I am driving my 1958 Cadillac Eldorado Brougham to Grand National (and to all 48 states--a total of 14,000 miles this summer). But I'm having a reoccurring electrical problem that I could really use some expert advice and council. It has me utterly stumped. My car keeps eating voltage regulators. Some facts:
1. The battery is fine. It tests okay and holds a charge well. (due to this ongoing problem, I keep a spare, fully-charged battery in the trunk). Both are Delcos and one is a deep cycle Marine battery.
2. The generator is fine. It charges well and was rebuilt recently by a pro. It was also bench checked last week by another pro (1,500 miles ago)
3. The wiring from the voltage regulator to the generator is new. I replaced that when the generator was bench checked.
4. The voltage regulator is new. In fact, this is the third. It is, I believe, a 45-55 amp. regulator. The Brougham had a different regulator from the standard car and the shop manual says it should be 53-57 amperes. (I'm guessing this is my problem)
5. The gauge is fine. When we checked the voltage output at the battery and voltage output at the generator and regulator, the gauge was always spot-on as to what was happening.
6. The grounds and cables are good. I experience only a negligible voltage drop between the voltage regulator and the battery in the trunk.
Symptoms? The voltage regulator and indeed the entire system worked beautifully for a few days of long drives. Then the voltage regulator begins to take a little bit to go from discharging to charging. So instead of just popping right up to charging the moment I hit the gas, the system takes a block or two to respond--regardless of throttle pressure. Today? Well, same old story as the last two regulators. Today the needle just reads discharging. The point won't engage and click me up to "charging." This is maddening.
My gut? The center points on the last (inadequately sized, though visually identical) voltage regulator were purple. I bet the 45-55 amp regulator that's in the car right now has the same purple points.
1. Can these be cleaned the way the 1958 Brougham manual suggests (ie: crocus cloth and tetrachloride)?
2. Does anyone have a Delco part number for the 1958 Eldorado Brougham voltage regulator?
3. Can anyone think of another issue that may be at play here?
Thanks in advance. For pictures of all this, visit my blog on http://www.Motorpool.com (http://www.motorpool.com)
MM
After looking and reading about your non-stock car, why not just put on an alternator? It will have an internal regulator, loads of amperage, and with very little modification to the generator bracketry.
I converted my '59 a few years ago in about an hour. Now I have a 150 amp alternator that handles all the accessories, A/C 600 watt sound system, electric fans etc...
Get a Delco 12SI, clocked at 12 o'clock and put it on, wire it up and forget about ancient generators.
MisFit
POLARIZING YOUR GENERATOR
http://web.utk.edu/~tprather/FoothillsTractorClub/TechTips/PolarizeGenerator.html
Agreed, I would suggest finding the root problem before making any changes. It would help to know what fails internally in the regulator, the voltage or amperage control. Why is the battery in the trunk, this requires a much larger cable also.
Thanks for the replies and tips. The electrical shop that bench tested the generator may not have polarized it, so I will phone them this morning to make sure.
My car is 100% stock, down to the bias tires, original shocks, T3's, and air ride, so I'm going to stick with the generator system. The only non-stock items are the temporary air ride compressor (the original blew early on) and the stickers on the paint job (which are removable and will be taken off at the end of the trip).
Thanks,
Morgan
The middle contact is turning dark purple, which sounds like the generator is not polarized. Oddly, the manual goes to great lengths to warn mechanics "NEVER GROUND the generator field with the regulator connected to the generator. This would instantly burn up the lower set of contact points on the regulator."
The John Deere instructions posted above would seem to do just that. Then again, the new voltage regulators seem different than the models show in the manual. And since I've already gone through 3 regulators, I say what the heck, it may be worth trying.
Oh, and the manual specifies a 55 amp voltage regulator, which is what is on the car.
MM
A couple things:
First: you need a double-contact regulator for AC cars.
Second: like I was told by my dad's old mechanic buddy Chick Boccadori: "You can't just take it out of the box and expect it to work! You have to ADJUST it!" The process takes some time, but you need to have someone with an ampmeter to follow the Shop Manual instructions and properly adjust it as per the instructions. A Delco is still the best regulator. I still have my original on the '57--it's about the only thing that works right on the car! It also has to be brought to about 120 degrees because the engine heat will affect the spring tension. This should be done ON THE CAR with the car running. That way, it can be tweaked for your generator. When I did mine, I adjusted 2 Regulators and keep the non-Delco in the trunk--just in case.
Third: Polorizing the Generator is easy--take a piece of wire and touch it to the "GEN" and "BAT terminals on the Regulator. They should be the two terminals toward the top of the Regulator.
Hi Morgan
Sorry you still have the problem. P/N for the regulator is 1119605, 55 amp w/cover, Brougham only.
David
Hi Morgan,been reading your trip entries,really enjoy them.Also when driving the car do you have any load on the generator?,if no lights on or anything it may be overcharging and could be frying the points that way?especially on a long drive it would have no draw to make it cut in and out like it is supposed to.They are right about having to set up both the generator and regulator together,it will never work right without this,there is a old guy in my town that is in his early 90s,he works part time at his sons auto-electric shop,he did mine and it works perfectly,would not work at all before he set up yhe 2 of them,however i am in Prince Edward Island,Canada a little ways from you.but if you decide to do canada in your trip i will introduce you to this man.Good Luck. Harvey B
I'd suggest polarizing the generator. I would only adjust the regulator if it needed it , and it the almost thirty years of owning old cars [all with generators, no alternators] I have never needed to adjust one. I have on occasion flicked the contacts and spryed them with WD40 when the car has been standing a while and the charge lght won't go off, but that's it! A sure fire way of polarising is to take the fan belt off and run the generator like a motor .
Good luck,
Phil
Shoulda bought a Packard! ;D
Polorizing is done by jumping the "BAT" and "GEN" terminals on the regulator, NOT the "FLD". That WILL fry it.
It takes all of 2 seconds to do this...
Quote from: Walter Youshock on June 16, 2009, 10:00:01 PM
Polorizing is done by jumping the "BAT" and "GEN" terminals on the regulator, NOT the "FLD". That WILL fry it.
It takes all of 2 seconds to do this...
I've read the blog and saw that you've had lots of battery trouble and it's been disconnected and replaced a few times. EVERY time the battery is removed/disconnected, the generator must be polarized. It's not a one time thing when it's new then forget it.
Could almost even put a toggle switch between the two terminals if the battery is disconnected often enough just to speed things up a bit.
Quote from: Walter Youshock on June 16, 2009, 10:00:01 PM
Polorizing is done by jumping the "BAT" and "GEN" terminals on the regulator, NOT the "FLD". That WILL fry it.
It takes all of 2 seconds to do this...
This Polarizing process is done with the engine running or off? Does it matter what position the key switch is in? I must have been very lucky as my battery has been disconnected many times and while the car has been running, ( about 6 weeks) the gen needle has reacted the same way.
As a side note, when working on the Brougham, many of the repair procedures state to disconnect the battery either early in the repair process or beginning. I've never seen a statement at the end of the assembly portion of the procedure to polarize the generator. Was this just assumed every seasoned Cadillac mechanic would know this?
Now I'm nervous about this polarizing issue and if it is that easy to do, then by all means I want to ensure it's done to mine. Please confirm the correct time to jump the terminals.
Thanks
David
Battery connected; car NOT running; key "off".
It really only has to be done once, otherwise, everybody with a battery disconnect would be zapping voltage regulators at car shows.
Polarizing was probably not the issue. I've spoken to about six electrical experts in the past 24 hours and the consensus seems to be: new voltage regulators are horrible. One fellow said, "my experience has been that only one in five work."
This will be a major blog entry tomorrow on Motorpool with lots of detail and pictures of my melted brushes and voltage regulators. I really appreciate all of your thoughts and suggestions.
Have ANY of the replacements been a DELCO?
Do you still have the original Delco? Maybe it can be rebuilt--rewound and points replaced.
Would still be a good idea to polarize the generator though - ya think ?
Declaring only 1 out of 5 voltage regulators is any good seems a bit ludicrous to me but that's just my opinion.
I suspected this was your problem weeks ago , eating batteries and voltage regulators.
Let the old timers weigh in here on this issue, not my bailiwick.
Porter ::)
I would need more information such as voltage readings on the battery and the generator output after the car has run for long enough to charge the battery.
Glen
There used to be a Brougham owners association club . I think it gone now because of a death of the owner. There is a gentleman in california named Rizutto i think that has spent alot of his own monet reproducing brougham parts . He also has alot of parts. I think maybe he could supply you with a regulator. I would go with polrizing and fine tune adjusting of regulator. But i think you will need the 55 amp. I think its amaizing and absolutely wonderful that you are driving that car all those miles. Peolpe on the road will for the first and only time in thier life see what a truly breathtaking and God like styling our auto fore fathers could produce. I wish i could be in the back taking in the sights. Keep it original at all costs.
The company Paul refers to is MaterMind: http://www.mastermindinc.net/
It does not seem like he has the 55 amp regulator in the lists though :(
If you have a 55 Amp Generator in the car you do need a regulator of the same "size".
Why would they bother with developing two versions of the regulator if the larger one was not needed with the larger generator?
How does the regulator work anyway?
Does the regulator sit between the generator and the battery? What I mean is if the thick lead from the generator is connected to the regulator or the battery?
My guess is that it goes to the regulator. This means the the regulator will have to carry the high current from the generator and this will kill the contacts over time.
Voltages: On all (50-60s) Cadillac models, EXCEPT the Eldorado Brougham, the battery is located in the engine compartment (or in front of the radiator) and will be heated by the engine and AC condenser to some extent (at least while cruising at low speeds). The system voltage are held back due to this in order to not cook off the liquid in the battery. This is either done by a fixed reduction or by using temperature compensation (such as in the alternators with integral regulator intruduced in mid-late sixties).
A higher system voltage may be allowed for the Eldorado Broughams (57-60) which all have the battery in the cooler trunk.
Some guidance about maximum Voltages for various temperatures
32F and below: 14.3V
50F: 14.0V
68F: 13.6V
86F: 13.5V
104F: 13.2V
above 104F: 13.0V
If your battery voltage are below these levels (with car running) your battery will not be sufficiently charged.
Measure at the battery posts!
If the voltage are above these levels there will be cookoff of liquid and you will need to add clean water to your battery.
An alternative solution if you are unable to find the right regulator may be to install a standard generator from a 58 Seville or Deville with matching regulator.
If you do not use all accessories all the time this smaller generator may be sufficient. The Eldorado Brougham dopes have a lot of extras requiring more electrical power such as rear floor heater fans and electrical compressor for the air ride but if you do not use these all the time and do not use your lights during daytime you should be fine with a smaller generator.
About polarizing the generator I have no clue when this is required, but if you do not get any output from the generator or if you are getting too low output (mesure with a clip-on current meter), polarizing is the first thing to try once you are sure the generator is properly grounded.
Lars-Ove Jansson
Engineer, Seville 1976, Sweden
CLC member 19067