission though.  I have attached some pages of my Pontiac Hydra-Matic shop manual that covers 1948 - 1953.  These are the same transmissions as the Cadillac but Pontiac made a good service manual.  I would start with easy stuff like checking the fluid level.  There is a proceedure for that as well (see attached picture). Then pull the bottom pan and see what the fluid looks like and how much debris are on the bottom of the pan.  If you can find someone near you with the internal band adjustment tools, with the pan off, adjusting the bands is simple and I would suggest doing it anytime you remove the pan if you have access to the tools.  The next thing to do after putting it all back together and refilling the transmission would be to check the transmission oil pressure.  I have included a shot of instructions for that as well.

Good luck!
Joe

Joe,
Thanks for the manuals! I guess I'll try to adjust the throttle linkage sometime this week. I did find one heater box for a series 62 convertible which should work, the guy said he'd test the core for me so hopefully that checks out as it's way cheaper than fixing my existing one.

Please keep track of your adjustment.  There is a specialty tool required to adjust ir properly.  If keep track of where you started you can always go back to that point.

Here are some pages from the 1949 shop manual that explains the adjustment.  Your adjustment could be different.  I don't have a 1951 shop manual.

Good luck!
Joe

Update: Finally passed 500 miles put on the car, actually about 700 right now but it's been great the whole time! Really no issues to speak of, still runs like garbage but still runs, still pulls to the right under braking, and still is awesome! Next up on the list of things to do is an alternator conversion or hopefully just turn up the third brush in the generator. Mostly because this thing can't even keep up with the lights and heat, let alone an inverter and phone charger. Gotta re-line the brake shoes at some point but for now, just gonna keep driving it!

Also a question: what intakes work on this engine? I want to ideally put a cam in and run a 3x2 intake which I think would look awesome on the car as sort of a 50's hot rod esque build, I don't want to cut any holes in the hood as it's still pretty nice and I want the car to look stock from the outside. What kind of hp could I expect from doing that? Maybe 50? 100? I really don't know. I do know that the rocker shafts are pretty fragile and that you can adapt ones from a hemi to bolt on and make some mounts for the end, I really don't want to pull the engine, nor do I have the means or time to as this is my only car still

If you are going to update the induction, I suggest going to modern fuel injection.  Phil Terry did on a '54 and last time I talked w/him, he loves it.

David,
I would like to go to fuel injection but I have a few problems with it: One, it runs off 12v and I'm pretty dead set on not dropping $1200 to convert it to 12v. Two, it definitely looks out of place under the hood and with the screen inside and I would like to keep the 50's hot rod look as much as possible. Three, the cost. For a holley sniper which is what I would like to use, it's almost $1400 and I still would have to convert to 12v on top of that and if I'm that deep I might as well upgrade to a 4 barrel and a new distributor. I think I can put together either a 2x2, a 3x2, or a 2x4 for around $1000 all said and done and it would look pretty cool as well. 

Quote from: The Tassie Devil(le) on October 05, 2023, 09:59:47 PMBruce. >:D  A retired Police Officer of 33 years, and seen too much of what happens to young and enthusiastic drivers.

I recall the funny story you mentioned many years ago, you couldn't qualify to be a mechanic which you really wanted but instead you qualified to be a police officer. 

That is true.   I was a qualified Shipwright, but loved tinkering with cars, but to work in the Police Transport Workshops, one had to have a Mechanical Certificate.

The funniest thing was that during my time as a Police Officer, I became in charge of the whole Statewide Transport Section.

But, my real interest in Cadillacs came from ogling a 1951 Cadillac Coupe that was always parked nearby where I worked in the boatyard.

Gee, funny how this thread is about a 1951 Cadillac.

Bruce. >:D 

Quote from: Mowerhoarder on February 22, 2024, 08:25:35 AMDavid,
I would like to go to fuel injection but I have a few problems with it: One, it runs off 12v and I'm pretty dead set on not dropping $1200 to convert it to 12v. Two, it definitely looks out of place under the hood and with the screen inside and I would like to keep the 50's hot rod look as much as possible. Three, the cost. For a holley sniper which is what I would like to use, it's almost $1400 and I still would have to convert to 12v on top of that and if I'm that deep I might as well upgrade to a 4 barrel and a new distributor. I think I can put together either a 2x2, a 3x2, or a 2x4 for around $1000 all said and done and it would look pretty cool as well. 

On the other hand, 49-51 Cadillacs run beautifully on their stock single Carter WCD carburetor.  This carb was state of the art at the time.

You will get more hp gain with headers and a flowing exhaust.

Jay,
I have heard that they run well but this one sure didn't ended up being another problem altogether though
Badpoints,
Definitely true with the headers but I have a hatred for them, mostly that they leak like a siv forever and also that they just look ugly to me, I like a good old high flow manifold and it worked on the wagon I had. For sure gonna go with a high flow exhaust but I also have to make it look stock. I'm thinking just run it like a normal dual exhaust but end one pipe slightly before the clamshell looking exhaust tip so it still looks stock but is a dual exhaust with more flow.

Also an update: The thing runs better! Not perfect, but a long way from where it was before. The only reason I found out what the problem was is the car wouldn't start after a car wash and I popped off the distributor cap to clean out the moisture and found some wild looking corrosion on the points and on the terminals in the cap, cleaned it up and it runs way better. Still gotta go through the carb and all that but for now it's not bad. 

https://forums.cadillaclasalle.club/index.php?topic=174152.0

Concerning fuel injection on your '51, you might want to contact Art Gardner, The Caddy Wizard, whose email address is in the CLC directory. He installed fuel injection on a '49 some years ago.

Update: Finally hit 900 miles on it!, going on a 3 hour trip today so wish me luck!

Good luck and have fun!

Joe

I did have plenty of fun! The car did absolutely amazing and there's zero new noises or issues or anything. I also passed 1000 miles on it with nothing breaking! That being said, I found one of the powergen generator looking alternator for $100 on facebook so I snagged it and hopefully gonna put it on today. How would I wire it up? It's just a one wire so I can just run it straight to the battery but I'd assume the charging light would be on. How would I wire it up to bypass the regulator on the firewall and still have the gen light off?

I haven't done that conversation.  I would suggest you post your question in the technical section.  You will get a lot more help there. 

You might try searching the forum.  It could have been discussed before.

Good luck!
Joe

Update: passed 1200 miles like a week ago and it's still going strong(ish), it re-developed the running like crap issue so I guess I should do a tune up/cap and rotor.

And a question: The transmission has been rebuilt so theoretically everything in there is good so should be good on that front. the problem is the shifting being increasingly weird. I adjusted the kickdown rod thing so that when the throttle is at full, the rod is at the end of it's travel. I assume that's pretty close to how it should be but I'm not sure. If I adjust the rod so that it's shorter, the 1-2 shift is good but the 2-3 revs way out and the 3-4 is a bit late too. All the shifts are rough, jerks the car more forward I mean. When going up a small but pretty steep hill in my neighborhood or turning a corner slow ish and then accelerating, it downshifts from 2-1 or possibly from 3-1 and the engine revs way high then feels like you just dumped the clutch in a manual car and it lurches forward and down to first and then it's revving normally in first. I'm pretty confused at this point and kinda out of options so I might take it to a transmission shop and see if they know anything about it but I really can't foot that bill at the moment so hopefully it's something I can mess up myself.

You have to adjust the TV rod using the method in the manual which sometimes will take some fine tuning afterwards. Start at #3 in the adjustment procedure list and go from there. These can't be adjusted "pretty close", they need to be pretty exact otherwise you'll have the problems you're describing.

Dn, Awesome! I will do that hopefully today.

In case you need it, start at #3 on top left:

https://cadillac.oldcarmanualproject.com/manuals/1951/1951%20Supplement/01-%20Supplement/b_P0057.jpg

Got it adjusted pretty close to what it should be I think, only had to turn the nuts 1/4-1/8 of a turn to get it good. It shifts when I want it to now but it shifts pretty hard, is there a way to get it to shift softer? Maybe just low/overfilled or a band adjustment?

You should always begin by checking the fluid level at the start of any transmission issue. After that, if you adjusted it by the procedure listed and it's still not perfect, you most likely still need to fine tune the TV rod adjustment. For instance, a hard 2-3 shift means the rod is adjusted too short. Try adjusting it longer by 1/8 turns at a time. If it gets worse, adjust it back using the procedure, then try adjusting the other way 1/8 at a time.

When I installed the Edelbrock 650 carb in my 57 (which ultimately moved the place the TV rod connected thereby throwing it out of adjustment), it literally took an hour of adjusting, going for a drive, adjusting, going for a drive - on and on before I finally got the proper adjustment.

Dn,
I guess I should've done that before I started adjusting this lol. I did check it a while ago and it seemed overfull but I'm pretty sure I didn't do the whole procedure right. I really don't understand the procedure on how to do it, I'm for sure a visual learner and I just can't picture it from words most of the time. I do still have to get the 1950 shop manual but maybe the 51' manual has something in it about that? Cadillac seemed pretty proud of their transmission and like half the manual is just about it

And an update, I realized that the rear passenger wheel cylinder is leaking pretty bad so I ordered new wheel cylinders for all 4 corners and I'm just gonna get the shoes re-lined at the same time and have that headache over with sooner rather than later. I also found out the front U-Joint is bad and the rear is original so I'm gonna change them as well. Fun stuff but I guess it has to happen at some point

Checking the fluid level is easy on most vehicles, on your 51 it seems you'll have to pull back the carpet and pry up the access panel. You check the fluid with everything warmed up and with the engine running and transmission in neutral.

For your replacement parts aside from your wheel cylinders that can be honed out and/or rebuilt, I'd suggest you look for NOS parts on eBay. Anything "new" will sure to be chinabombs and probably won't hold up to a harsher style of driving.

I love this thread!

Greetings from Sweden.

/ Johan

Dn,
I didn't know it was that simple! I know that's how you check it on any normal car but the manual goes through a whole procedure on how to check it. It says stuff about running the engine at a speed equal to 20mph for 2 minutes which I guess is just warming it up, I'm gonna check it today and fill/drain some. I do like original parts when I can find them and the wheel cylinders I'm buying are high quality stuff. As for the u-joints, the front I ordered is a MOOG and the rear is NOS so should be all good there.

Here's what the stick looks like, checked in drive with engine at idle:

It is supposed to be checked in neutral with engine idling and while the car is on a level surface.

Dn, DOH! I knew that but I dunno why I thought it was supposed to be checked in drive. Either way, it was about the same in neutral so I drained about 2 quarts and it's at the proper level now.

And an update: Since draining the fluid, nothing changed! Pretty sure I have to fiddle with the TV linkage some more to get it to shift right, all that's wrong with it is it shifts late now so gotta increase(?) pressure I think. I did get around to throwing shocks on it and it really doesn't ride any better than it did before. I finally did an ignition tune up and this thing rips! it's way better than it was before except it shakes at idle now. I'm not sure how to adjust the carb for that but I did mess with the only 2 screws I could see which were at the base of the carb an it made no noticeable difference so I just set them back to where they were. Put a new points and condenser set and plugs, cap, rotor. Took the car on a 4 hour trip with zero issues, took backroads down and the highway back and it's a great cruiser. I definitely need to get the brakes better and I think the last step I have is to get the shoes re-lined as they're pretty worn and also don't match. I'm gonna do new wheel cylinders and wheel seals at the same time as well. Does anybody have a good re-lining person? I have contacted these guys: https://www.brakematerialsandparts.com/    and they said it would be about $300 for all 8 shoes.

Update: Converted the car to a 6v alternator and it's amazing! Got sick of the battery always dying but I did get to jump start my car with some cool cars! I doubt anyone has jumpstarted one of these with a Mercedes AMG before! Anyway, alternator life is amazing and the lights are brighter, the car starts faster and it feels maybe slightly faster? I did run out of gas at the bottom of a hill and had to drive backwards up the hill so the gas would run to the front of the tank which was pretty interesting but other than that, zero problems still!

Quote from: Mowerhoarder on April 15, 2024, 09:51:51 AMI did run out of gas at the bottom of a hill and had to drive backwards up the hill so the gas would run to the front of the tank which was pretty interesting

I bet that was a bit of an odd site to see.

Quote from: Mowerhoarder on April 12, 2024, 08:37:27 AMDoes anybody have a good re-lining person? I have contacted these guys: https://www.brakematerialsandparts.com/    and they said it would be about $300 for all 8 shoes.

To me here in Sweden thats about ok, if translating kronor to dollars I would ask around 240 but dollar is strong to krona nowadays so thats fair! :)

Johan

Tj,
Yeah I definitely got some weird looks from people but that's just how old cars go

Dogbergs,
Thanks! I think I'm gonna send them out soon and have them redone, supposedly high friction material and eco friendly and it might make the car stop better

Update: I found out yesterday that THE ENTIRE TIME I have been driving this car (almost 2000 mi now) I have had only ONE FULLY WORKING BRAKE. I've taken this car on multiple 2+ hour trips, on the highway, through city traffic, whatever. All with one working brake. The winner is the drivers front wheel which had a brake material thickness of a business card. It was so thin I poked it and it cracked. All of the other wheel cylinders were rusted solid and definitely weren't doing anything at all. The rear passenger axle seal was leaking profusely and it coated the shoes and drum with 90w gear oil. There's literally a solid 1/2" of grease on the backing plate and in the gap in the shoes. Anyway, sending the shoes off to get re-lined today so hopefully they're back in time for me to take the car to prom!

And a question: I already asked this on another forum but figured I'd ask here too, How do I get the axles out? I need to do axle seals on both sides as they're leaking.

I had a similar experience as you with majority of the wheel cylinders not working and a leaking seal covering my shoes in oil. You'll remove the wheel, drum and backing plate, use an axle puller to pull the axles out, pull the old seal, press the new one in and be done with it. Reverse order to install. If you want to be proactive and drop more money into it, you can have the wheel bearings changed while the axles are out. There is also a "flange gasket" you can replace between the axle housing and backing plate but I never bother to do that and it works just fine. If you're getting new/relined shoes, I'd suggest getting the drums cut (it does make a difference) and have the shoes arc ground for the drums.

Dn,
Thanks for the info! So the axles just pull out with a slide hammer or something like that? no clips or anything in the diff, just pull the 4 bolts and all the brake stuff off and it comes out? Also what do you mean by cut? Like get them turned on a lathe? As for the getting the shoes arced, does it matter if I don't? I'm very quickly running out of money but if I really should I will.

Slide hammer is to get the axle out of the housing, really it is the bearing that's pressed on the axle that you're pulling out of the housing. Sometimes they slip right out, sometimes they need a beating with the slide hammer. No clips inside like today, just the 4 bolts and the rest of the junk you mention to pull.

Having the drums cut - yes, getting them turned to cut away all the ridges, grooves, scores and whatever else you might have going on in the drums that will translate into your new shoes if not done. Down here in FL I pay $12 per drum so it's not terribly expensive.

After all of that (even if you don't have the drums turned), the shoes will not fit the drums properly and that's why the arc cut is suggested, so they match the drum and give you the most area of contact. If not done, you may only have the very ends of the shoes or just the center touching the drum only. Because of this you may not get them set/adjusted properly at the very end, and there is a chance they can drag causing your new $$$ shoes to overheat and cause your drums to develop hot spots. You may not care to do this since you will experience quite a big difference going from one working brake to four, but it's easier and better to get it done the first time while it is already in pieces instead of having to go back in to do it should you have a problem.

Make sure you have drum brake tools if you don't already and a feeler gauge for when you preform the "major adjustment" on the brakes upon reassembly.
Your biggest hurdles here may be finding someone to do the drum and arc cutting since that is pretty much out these days.

 Also don't forget to refill your differential.

Dn,
Thanks again! I think I will get them arced then, the drums are pretty much perfect so I think I'm gonna leave them alone and just have the shoes arced to them. As far as the adjustment goes, is there anything wrong with just turning the adjusters until the shoes just barely drag on the drums or is there something more in depth with it?

I just looked at the "major" procedure and luckily it is not as involved as 52+ - link is below. I'd still recommend a brake shoe tool kit, $20 bucks on Amazon and make the job a whole lot easier. I used to use a large screwdriver to try adjusting the star wheel but even just getting the adjusting tool makes a huge difference in making things easier. Screwdriver always would slip, the tool typically doesn't. You can also get new rubber plugs on amazon if yours are crusty, they weren't expensive, I can get the item number I ordered if you want.

https://cadillac.oldcarmanualproject.com/manuals/1951/1951%20Supplement/01-%20Supplement/b_P0033.jpg

Quote from: Mowerhoarder on April 23, 2024, 11:55:50 AMUpdate: I found out yesterday that THE ENTIRE TIME I have been driving this car (almost 2000 mi now) I have had only ONE FULLY WORKING BRAKE. I've taken this car on multiple 2+ hour trips, on the highway, through city traffic, whatever. All with one working brake. The winner is the drivers front wheel which had a brake material thickness of a business card.     

Congratulations for finding out the problem, plus, congratulations for being such a good and careful driver that you never really needed to rely on the brakes.

Bruce. >:D

Dn,
Thanks! That's definitely more involved then I thought so I guess I should do it. Gotta order some plugs too cause mine are crusty.

The Tassie Deville,
Thanks! I definitely did not drive this car like it only had one brake so it's really a miracle it's still in one piece! Been cut off plenty of times and so many other things too. I guess I'm really glad I can finally stop the car too. 

The plugs I used are below, just punch it into amazon and you'll find them. They fit my 57 so should be fine for yours too.

Raybestos H1456K Professional Grade Brake Backing Plate Plug

Dn,
Thanks! I just bought them.

And an update: Car still has no brakes and probably won't in time for prom but the axle seals are in and so far, no leaks! I got around to putting some bulbs in it finally and have all interior lights which is pretty nice. The dome light is still kinda weird and only works with the rear passenger door, I cleaned all the switches and still nothing. Anybody got any ideas? Maybe needs new switches still and they aren't perfectly clean?

Well I would probably start by swapping the good switch out for a switch from a door that doesn't activate the light and see what happens.

  A quick test of your switches would be to remove one at a time and disconnect the wire, then ground that wire to see if your lights come on. The switches are just a grounding point for the courtesy lights at each individual door.
So you know that the lights are working with one of the doors, so test the other 3 by grounding your wire at the switch. Just make sure that the other doors are closed to eliminate any false results.
If grounding doesn't work for one or more of them, then you know you will have to trace the wiring back from each inoperative switch to find the fault.
Typically there is a junction or splice on that circuit where it branches out to the individual switches that can operate the lights. This will include any switch on one or more of your light housings if so equipped. This splice can corrode from water getting on it over time and I've seen them even burn apart due to this. The resistance becomes high enough to cause the wire/s to burn free from the connection.
I'm guessing that you have probably 2 dome lights, maybe more, my 56 has 2, one on each side above the doors. Plus the map light may operate with the door switches. I have my car all apart so I'm going by memory on the map light.
Hope this helps some.

Rick

 Edit: 
If you find your lights work by grounding the wire, your switch is not working. You can test each of these with a multimeter on the continuity setting with the switch out and disconnected.
 Question, did you disassemble the switches to clean them, or just clean up the contact where the wire goes?

Cadman,
I did ground the wire but just to where the switch mounts, I'm starting to think that it might somehow not me grounded there? Not sure yet. I did take the switches apart to clean them and they're very clean inside so shouldn't be a problem there.

Quote from: Mowerhoarder on Yesterday at 10:19:37 AMCadman,
I did ground the wire but just to where the switch mounts, I'm starting to think that it might somehow not me grounded there? Not sure yet. I did take the switches apart to clean them and they're very clean inside so shouldn't be a problem there.

Try this then. Use a jumper wire to ground the wire going to the particular switch you're testing by running the jumper directly to your battery ground terminal. I believe your car has a positive ground, right?
Have you checked to see if that wire has voltage with a multimeter? If you don't have voltage, grounding it won't do anything. You would first need to determine why there isn't any voltage present in the wire, which could be a break in the wire, a bad connection at a wire splice in the harness itself where they branch out to each of the doors.
The wire does ground at the switch, but it's possible that the method used to mount the switch isn't making a good contact. I don't know how your switch is fastened, it could be with screws or some use spring steel fingers that grip the edges of the hole it goes into. If the metal around the switch or the screws is rusty that can cause the ground to not occur.
Try wire brushing the mounting points for your switch and see if it makes any difference.

Rick