Marks on the frame off a 1957 eldorado biarritz

[Walter Youshock]

I still haven't heard from Bill Anderson.  I did find 2 '57  Sevilles in junkyards.  Both had the standard engine with blue valve covers.  Both were missing their air cleaners...

For all the Hersheys  and Grand Nationals I've attended, never once did I see a gold 4bbl air cleaner on an Eldorado nor in any of the factory photos I have.   Whatever the case, we've got to get a definite answer before it pops up in judging.

[57eldoking]

I agree an official ruling needs to be made on this. Did the cars you found have matching number engines?

[Paul Tesone]

 I checked the red Eldo today a little more carefully . The ONLY hint of anything other than gold on the valve covers are the spots I pointed out in my previous picture . I tried to get a better picture of them before I attempted to remove the flakes . As you might expect from looking at the condition of the paint . the flakes were very delicate . I did manage to remove some where the ? blue discoloration was and get a photo . Once the flakes were off the valve cover and examined with a magnifying glass , I could not find any evidence of blue , either on the paint surface or underneath . I believe the discoloration was grease or something else ON TOP of the gold paint . I think my new picture of the valve cover also indicates this . Not sure this helps with a definative answer as to whether the single carb 1957 valve covers should be gold or blue . I like gold , but will certainly respect the opinions of those more knowledgeable than me .  ........ So now I have been thinking about this whole "Q" engine thing . I had planned to restore the red Eldo and replace the single carb with the dual quad set up . I have the set up already restored . The vacuum advance for the dual quad set up is different than for the single carb , and have one of those . But I think that the transmission and/or rear end is supposed to be different for the "Q" engine . If my single carb engine is not a "Q" engine , what happens if I put the dual quad set up on it ?? ... Paul Tesone CLC # 6876

[57eldoking]

Thank you for digging deeper Paul. Those valve covers sure look like they're original gold.

Our Biarritz is equipped with dual quads but had a standard 1959 Jetaway in it which we discovered during the restoration. We weren't able to locate a correct 1957 CE code transmission so we replaced it with a regular C code transmission. I believe the CE transmission had slight differences in the valvebody and some of the torus components to be better adapted to the dual quad setup. In the 20k miles we've put on the car since the restoration we haven't had any problems that could be attributed to not having a CE code transmission. I have also driven a 42k mile 57 Seville with dual quads and the correct CE transmission and could not detect a notable difference in shifting or transmission performance characteristics. 

[Paul Tesone]

 Henning , thanks for that information . .... Paul Tesone CLC #6876

[Ralph Messina CLC 4937]

Guys,

I’ve never seen the power curves comparing the two engines, but I suspect the nominal shift speed of the dual quad engine is slightly lower than the single carb unit. The dual four engine breathes much more freely than the single four so it produces comparable torque at a lower RPM. A lower shift point on a CE transmission would offer a bit better fuel economy. â€" Dual quad engine were known to be able to pass anything but a gas station.-  However any marginal mileage improvement can be effected by the adjustment of the TV rod and driving  style. I’d say the only way to notice a difference would be with instruments on original specs cars.

On the bright side, if someone is under the car looking for the “CE” code they likely want to buy the car.

Ralph

[TMoore - NTCLC]

All very interesting -

There seems to be a lot of knowledge about the 1957 Eldorados in this thread.  Was there ever a "database" of the surviving Biarritz cars compiled?  I am looking for a little history on one of these cars, and had a vague recollection of seeing some documentation on the survivors, but may very well be confused with the Brougham database.

[57eldoking]

I have plans of launching a website and public database on the 57 Sevilles and Biarritzes and have compiled quite a bit of information. What Biarritz body# are you looking for information on?

[57eldoking]

I have gone through my picture library and have picked out several cars that I deem to be largely untouched since new and not subjects of major restoration work. Perhaps not conclusive evidence I still hope they contribute to the debate.


Seville #736: Appears to be authentic under hood except from home made PCV ventilation and orange oil filler cap. The interior also reflects that this appears to be a very original untouched car.














Seville #1765: Originally Olympic White with Elysian green interior, now in primer. Interior seems very original, seems no major restoration work has taken place with the exception of the primer.












Seville #1823: Originally Olympic White with a special order red interior. Untouched engine bay and disassembled original interior. Air cleaner not present in any photos on file.
















Seville #1852: I believe this car formerly belonged to forum member Bill Balkie who did quite a bit of work to it after these pictures were taken. Perhaps Bill have something to contribute with in this thread?












Seville #2083: Appears to be another largely untouched and original car with the relatively rare paisley copper interior.












Biarritz #313: In very dilapidated condition, engine repainted in an incorrect greenish color but the air cleaner seems untouched.


















Biarritz #1043: Forum member salguod and his family owns this car bought by his grandfather in 1959. Perhaps he has something to contribute to this thread? No pictures of air cleaner on file.

[Walter Youshock]

I find it odd that not ONE of these cars has the air cleaner decal.

Another point:  over time and as these cars aged, went through consecutive owners and became used cars, the dual quads may have been removed and replaced with single carbs... 

Just a,thought...

[57eldoking]

It may be a little odd, but I've gone through as many 57 original black air cleaners on "regular" 57s as I could find and haven't found any original decals on those either. Where was the decal applied on the air cleaner and do you have any close up pictures of an original decal on a black air cleaner?

And yes, people could have swapped out the dual quads for a single barrel carb. The only way to find out for sure is to order build records for these 7 cars plus for Paul's Biarritz shown earlier. Anyone have $400 to spend on 57 Eldorado archeology? Does the CLC have free or discounted access to these records for historical research purposes? What I do see on the 120 or so cars I have under hood pictures of is that around 75% of them have dual quads installed.

I also have pictures of maybe 5 cars with single carbs that have blue valve covers and black air cleaners. In common for those cars however is that they appear to have gone through significant restoration/modification work and do not appear as untouched as the cars I just posted. I don't have pictures of a single car that has an untouched/original look and has blue valve covers & black air cleaner. If they were all delivered that way I find it strange that none of the "untouched" cars I have pictures of have that.  I'll try to post pictures of those cars soon.

[57eldoking]

Maybe an admin could create a new thread for all replies from #15 as everything after that has been about 57 Eldorado single carb air cleaners and valve covers and not frame marks...

[Walter Youshock]

I wish I had the answer to this dilemma.  I don't nor have I heard from Bill Anderson...

If anyone is,aattending Nationals and would like to ask him in person, please do.

I do have photos of original black air cleaners with the silk screened decals.  Gotta dig them up from an old computer.

The decal was centered between the hump and the air intake horn.

[Paul Tesone]

 Henning - good idea about a new thread . And thanks so much for posting your pictures . Love detective work like this . Paul Tesone CLC #6876

[Ralph Messina CLC 4937]

I’m sure most of the experienced guys know this, but here it goes for any newbies following this thread. You can positively identify an engine built by the factory as dual quad “Q” code by the Engine Unit Number.  All dual quad Engine Unit Numbers are 70QK1 and up, or 70QX1 and up for AC and without AC respectively. The number was stamped on the bell housing portion of the crankcase behind the driver’s cylinder bank. The numbers are sequential to the engine’s production, not car assembly. It is a lot control system defining what parts / specifications were used in that engine  e.g.: there are two different pushrod part numbers depending on the EUN.  The Engine Serial Number was stamped on the upper passenger cylinder bank when it was assigned to the specific vehicle and it matches the number on the chassis rail.

[Walter Youshock]

And the code "Q" should appear on the body plate.  At least for '57 as it was the optional engine.

[57eldoking]

And the code "Q" should appear on the body plate.  At least for '57 as it was the optional engine.

I've never seen the Q appear on the body plate in 1957. In my experience the only ways to verify the Q engine is to check the engine unit number like Ralph explained (provided your engine is matching #s), through the Cadillac build record or window sticker/car order should those still exist.


Biarritz #157: No Q on the body plate, but present on its build record.












Seville #1891: Same thing












Seville #2055: Q code visible on the distributor invoice

[Walter Youshock]

This is giving me a headache...  too much thinking.

I'm wondering now how did you get an Eldorado with a Q engine--order it?  Had to have been the case. 

I did jump the gun on the body plate showing the engine code.  Fleetwood body didn't care what engine the car eventually got.

[57eldoking]

Yes, the 57 Seville and Biarritz came standard with the 300 hp single carburetor Eldorado Engine. The Q-code engine was a no-cost option and had to be specified when ordered. 1957 was the only year (as far as I know) where the Q-code engine could only be ordered/had in an Eldorado.

On the 57 Eldorado Brougham however, the Q-code engine was standard and the only engine available.

[Walter Youshock]

True.  One theory for making the Q engine an option on the Biarritz and seville was to make the Brougham even more exclusive and, if Brougham sales were strong, there would be a constant supply of Q engines.

Trying to convince non-Eldorado owners who put dual quads on their cars is for another thread...