Point deduction for disc brakes?

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

Being of Italian descent, I can get a rise out of a good 'ol broohaha as much as anybody (which I'm sure comes as no surprise to anyone who's been around here for any length of time). 

However, after a while it starts to get tiresome whenever a new issue is raised regarding every pet peeve of authenticity. Half the discussions could stand just as they are with only a few words changed in the subject line. In the end it gets us nowhere while making us look silly, petty and childish in the process. Hardly best image to project to prospective outsiders looking to join the ranks.

That's all I have to say on the matter.

[gary griffin]

I questioned this when I was restoring my 1942-6719 and was told if for safety it was OK to add dual master cylinders, so I added them to my 1940 LaSalle and my 1942 Cadillac.
I had a master cylinder fail once and I was backing down a ramp and launching a boat into Puget Sound and almost sunk my car, trailer and pregnant wife.  Son turned 50 last week by the way. Maybe I need to tell him this story now?

[Cape Cod Fleetwood]

If you see my car on a trailer please call the police it has been stolen.

...brilliant...

Hey, I'm still the FNG but posts like this seem to illuminate the need for the new 'cruiser' class...
5 judges; 3 Cadillac, 2 common people pulled from the crowd who wouldn't know a Cadillac from a Corvette.
1 piece of paper with the car's number on it and the judges put their judging number on it, which is simply a 'score' between 1-10: based on visually DO YOU *LIKE* IT.

Boom...

see you at the 2060 GN

\m/
Laurie

[cadillacmike68]

Personally has nothing to do with it.  Make your issue known at a CLC judging meeting or forward your suggestions to someone who can change them. Unless you do that what you say here makes no difference.

But all this stuff about safety this and safety that is a fig leaf.  Used to change the rules to suit certain people. Change the rules the proper way if you want to try.

Yes it is safer, but just drive a bit defensively and alert. You should live. They way some guys talk here everyone who got into a car built before 1972 should be dead. Last time I looked, most people who experienced driving a pre-1972 auto survived it. Also how often do drive your car? If you drive it everyday then change it, but if you drive it everyday maybe it should not be entered for judging.

If you are so worried about safety, change all you want or maybe just drive a tank.

Ummm,  US Army nearly 30 years - yeah, I drove a tank before.

And yes I drive the 1968 A LOT. I didn't buy it and repair it to sit in the garage.

And NO I DO NOT like some of the judging rules. And I don't have to. And I can complain about them all I want. You don't have to listen. There Is an ignore function., at least on most BBS.

[BlackCads]

Thanks to all for the comments. Living in Boston and driving the Sedan de Ville in city traffic, often with passengers, requires good brakes. I have tried everything to improve the braking power on this car and they are good but not excellent. My "benchmark" is my 65 Eldorado, also equipped with drum brakes, which stops like a dream. The Sedan de Ville has a noticeably harder pedal and longer stopping distance, so I am going to try the front discs. My question about points was more theoretical than practical, as I am not planning on having the car judged any time soon. The Sedan de Ville was judged (Touring) at the 2014 GN and came in fourth or fifth because of radial tires, incorrect exhaust system (no resonator), wrong gas cap, etc. No big deal. I still love my car!!

[35-709]

The brakes on your '65 Eldorado are the same as those on your '65 Sedan deVille.  If they do not work as well on your deVille then a thorough brake system inspection is in order.  You might start with your power brake booster if your pedal is hard.  Check also the vacuum hose going to the booster, I had one fail internally and it was a real head-scratcher trying to figure out what the problem was even after replacing the booster itself.  Fortunately, a friend smarter than me suggested that I check the hose which looked normal on the outside --- bingo!   

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

Agreed with 35-709 above.

There is no reason why the brake system of the '65 SdV shouldn't perform every bit as well as that of the '65 Eldorado. Also concur with Mr Newcombe's advice which is where I would start looking myself.

[cadillacmike68]

The front drum brakes on Cadillacs up to and including 1968 worked adequately. they are plenty big enough to dissipate heat, etc to keep fade to acceptable levels, even under hard braking. Even CR in their April 1968 review of the 1968 Sedan deVille did Not disparage the car's drum brakes. They did mention how the braking could be rough on the tires and showed a pic of a tire. I have an original of that issue.

City traffic is at much slower speeds than highway driving so drums should be fine there. If you are constantly needing to hit the brakes hard, then you are following too close.

You should not have to convert the drums to disc, Eric and others have pointed out where to look when there is an issue. I myself have had to replace a booster, master (twice) hose and check valve over time.

But the front disc brakes are FAR easier to service than front drums. 

[gkhashem]

Every time I buy an old car I always at a minimum change the brake hoses and wheel cylinders along with an inspection of the drums and pads

A brake hose can look new on the outside and collapse on the inside. I have had it happen. Real cheap to do the above, brakes are not worth going cheap on. Plus every few years I like to bled the brake lines with flesh fluid.

Then look over the master.

[Ralph Messina CLC 4937]

I can’t help myself. I’ve long had a ministry in agitation, aggravation, and chaos. They are among a few the joys in an otherwise censored, politically correct world.

The three immutable Laws of Thermodynamics apply everywhere in the known universe and can be paraphrased as:

First: Ya can’t get something for nothing
Second: You can’t even break even
Third: You can’t get out of the game regardless of how you try.

The Third is the Law of Entropy which more specifically states that all systems are not only degenerating into randomness and chaos, but all attempts to prevent it or recreate order will eventually produce more chaos. Applying this to social media and on line posts, particularly to judging,  predicts that they will eventually expand to include all opinions until exhausted.  Said simply, all topics have the tendency to eventually end with beating a dead horse. See, we’re doing just what the universe and Mother Nature intended…..Nothing wrong.

That’s my contribution for today to agitation, aggravation and chaos in the universe....... 

[cadillacmike68]

@blackcads;

Hard pedal = lack of boost. Check your booster.

If you want a set of steering knuckles with the arm, and disc brake backing plate, etc for 68-69, which will fit back to 61 (I think) PM me. I have a set. No rotors, you can buy those new still.

[Cape Cod Fleetwood]

I can’t help myself. I’ve long had a ministry in agitation, aggravation, and chaos. They are among a few the joys in an otherwise censored, politically correct world.

The three immutable Laws of Thermodynamics apply everywhere in the known universe and can be paraphrased as:

First: Ya can’t get something for nothing
Second: You can’t even break even
Third: You can’t get out of the game regardless of how you try.

The Third is the Law of Entropy which more specifically states that all systems are not only degenerating into randomness and chaos, but all attempts to prevent it or recreate order will eventually produce more chaos. Applying this to social media and on line posts, particularly to judging,  predicts that they will eventually expand to include all opinions until exhausted.  Said simply, all topics have the tendency to eventually end with beating a dead horse. See, we’re doing just what the universe and Mother Nature intended…..Nothing wrong.

That’s my contribution for today to agitation, aggravation and chaos in the universe....... 

MIT, RPI or GaTech?

\m/
Laurie!

[Ralph Messina CLC 4937]

Laurie,

NCE with a masters in George Carlin

[Cape Cod Fleetwood]

Laurie,

NCE with a masters in George Carlin

\m/
Laurie

[bcroe]

Yes it is safer, but just drive a bit defensively and alert. You should live. They way some guys talk here everyone who got into a car built before 1972 should be dead. Last time I looked, most people who experienced driving a pre-1972 auto survived it. Also how often do drive your car?

How optimistic is that?  Sure near new cars had reasonably reliable
brakes.  Cars nearing half a century will demonstrate all sorts of brake
failures not originally seen.  I am NOT speaking theoretically.  My late
70s cars have been driven more or less continuously since new, the
average mileage is near 300,000 miles.  Defensive driving will not
defend against brake failure. 

If very well maintained, old brake systems may do OK in fair
weather.  Some were better than others for me.  But none were
entirely predictable in the wet, which is why every car here has
front discs.  Bruce Roe

[Scot Minesinger]

Agree with Bruce, if you drive your car in the rain, disk brakes are best.  Most of us do not do that with our classics, and so for most applications 1960's drums are fine if in proper repair. 

I never drove a drum brake car until in my 50's.  My first car was a 1965 Thunderbird (first year of disk brakes), 1968 Thunderbird, 1978 Olds 88 and so on all disk brake equipped.  Then when I got into the old car hobby in 2013 I drove a friend's 1967 Cadillac RWD. They were not adjusted correctly and were grabby at low speed.  Others have worked perfectly.

And I still do not like the judging rules:  Radial tires are a must!, even with drum brakes.

[Jon S]

 We are getting off the topic of this discussion as to judging criteria.  I also have a Corvette and the anal judging there requires that every nut and bolt and washer be authentic.   And I can tell you many that claim to be authentic are far from it.   Does that make them bad cars  - no, but it makes them different than how they left the factory.  Very few of us in this club have had their car since new and; therefore, do not know the history of any and all changes made to them.  I have met many people who swear this is the way they came came from the factory when I and others know for sure it is not.   My car has had a radial tires on it since 1973 and I would never go back to bias ply tires.   This is not so much for safety as it is for comfort and riding characteristics.  As to the discussion of disc versus drum brakes I agree with the comments that if the drum brakes are well-maintained they will stop a 5000 pound car with no problem.   This discussion can go on forever and each side will  provide lots of details to back up for their way of thinking.  That is why judging criteria are set up and enforced.
 

[gkhashem]

Nice that you drive your cars everyday, through rain, sleet and snow I suppose.

I do not drive them except in nice weather and I try to maintain them as they were designed.

So I really do not understand the issue here. If you drive them daily do whatever you want to, actually it's your car do whatever makes you happy.

Also to argue that driving defensively is not important. Does a 60 year old car handle as well as a modern car? (Yes I have one car with radials on it and new shocks, my 1966) There seems to be a limit on how well the car maneuvers no matter what tires I have on the car. So to laugh at not recognizing the limitations of an old car at high speeds on busy roads is not important is plain ridiculous. I would hate to meet that person on the highway who drives his classic the same way they drive their modern car.

But I fail the see the over whelming fear of bias tires and drum brakes for well maintained and properly driven cars.  My experience is that maintenance of old cars is a lot of hard work, I know I have 10 cars! No one said not to replace or repair 50 year old systems. This makes sense. How about people who drive around on rotted 20 year old radial tires? Are those safer than new bias tires?  How about not changing the brake hoses on a disc brake while the hose collapses internally. Those disc brakes are kind of useless in that situation.

It boils down to the owner and the willingness to maintain the car. Also not to cut every corner you can get away with.

If the maintenance is good then the overwhelming amount of time you should be safe.  I am done beating the horse for now.

[cadillacmike68]

Nice that you drive your cars everyday, through rain, sleet and snow I suppose.

I do not drive them except in nice weather and I try to maintain them as they were designed.

So I really do not understand the issue here. If you drive them daily do whatever you want to, actually it's your car do whatever makes you happy.

Also to argue that driving defensively is not important. Does a 60 year old car handle as well as a modern car? (Yes I have one car with radials on it and new shocks, my 1966) There seems to be a limit on how well the car maneuvers no matter what tires I have on the car. So to laugh at not recognizing the limitations of an old car at high speeds on busy roads is not important is plain ridiculous. I would hate to meet that person on the highway who drives his classic the same way they drive their modern car.

But I fail the see the over whelming fear of bias tires and drum brakes for well maintained and properly driven cars.  My experience is that maintenance of old cars is a lot of hard work, I know I have 10 cars! No one said not to replace or repair 50 year old systems. This makes sense. How about people who drive around on rotted 20 year old radial tires? Are those safer than new bias tires?  How about not changing the brake hoses on a disc brake while the hose collapses internally. Those disc brakes are kind of useless in that situation.

It boils down to the owner and the willingness to maintain the car. Also not to cut every corner you can get away with.

If the maintenance is good then the overwhelming amount of time you should be safe.  I am done beating the horse for now.

No sleet or snow here, but I get caught in the rain All The Time.

And I leave a LOT of room in front of the car, but that usually just makes duma$$es just want to cut in front all the more often...

[jackworstell]

Nope

" You can't even break even"  is the Entropy Law

Jack Worstell