She broke a valve-1970 472

[Jeff Rosansky CLC #28373]

Just want to give a shout out to the 50/50 mix of ATF and acetone.  Applied to head bolts for a couple of days and the head bolts came free easily today...... Including the exhaust bolts!!

Are there serial #'s on the heads?  When I take them in I want to be sure I get mine back.
Jeff

[chrisntam]

I don't think there are serial numbers on the heads but there are casting numbers.  The last three numbers are what's important.  They should be either 250, 902 or 950.  You'll be fine if you get the same casting number back.  If you wanted to, you could take a dremal tool and grind a little mark in each head and once returned, check that your mark is there.

When I rebuilt my motor, I just made sure I got the same series heads back.  Mine were 250s.  Yours are likely either the 250s or the 950s.

Here's a link to CadCo's data page that shows the casting numbers:

http://www.cad500parts.com/tech/EngineIDPages.pdf

As far as getting out the exhaust manifold bolts out, I say, "Lucky!"   

chris.

[Scot Minesinger]

Jeff,

Are going with valve job and piston replacement with engine in car, or total engine out of car re-build?

If engine remains in car, when you drop oil pan to replace piston be sure and replace rear main seal, ten minute job with pan off, and $20 part.

Keep us posted.

BTW kind of a bummer they locked up the 59 EBZ post at # 575, trying to get to 1,000

[Dave Burke]

Man, I don't know.  I would be fighting major temptation to say "nuts" to it and just do a full teardown and inspect ALL of my valves, and since I had the top and bottom of the mill open, I might want to pull all of the cans, check the rings, and Plasti-gauge the crank bearings too.  File it under the "As long as I am doing this..." category.

Bummer, but best of luck,

Dave   

[Scot Minesinger]

Dave, Jeff,

That is difficult call on a 53k mile motor.  Jeff is removing both heads for valve job (thus replacing/correcting any head deficiencies), so it is a choice between rebuild engine or valve job and piston replacement.

Maybe when oil pan is off the car, a more accurate analysis can be completed.

[Dave Burke]

Fingers crossed.

Dave

[Jeff Rosansky CLC #28373]

What we are thinking now is pulling the engine and then looking at everything.  I am playing second fiddle on this one as a friend who does this full time is going to help me in his spare time.  Pulling the engine sounds scary to me, however to an engine guy it isn't that big of a deal.  According to the manual, it is only a few more steps (and then the hood) to get it out.  If we go that route then we will look at everything and r/r as necessary.  Another cylinder seems to be burning oil so If we are going to pull 1 piston, we mite as well pull them all, hone the cylinders and put in new rings.  The rear main leaks like it has been stabbed with a butcher knife so now is the time to do it.  Will to timing chain,etc too.
The problem here (at least for now) isn't doing the job.  The problem is the "might as wells"  Need to keep it realistic here, this is just a 'fun' car that gets driven 3K/year so it doesn't need to be first class, however I don't want to kick myself in a couple of years because I didn't do something.

Guys, I love all the input on this subject.  Thanks.  Helps my "mood".  By the way, my CLC renewal came the other day.  A little ironic, don't you think!

[Scot Minesinger]

Jeff,

I had hardly ever done much substantial work on a car ever, and pulling my first engine was not difficult all by myself without any forum questions.  Since I was replacing Y exhaust pipe anyway, I jut cut it with saws all.  Further, I put it back in myself (after much engine work) in like an hour (lowering into position and securing to trans).  Just read the directions in the shop manual, it is like a cook book.  Take your time.

The pictures are of the removal and the re-install.

Get a leveler.  Get the engine crane that folds up (make sure it has a long enough boom).  The engine weigh about 700lbs or so, but get the 2,000lbs crane because at farthest position on telescoping boom it is 1,000lbs.  Watch that your trans torque converter does not come out, after removal of engine, install brace to prevent that from happening.  Mark the hood real good so you can install in exact same position.

The engine crane was like $225, the engine stand was $100, and the engine leveler was $30.  Since you will not be using every day the quality is not super critical.  I had to also load a 1,200 lb safe in my pick up later in the year and the engine crane was so great - many other practical uses (stretching hood hinge springs for painting and etc.).

Good luck, take your time. 

Remind your wife that in the event of an EMP (nuclear bomb) all computer will be destroyed and this car will still run perfectly.  That also works for my wife.

Enjoy this!

[Jeff Rosansky CLC #28373]

boy she sure looks good going back in.
Where did you attach the chain?  What is the round thing that looks like a vac servo on the back of the engine?  I don't have that.
The neighbor down the street has a cherry picker and a stand.  Going to do some work on the wiring for his charger and he will let me use the stand and hoist.
My heads are 250's.
I agree, It doesn't look all that hard from the manual point of view.  Famous last words??

[Scot Minesinger]

Jeff,

I used the engine hoists lifts that come with the engine to remove it.  However, it does not really matter, provided it is secure.  A 3/8" bolt will easily hold a chain.  You could use intake manifold bolts.

The device on the back is cruise control.  Figured might as well get all the stuff done I can before re-installing engine.

On TV they always remove carb and yank it out by bolting a plate where carb went with 5/16" bolts.  I removed with carb on it and reinstalled with new re-built carb.

While engine is out you can really clean up the engine bay nice.

[Dave Burke]

Hi Jeff,

This was what I figured: if you have the heads off and you are going to have to replace a piston, then you are going to have full access to the crank.  Might as well inspect the other bearings.  If you do that, well then you might as well pull each piston, hone the cylinder walls, and replace the rings.  I have done something similar with my '57 SDV.  Did I need to do a full valve job?  No.  But I had the heads off, so might as well.  Did I need to paint everything and spend the extra time?  No.  But I had the engine apart, so what the heck.  So on and so forth.  When I rebuilt my motorcycle's engine, it was the same thing: do I really NEED to do task A B or C?  No, but I had the engine apart and at least now I know that it is replaced and is less likely to fail.  I expect that the same will happen with my Saturn when I tear its engine down (it has about 200K on it). 

At the same time, I also discovered things in my CDV that DID need replacing or attention: sludged oil ports and rocker rails that were not letting the engine oil itself correctly.  Bent push rods that wasn't letting the engine breathe.  Frozen lifters, etc. 

I guess that ultimately it is up to the level of pain that you can endure, especially when there is nice weather and...  Ooh - sorry, I just got distracted by a '57 Bel Air that just drove down my road as I was typing...  Where was I?  Oh yeah, Good Luck and I hate that you ate a valve, but on the bright side, as Scot was saying, you can clean up the engine bay and you will understand the workings of your mill just that much more!

Best,

Dave

[Scot Minesinger]

Dave,

yes you really hit the nail on the head with the one task leads to another thing.  In removing my one head to replace an intake valve, did many other nice things that contributed to an overall pleasing success after completion.  One task leads to another and so.

[Dave Burke]

Scot ,

I guess that it all centers around one's definition of "convenience"!

Now if I can just get things a bit more squared around here, I'm gonna give the '57 a quick bath and then I am going to go hunt down the person who owns that blue '57 Bel Air that drove past an hour or so ago.  I'd bet it is about as pretty standing still as it was when it was moving!

Dave

[Jeff Rosansky CLC #28373]

I have her just about ready to pull.  Have to wait for my mechanic friend.  When we open her up will see what is going on.  My hope is new bearings, that damn piston, hone and rings.  That is best case.  Looking at the engine kits on line from MTS and Cad500 parts.  Should probably get the kit that has an oil pump.  While I'm in there, might as well.......
Guess I'll have to work on it in the garage.  Don't think my wife would let it stay in the living room.  Actually, I can't work on it in the living room anyway--- Don't want to get a stray dog hair in the new paint!!

[Jeff Rosansky CLC #28373]

Well, finally pulled it today.  Not the best news.  A little pitting in one of the rear cylinders but other than that, the walls looked pretty much OK.  Now for the problem.  Front bearing was spinning.  Must have been plugged oil passages.  There was that same metal paste like crap in a couple of places.  See the picture with the main bearing bolt.  We are thinking no oil to a few places caused fast wear.  Oil would not return and the metal particles pooled in a couple of places.  This is the same stuff we found in the bad lifter.  The bearing surfaces and crank looked pretty good and should be able to be polished/turned.

So, Looks like it isn't going to be just a simple repair.  Oh, by the way.  The piston with the valve jammed into it cracked in 3 places.  I guess she's beyond the JB Weld stage
Jeff

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

G'day Jeff,

Definitely something went bad with this engine.

Spun Bearings can result in a bent crankshaft, as bearings only spin when the part initially seizes up, and the force of rotation either spins the bearing by breaking the cranks, or the connecting rod breaks.

The Valve breaking could be as a direct result of the valve "hanging" down, and hitting the piston.

Me thinks this is a high-mileage engine, or an abused one.

Bruce.

[cadillacmike68]

Breaking what tanks? M4 Sherman, PzKw VI Tiger, T-34?  Or did you mean cranks? 

When I spun a bearing way back, it broke the connecting rod. I don't want to experience that ever again.

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

Oops, wonderful things happen when one doesn't completely proof-read.

But, I have corrected it.

Haven't broken many parts over the years, apart from an axle in my dragster that had already been twisted.

Bruce.

[Jeff Rosansky CLC #28373]

Engine was running fine when this all happened.  I think (even tho I hate that this happened) we got lucky here. 
Looks like all the bad stuff was just getting ready to start happening.  Even on the bad bearing, there was just a little bit of copper that had started to show thru.  It hadn't been bad for long.  No wear on the cap.  Engine still spun freely.
It's a 50K engine.  I don't know about abuse, We've just had it a year.
Problem is that it had been sitting for a long time.  You can see where the oil level was when it was sitting on the dipstick by the corrosion pits.  Heavy sludge in there.  I am certainly not an expert but  think she was just starved for oil, even tho the sump was full.

Will see what they say when she gets to the shop.

[Scot Minesinger]

Jeff,

Soon your engine will be back in the car.  Try and not go crazy cleaning up the engine bay while engine is out (you are only limited by imagination and time), not easy to resist.  Those brake line sure are easy to replace when engine is out for example.  Here is a picture I found my daughter took and you can see what part of engine is attached to the chain.  Get an engine leveler if you did not already.  You can literally get the engine in position within a 1/32" of an inch in position with a leveler.  I put the engine back all by self and it only took about an hour from removing it off engine stand to engine mounts in frame and a few bolts connecting trans to engine.