71 Eldorado Starter Sticking

[Rich Sullivan CLC #11473]

Started my 71 Eldorado Convertible with 47,000 miles for the third time today (had just returned from a short trip where about one-half mile from my house the car hesitated on two occasions to get into gear while accelerating from a red light, then it drove fine for the return trip--it had warmed-up moreso) and there was a loud rattling noise under the hood, and the car would not turn off even when key was turned back and the key removed from the ignition--the gear selector also stuck in Park position, but about five minutes later I got it into Drive, the car went forward a few feet, then it died. Called over my neighbor about twenty minutes later, and he tried the car again, backed it into the garage with no problems and no noise, and his diagnosis was that the starter was sticking, that I may need a new Distributor (they can go at any time). Im not any mechanic at all, so any ideas what it might be (to tell the repair shop, if Im able to make it there next week)?

[Porter 21919]

Rich,

I have never experienced any of those symptoms in any of my old cars, the oldest being a 65 Impala with a 327 and a powerglide tranny , sweet ride.

Starters either work or they dont, with a bad starter drive the starter will just spin and not engage, Ive never had one stuck while engaged, maybe someone else has, then you would just turn the key off and shut the engine off.

Never have seen a distributor just go at any time, they slowly wear out and the timing fluctuates.

Get the car towed to a competent mechanic, I would assume there is a problem with your igntion (key , starting system switch)system if the key wont shut off (kill) the engine.

Back to my 67 CDV RR brake drum sandblasting, good luck.

Porter

[densie]

  Was the person that you talked to actually the mechanic, or just someone who wrote the service ticket?  Sometimes mechanics will wildly speculate about the problem before they have looked at anything.  I dont know why, but they do.  Sometimes they jump to conclusions before theyve heard everything that youve said.  Since it is working OK now, I would be worried about a misdiagnosis and having more problems later.  Try to get him to show you the old parts, or explain in detail why he did what he did to fix it.

> the gear selector also stuck in Park position, but about five minutes later I got it into Drive, the car went forward a few feet, then it died

  This is a column shift, right?  If the gearshift was physically jammed, what would the starter or distributor have to do with that?  I would be more inclined to think that the ignition switch, pushrod or something inside the column was screwed up, which would explain the engine dying, the starter sticking, the failure to turn off, and the jammed gearshift.  

  However, it doesnt explain the transmission not going into gear, unless the shift linkage was in between positions, maybe?  Im not a transmission person.

  Distributors with points, in my experience, dont just go out suddenly like the modern cars do.  The engine will have a miss that gets steadily worse.

-denise

[art woody]

Sounds to me like run on detonation caused most likely by using too low of octane fuel in your high compression engine. Try adding highest octane you can purchase, if that doesnt solve the run on, then the timing may have to be adjusted via the distributor (retard ignition).

[Rich Sullivan CLC 11473]

A big thank you to all of you who have replied. I think it is more than the starter sticking, also. That diagnosis was just a guess from a non-mechanic. The car was properly in Park when this trouble occurred. Earlier in the day, on a short drive, the car had seemed to be in Neutral as I tried to accelerate at the first redlight on a drive to a shopping center, and again as I first pulled into that parking lot. After having parked and shopped, the car drove home perfectly--and the engine had warmed up. However, a few hours later I went back out to drop the top on this sunny Sunday, but I never got more than a few feet within the garage. Upon starting the car, there was a very loud sound of something rattling under the hood, and then it would not shut off even when the key was turned back and removed--and after about five minutes (couldnt get the power window I had lowered to go back up either during this episode)the gear shifter engaged Drive--and I was going to drive it outside to raise the hood--to check for the rattle/noise--but the car only went about six feet and made a croaking sound as it died. Then I pushed it back some (a condominium garage--I did not want to block the lane for other residents). When my neighbor came along twenty minutes or so later, he tried it and it started normal, and idled quietly, and he maneuvered it back to its parking space better. I guess Ill have it towed to a Cadillac dealer, hopefully for a proper diagnosis. Ive just cosmetically restored the car, and it has had one previous owner, and it is a beauty--it was maintained/driven, although very little (in-town driving--and it has 47,800 original miles) until I bought it. In May my Cadillac dealer did a 27 point safety inspection, changed the fluids and then replaced the battery. At the end of July the same dealer did the Pennsylvania state inspection--they, along with the body shop/restorer said they could not find anything mechanical wrong with the car. Ive driven it about 300+ trouble-free miles until today. Incidentally, I buy the second to the highest octane Sunoco gasoline when refueling (they have four grades). The car only drips very small oil spots, recently noticed after longer rides. Sorry Im not a mechanic of any kind, but eventually Ill post what the findings are.

[Mike #19861]

 Your description makes it sound like there is a problem in the steering column. Try tilting the wheel up and down (if it has this option) and see if that makes any differance.

 When the ignition switch is engaged in the start position, none of the accessories wil work. Their power being restored when the key returns to the run position.

 The rack off the tumbler also locks and unlocks the shifter and locks the wheel. This can prevent proper gear engagement, and possibly even prevent the wheel from turning. I would not attempt to drive the car when this condition is existant.

 For me, I would look here first. Also, inspect the inkage at the frame. They have a spring and ball that is notorious for seixing up causing a sloppy shifter and imprecise gear selection.

  Mike

 PS

 A good mechanic will not wildly speculate a problem. He will offer up a sound theory, but leave it open to further diagnosis. Many mechanics will not offer up any solution since a speculation of this sort may in turn cause grief for everyone involved. There really are too many so-called mechanics out there that will do this in order to make themselves look good when they really have no idea what is really going on. Stay away from them.

 

[Rich Sullivan CLC #11473]

Thanks for the input. Today I had the car flatbedded to the dealer--I did not feel comfortable driving it after knowing what had occurred; however, it drove out of the garage and onto the flatbed perfectly, and it drove through the dealership lot fine also, into the service bay. I had to go back to work, and they said theyll call me after they look into the problem. Ill post the findings.

[Rich Sullivan CLC #11473]

Picked up the car from the dealer and parts of the repair order state:

Job #1: Original ignition keys extremely worn, key would pull out of ignition with vehicle in gear, could not get condition where engine would stay running with ignition in off position.
Cut new key blanks for ignition key--[key stays in.]

Also, next Job #2: Road test. Trans slipping on acceleration. Check transmission fluid--fluid low. Add 2 Qts ATF. Inspect for leaking (No major leak, slight dampness at pan.) Check Shift Linkage--Road test after adding trans fluid--OK, not slipping now.

Job #3: Engine noise diagnostics: Owner heard belt type noise (loud) upon starting vehicle--no noise heard at this time but there is some noise from A/C compressor when running. [No charge.]

The items mentioned by those who replied on the Board here were also checked, and no problems were detected. Many thanks to those who offered advice! The car drove home perfectly, and hopefully this was all that was needed. However, Im contemplating having the engine detailed, and as that is done, any of the replaceable items replaced soon.

[Bruce Reynolds # 18992]

Gday Rich,

Dont you just hate it when something that has been bugging you cant be replicated when it comes time to repair.

Good to see you are happy now, but, when was the last time you checked the oil in the Transmission.

Being 2 quarts down is a fair way.   Lucky they caught it before too much damage was done.

Being low, although still operating, it doesnt take long for the remaining oil to get too hot and that leads to decreased trans life.

Bruce,
The Tassie Devil(le),
60 CDV

[Dick Heller]

My neighbor uses a mixture of airline fuel and high-octane gasoline in all his Corvettes.

Sounds to me like run on detonation caused most likely by using too low of octane fuel in your high compression engine. Try adding highest octane you can purchase, if that doesnt solve the run on, then the timing may have to be adjusted via the distributor (retard ignition).

[art woody]

I have a .060 over 454 (468c.i.) engine I have drag raced in 4WD mud boggs for 15 years, never running anything else but straight aviation fuel. Prefer it over race fuel because I know it is not cut or added to with who knows what. Runs 150 ft. from standing stop in knee deep mud in under 3 sec. It will freeze your hand on a hot day if emersed, the evaporation rate is so fast.

[Rich Sullivan CLC #11473]

Since I got the car Ive only driven it about 300 miles or so, as I immediately had the cosmetic restoration started and done during last winter--that shop was supposed to have checked the mechanical aspects as well--then I had a 27 point safety inspection by my Cadillac dealer (replaced the battery and a few things, flushed coolant, etc.) in early Spring (supposedly what they do to used cars before putting them in their lot), then in July the dealer performed the Pennsylvania State Inspection. After each of these visits to shops I was assured that everything checked-out in good mechanical order. At least I did not put many miles on the car. As I said initially, unfortunately I have very little, if any, mechanical knowledge/ability--but Im LEARNING! (Although a Cadillac enthusiast since a very young age, I only detail my car(s) meticulously myself.)Im planning to go ahead and let the restoration shop detail the engine soon, replacing seals and other items that they suggest. The transmission fluid must have been low for some time, as my garage has hardly anything that has dripped from the car, and the restoration shop said the same thing.

[Bruce Reynolds # 18992]

Rich,

Maybe you should advise the garage to ammend their 27 point safety inspection to a  28 point safety inspection.

But, I suppose they dont consider the level of the trans fluid a safety related item.

The best thing that you can purchase for your own information is a Workshop Manual and a Body Manual.   You will find that it will be the best investment you make.

Remember, we all started once with no automotive knowledge.

Bruce,
The Tassie Devil(le),
60 CDV

[Mike #19861]

 Thanks for the follow up! Im glad they did not find anything more serious than worn keys and low transmission fluid.

 2 quarts low can cause slipping.Maybe thats something you can check periodically yourself, along with the other fluids. Its an easy start to getting into the mechanics of the car, and is a simple measure to help prevent problems later on.

  Mike

[Denise 20352]

  Check the modulator valve.  If the diaphragm has ruptured, it can suck transmission fluid into the engine and you wont see anything under the car.

-denise

[Denise]

  Airline fuel, you mean avgas, or kerosene?

-denise

[art woody]

I am refering to aviation fuel or avgas available at my local airport used for prop-driven aircraft, lawfully for off road use only. (You can mix it with any octane pump gasoline)Supposedly contains lead, rated at 114-115 octane. Makes your exhaust a distinctive sweet smell, you will learn to know if any competitor is running it. Art

[Denise]

  I used to use it in my 70 Toronado, 10.5:1 compression as most engines were in 70.  It was tolerant of a little more spark advance than it was with premium unleaded.  You definitely wouldnt want to put it in a 75 or later with catalyst, though.  Even though it says low-lead in the name, it has more lead in it than that old regular leaded gas did.

-densie  (A&P mechanic)