64 Cadillac waterpump

[bill henry]

dont get just any old bolt you need a grade 8 IMHO

[Brian Daum]

Guys,
On the issue of Harmonic Balancer removal and replacement.  You are probably aware that Cadillac seems to be the only Mfg. that uses four bolts on the damper to hold the damper pulley.  You may also note that most "universal" damper tools are set up for three bolts.
In the shop manual of all years with this feature, Cadillac references a special tool, manufactured by Kentmore for this task.  Kentmore is still in business (SPC Corporation) and they have a version still available.  Costs a couple of hundred bucks and it took about 4 months for mine to show up, but if you are going to be doing any damper removal/replacement OR on the later models where there is a crank hub behind the un-boltable damper (pulley actually),
it is the best money you will ever spend.
Regarding pulling the timing cover with a broken bolt through it without pulling the pan just remember that new or even serviceable timing covers are near non existent so a little extra time can prevent the (essentially) loss of an otherwise good engine.
Just a thought (or two)
Greg

Hi Greg,

Is this the one?

https://gmspecialservicetools.spx.com/ToolDetails.aspx?ToolNumber=

["Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364]

Brian
That is the one.  I looked back and the part number WAS J-21052-B in 2001 and the price was $214.37.
I suggest you communicate with them before ordering by number via IN.
Greg

[Brian Daum]

Greg,

Forgive me for nitpicking, but could you please take a look at part # J-23523-F and confirm if that is the right one. I`m not sure the right part number came up when I copied/pasted the link.

I want to be sure it`s the correct part when I gotta spend $ 340,- plus taxes plus shipping.

I will clear with Kent-Moore as well.

["Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364]

Brian this "looks" right. If Kentmore says this is the replacement for the tool number listed in your shop manual then it is worth every penny.  What I  can't see and they don't say is the thread diameter and pitch of the accessories.  All the requisite pieces seem to be there, and it looks like what I've gotten. CALL and TALK to them.
Greg

[1964deville]

Hi Brian and all other CLC forum members, last Saturday I tried to get the balancer off with balancer puller. It doesn't come off.....

Some tips would be greatly appreciated. This thing has got to come off. I need to remove my front engine cover in order to repair the broken bolts and replace my gaskets and crankshaft seal.

Many thanks in advance 

Luc

[Brian Daum]

Hi Luc,

First of all, you need a real Heavy Duty Puller, and you need to tighten it real hard. At the same time, tap the balancer with a hammer.

Just keep tightening a little, tapping, tightening, tapping.....It will come off eventually!

Let me know how it goes.

[Chris McBride]

here's my notes with some other links with info re: removal of a 429 harmonic balancer

http://groups.msn.com/196364CadillacCommunity/general.msnw?action=get_message&mview=0&ID_Message=11322

http://groups.msn.com/196364CadillacCommunity/general.msnw?action=get_message&mview=0&ID_Message=31619

http://groups.msn.com/196364CadillacCommunity/general.msnw?action=get_message&mview=0&ID_Message=24265

http://www.cadillaclasalleclub.org/forum/index.php/topic,84234.0.html

http://www.modifiedcadillac.org/forum/index.php/topic,1729.0.html

Several common themes: many say pre-soaking with a penetrating/loosening oil, nearly all say a good puller correctly aligned, most agree an air wrench (if you have room), and patience.  All agree no heat or hammering!

also, if your considering getting the balancer rebuilt, then these are the suppliers commonly referenced:

http://www.damperdudes.net/

www.dalemfg.com

http://www.damperdoctor.com/

I used Dale Manufacturing and my recollection is that the rebuild was approximately $100.

Also, FWIW, when you go to re-install, you'll need the correct bolt:

"The manual says to use the bolt from a 1962 390, a less then helpful statement in 2008.  Maurice, however, kindly once took the time to document that "I measured the one I have - its 9/16 with a 18 threads per inch pitch."

HTH and good luck!

Chris

[Glen]

I’m not that familiar with the 429 but the balancer on the 472 has one of the 4 bolt holes is not evenly spaced from the other holes.  If you put your two bolt puller on the holes not directly across from each other you will be pulling at an angle and that makes it much harder to pull. 

Make sure the holes you use are the holes are directly across from each other.  As I said above I’m not sure this applies to the 429.

Glen

[1964deville]

Brian, Chris and Glen,

Thanks a lot for the information! Yesterday evening the dentist got back to the patient with some new inspiration thanks to you guys. After pulling and slightly tapping it finally came off 

Now off to chapter two, removing the front engine cover. I'll keep you posted.

Thanks again.

Best regards, Luc

[Chris McBride]

You've probably read or heard by now of the scarcity of these timing covers and how easily the bolts snap during dis-assembly.  Most recommend repeated soakings with PB Blaster or a similar product.  Many recommend using a smaller ratchet (1/4 drive) so as to minimize the snapping of the bolts. 

Attached is a contribution from one of the members of the 1963 1964 Cadillac forum http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/Cadillac_6364_club/  Note the low torque requirement for the bolts.  The difficulty is that the years of service have often corroded, rusted, or thinned the original bolts.  Hence the need for soaking and care in removal.

The attachment lists the size and parts numbers for sourcing replacing bolts at ARP, a manufacturer of stainless and other high quality bolts. http://www.arp-bolts.com/

It also has a picture from the manual showing the locations of the bolts.

The 1963 1964 Cadillac forum does have a search function.  You may wish to visit and search out information on the timing cover since it has been a frequent topic.  You may also wish to check out "o ring" for the water pump cross over pipe since that part of the re-assembly will also make you crazy.

HTH and good luck!

[1964deville]

Thanks a lot Chris! It sure helps. Although I knew about the double o-ring for the cross over pipe (I was a frequent visitor of the '63-'64 forum and have seen it come by several times), it never hurts to mention it. It's good to know the bolts of the cover are pretty fragile too. I will take extra care.

Some say you need to remove the oil pan, others say it's not necessary. As you might know, while I was removing the waterpump a while ago, two of the main bolts snapped. So I guess in order to remove the cover more easily, I will need to remove the oil pan, right?

Best regards, Luc

[Brian Daum]

Hi Luc,

Congrats on the Harmonic Balancer!

To save yourself a lot of work, your best bet is to to get the two front studs on the oil pan out. I used a special stud removal tool, but using two nuts should also work out fine. Now, with those two out (Be 100% sure that there is NO more bolts hidden in the grime and dirt on the cover) you need to start convincing the cover to come off.

I had only one bolt broken off. I found an area right behind where the distributor was where I put a wooden plank and banged pretty hard on the wood with a hammer. After a while I could see it was coming loose, eventually so much that I could pry it off. Use care though!

I can 100% confirm that the crankshaft bolt is 9/16 UNF. I actually got one from a well equipped hardware store, and it is the right one!

Going out to the garage right now putting things together, who cares if it is freezing cold.......

[1964deville]

Thanks Brian!

Going out to the garage right now putting things together, who cares if it is freezing cold.......

Haha, LOL  Good luck on your '64 too! Please also keep posting your challenges, battles, issues and victories and we'll keep this thread alive!

Luc

[Brian Daum]

Dear All,

Back in from the garage, a great day, with some great progress.

Lessons learned today: The rubber gasket in front of oilpan caused me some troubles getting in place, seemed a little oversized, but using a hairdryer made the trick. After heating up the rubber somewhat, the gasket slid right in place.

Don`t do the mistake that I did today: Remember to slid in place the oil pump gear with the shaft BEFORE putting the front cover on. It is impossible afterwards.

Right now the front cover is on, oil pump assy, water pump, distibutor and fuel pump, so we`re getting there slowly.

[Brian Daum]

Dear All,

Right now I am having problems tightening the bolt for the harmonic balancer without turning the engine.

There is supposedly a specialised tool used for filling one of the cylinders with compressed air in order to block the engine from turning over while tightening.

Anyone that knows where to get one of these?  Or any tips on using that tool or any other way of dealing with this problem?

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

The best way to stop the engine turning whilst tightening the Bolt is to renmove the Starter Motor and use a large Screw Driver to use as a stop against the Ring Gear Teeth and the block.

Works every time.

Bruce.

PS.   Helps to have a third hand though.

[bill henry]

i use bruces method i also use the big screwdriver or a tire iron works also when i torque the flywheel bolts  on a stick shift car after flywheel resurfacing

[Brian Daum]

Bill & Bruce,

Thanks for the advise, yes, I have used that method on previous projects. But I`m getting kinda lazy, and it`s seems so much easier using compressed air and the cylinder routine.

And I don`t need to get a helper, jack up the car, take off the starter, and so on...

[35-709]

"There is supposedly a specialised tool used for filling one of the cylinders with compressed air in order to block the engine from turning over while tightening."

I made my own by using an old spark plug.  I broke off the porcelain and gutted it, then brazed an air hose fitting to it.  However, I would favor Bruce and Bill Henry's method in this particular situation.