Looking for opinions on Zinc additive for motor oils.
Is this needed or recommended for more recent cars. I have a 1991 Cadillac with a 4.9L, and as far as I can tell in 1991 there was more zinc in the oil then.
Any thoughts on this?
Your engine has roller lifters so modern low zinc oil is fine. The issue with low zinc has to do with flat tapped cams not roller tapper cams.
I guess the oil in 1991 was still being used in older engines so that makes sense.
Thanks
Hi , George ! I see you have many flat tappet engines in your fleet. That implies that many , probably most , are not daily drivers. The finest oil on the market for your cars is Amsoil Z-Rod. Proper levels of zinc and phosphorus , in perhaps the most Synthetic of all Synthetic oils. It is also specifically formulated for protection against corrosion during periods of lay up. Standard disclaimer : I have absolutely no affiliation whatsoever with Amsoil. I just use their superior products. Oh yeah , use their synthetic grease , also. Now if anyone can prove a better lubricant is available , I will drop the "A" quicker than I would a scorpion in my coffee cup. Check out the Z-Rod , buy in as bulk quantity as possible , and treat the entire fleet to the best. Scorpion oil and dinosaur lard just won't win their (to take wide liberty in paraphrasing) , "heart anymore". - Carl
George -
Save yourself money on your older cars and add 1/2 container (8oz) of Red Line's Break In Oil. Has all the zinc and phosphorus you need at a reasonable price. Been using it for years with Pennzoil or Quaker State. You don't want to introduce synthetic oil to these cars.
Jon
Yes the zinc additive debate again. While I don't have a definitive opinion on this, my experience tells me to stick with an oil that was manufactured with the necessary zinc et-al, all-included, rather than by supplementing another oil with it. Not saying that you won't get some protection by using additives, but I am not satisfied that the various valve saving particles will remain in adequate suspension to provide the protection needed. The best my '56 Caddy has ever sounded and ran was on Valvoline's VR1, 10W30 (non-synthetic), Racing Oil. It has zinc added. I believe they also offer a synthetic variant of this product for those who wish to follow Carl's synth lead (and perhaps try the Amsoil Z-Rod as well that he recommended). A few of us are using this Valvoline oil that we now affectionately call "Dinosaur Juice". Yes, it is available on Amazon by the bottle or case yet it is cheaper to source locally. Seems to be one heck of a product. If it is good enough for a racing car engine I presume it will work well for us, especially as it is available in an acceptable viscosity grade. Like Carl, I have no vested interest in this product. So far, I would recommend this oil. I would not be adverse to learning about any negatives as we all want the best for our cars. Clay/Lexi
That's like saying Bardahl, Rislone, Lucas or STP dont mix with oil. Additives do mix with oil as do stop leak and enhancement products.
Nope. I did not say or imply that. Only reference made was to zinc. I mentioned the "suspension" thing as I read somewhere that it may be an issue for the zinc additives. Other products were not discussed. Clay/Lexi
There are some opinions out there that some of these additives seperate or don't mix at a molecular level, any roller cam and rockers engine is pretty much safe with modern oil. A broken in stock flat tappet engine with stock valve springs is less sensitive to needing Zddp.
Quote from: Jon S on January 20, 2018, 09:22:19 PM
George -
You don't want to introduce synthetic oil to these cars.
Jon
Please defend this statement. - CC
Quote from: lexi on January 20, 2018, 10:06:13 PM
The best my '56 Caddy has ever sounded and ran was on Valvoline's VR1, 10W30 (non-synthetic), Racing Oil. It has zinc added. A few of us are using this Valvoline oil that we now affectionately call "Dinosaur Juice". Seems to be one heck of a product. If it is good enough for a racing car engine I presume it will work well for us, especially as it is available in an acceptable viscosity grade. So far, I would recommend this oil.
Clay,
Before a lot of other brands were available regarding the Zinc content for older vehicles, I used the Valvoline on all my old cars...And Still Do. My cars seem to run really smooth and the 10W-30 is perfect for a newly rebuild engine. I don't like running heavier oils in any of my cars. I do like the Joe Gibbs Break-in oil, but after 500 miles it gets dumped and the Valvoline goes in. It's just personal preference as to what you like, and I happen to have had good luck running the VR1 oil with all the older flat tappet cam motors.
Bobby
Quote from: Carl Fielding on January 21, 2018, 12:54:54 AM
Please defend this statement. - CC
In Jon's Defense, some good reading from Castrol....
Bobby
Is Synthetic Oil Safe in Vehicles?
In the past, warnings were given about switching to synthetic oil because it could harm the engine. The reason for this was that many synthetic oils contained esters, which are organic compounds mixed with alcohol. This combination was often hard on seals in the engine, and would cause them to wear down and start to leak.
Synthetic oil technology has improved over the years, and most cars on the road today should be able to use either synthetic or regular oil, so long as the proper weight is used. In fact, some new cars require synthetic oil. However, one exception is with older vehicles, especially those with high mileage. The seals in those engines may not be able to handle the additives in synthetic oil. However, that doesn't mean it's impossible to switch to synthetic in an older car.
Tips for Using Synthetic Oils in Older Models
When using the term “older†to refer to cars, it means those manufactured before 1990 or so. The risk with these models is that the seals, gaskets, and other components often aren’t as tight as with newer models. Because synthetic oil does a better job of cleaning out sludge, it could remove deposits that are acting as seals. This could result in leaks that cause the engine to burn oil and require you to monitor your oil levels and replace it more often. If you don't, you risk damaging the engine or other components.
It’s not accurate to say that you should never use synthetic oil in an older car. In fact, Castrol EDGE High Mileage is a synthetic oil designed specifically for high-mileage cars. If the car has been maintained and is in excellent running condition, the synthetic oil may protect the vehicle and prolong its life. Also, anytime you change from conventional oil to synthetic oil, always make sure to change the oil filter with every oil change.
Signs of Problems with Synthetic Oil in Older Cars
If you decide to switch to synthetic oil for your older car, talk to a professional technician first. They may want to check over your vehicle and make any necessary repairs or replacements before making the switch. This will help protect your older model vehicle and ensure its long life and continued performance.
The way I see it is that you can use Synthetic Oil in an old car, so long as the engine has been completely rebuilt, and thereby fitted with all new seals.
BUT, is it worth it with the high cost of Synthetic oils as against the limited mileage that the older cars are doing. The "cut and thrust" of modern driving is a far cry from the cruising in the older vehicles, and full-flow filters didn't start till 1960 in Cadillacs, and back then, oil changes were every 1000 miles. I wouldn't be wanting to change synthetic oils every 1000 miles.
One must remember that the Synthetic Oils were designed for the late model vehicles with their modern internals, which allow for longer intervals between oil changes.
Bruce. >:D
I recently switched to Brad Penn Break In oil in my '49. Does anyone have an opinion?
When I first noticed that oil "changed"(low/no zinc), I struggled to get any info in regards as to why? I then purchased GM's genuine "breakin additive" and began to add it to my oil. Well, I pulled my oil pan for whatever reason and found gobs of it clinging to the bottom of my pan! The was the end of my GM additive and fortunately Valvoline (and others) came to the rescue and produced and promoted "racing oil". Problem solved......walt....tulsa,ok
Bobby thanks for the feedback! It is encouraging to hear positive comments on this Valvoline product. For those in the GTA who wish to purchase Valvoline VR1 (as well as many other quality lubricants), please visit Crescent Oil Company of Canada, 136 Cannon Street West, Hamilton, Ontario. Visiting this place is like stepping back in time and worth the visit for most gear-heads, (in business for over 100 years). You can purchase many products in bulk and they can order product for you that may not be on hand. Want Dexron Type III for your trany? It is here and you can buy it in bulk also. They advertise that they export to Europe as well. First ran across these guys who were set up at a classic car show, (I have no vested interest in this company). Yes they even had the VR1 in stock by the case. Recommended. Clay/Lexi
http://crescentoil.ca/
Quote from: Jay Friedman on January 21, 2018, 08:53:16 AM
I recently switched to Brad Penn Break In oil in my '49. Does anyone have an opinion?
Break-in oil is for break-in. It's meant to be dumped shortly afterwards. I would call them and ask if it's harmful to use it as your full time main oil supply. They make other oils. Worth a phone call.
Bobby
Quote from: walt chomosh #23510 on January 21, 2018, 10:18:03 AM
When I first noticed that oil "changed"(low/no zinc), I struggled to get any info in regards as to why? I then purchased GM's genuine "breakin additive" and began to add it to my oil. Well, I pulled my oil pan for whatever reason and found gobs of it clinging to the bottom of my pan! The was the end of my GM additive and fortunately Valvoline (and others) came to the rescue and produced and promoted "racing oil". Problem solved......walt....tulsa,ok
Walt,
After reading so many articles over the years regarding this, it seems it doesn't play well with oils and SUPPOSEDLY......needs to be heated and pre-mixed with a little bit of the oil that you're using before adding it in, or it will kind of stay in suspension. I'm not an expert, just try to do my homework. I don't know why anyone would even bother with an additive when there are products available to meet your needs. I find that most additives could be labeled as "Snake-Oil" anyway.....
Bobby
Not many here belong to SAE, where this is properly studied. There are numerous studies on Zn. Some are available online or excerpted. Search. {I no longer have access which I had through my employment with parent oil companies.(retired Chem E.)}
For starters, here's an available good general oil article. http://articles.sae.org/13555/
I suggest people study up on this before passing on their opinions.
Great article, I have been using Gm break in additive in a 350 Sbc, and a 331 Hemi, had the pan off both, didn't see any sign of some kind oil separation, of course this is not proof of the effectiveness of the additive, both engines are stock rebuilds., Used Mobil 1 in my 426 all out race car and bearing life as expected.
Quote from: Carl Fielding on January 21, 2018, 12:54:54 AM
Please defend this statement. - CC
Replacing dino oil with synthetic oil is all over the WEB and from friends it's been verified that leaks develop where there were none staying with dino oil. The tolerances were different and I stick to Quaker State and Pennzoil in 4 of my 5 cars. It's a personal decision, but I find changing my oil and filter every 2,000 miles has worked well for me. No sludge or varnish.
Quote from: walt chomosh #23510 on January 21, 2018, 10:18:03 AM
When I first noticed that oil "changed"(low/no zinc), I struggled to get any info in regards as to why? I then purchased GM's genuine "breakin additive" and began to add it to my oil. Well, I pulled my oil pan for whatever reason and found gobs of it clinging to the bottom of my pan! The was the end of my GM additive and fortunately Valvoline (and others) came to the rescue and produced and promoted "racing oil". Problem solved......walt....tulsa,ok
I find it hard to believe you found globs of break in oil clinging to the bottom of your pan. How did you distinguish this as break in oil? I've never had to drop the pans on any of my cars, but did replace the valley pan on the Cadillac. Viewing the upper side of the engine I was amazed at the absence of varnish and sludge. It looked like a 5,000 mile motor! I know when I drain my hot oil, it flows smoothly with no lumps or clumps and when I clean the filter housing there is nothing but an oil film in there. As such, I believe everything has mixed well and I am getting the protection I expect. BTW, the key to changing oil is to do it at operating temperature so all the acid and contaminants are held in suspension when you drain the oil.
I've had a few Flatheads apart and they all had one think in common....About 1/2"-1" of a almost solid like thick paste at the bottom of the pan that had to be removed with a metal putty knife. I can see that after "X" amount of years of neglect that this could happen. It was just weird that it almost looked identical in every one..... ???
Bobby
I have been adding ZDDP to my older engines and have never seen any goo in the pan or coming out of it?
Anyway have seen no issues and I probably am doing over kill but I have been changing the oil yearly no matter how many miles I have gone. I am debating going to a spring/fall rotation on my cars to maybe go 18 months. But I wonder if it is worth it to save $20.00-25.00.
I only drive on average 200-400 miles on the cars I have owned for more than a year. The newer acquisitions may go 1500-2000 miles the first year as I like to get the bugs out when I sort a car that's new to me.
I guess Jon the Lucas additive may be cheaper since you use half a bottle but we are splitting pennies at this point.
Quote from: Bobby B on January 21, 2018, 12:50:32 PM
I've had a few Flatheads apart and they all had one think in common....About 1/2"-1" of a almost solid like thick paste at the bottom of the pan that had to be removed with a metal putty knife. I can see that after "X" amount of years of neglect that this could happen. It was just weird that it almost looked identical in every one..... ???
Bobby
I must be fortunate since every time I get a "new" car I drop the oil pan, clean them out and change the pan gasket (unless the engine needs to be lifted to get the pan out and I get my mechanic to do that) and all my oil pans have been relatively clean. Lucky I guess. Same with the transmission pans only one car had some clutch debris in the pan. (the 1984 Oldsmobile and I have been told the transmissions were weak in those cars, it still works but may need a rebuild at some point and this was a 23K mile car when purchased by me)
Also have have a couple of valley covers off and no major sludge issues almost clean like new. Tells you what frequent oil changes do for an engine. Wish I could thank all the former owners for a job well done.
Quote from: Dave Shepherd on January 21, 2018, 12:01:35 PM
Great article, I have been using Gm break in additive in a 350 Sbc, and a 331 Hemi, had the pan off both, didn't see any sign of some kind oil seperation, of course this is not proof of the effectiveness of the additive, both engines are stock rebuilds., Used Mobil 1 in my 426 all out race car and bearing life is as expected.
BTW, the reason ZDDP levels (zinc and phosphorus) were reduced was to improve the life expectancy of catalytic converters in the newer cars not to mention roller bearings don't need the extra lubrication. Most of our flat tappet cars are pre-catalytic converters.
FWIW, I was told to use Lucas Hot Rod Oil in my 1970 Fleetwood. It was stated it had the highest amount of zinc. Its in the box along with the correct filter, waiting for 'engine day'. YMMV.
Laurie!
Quote from: Cape Cod Fleetwood on January 26, 2018, 11:08:08 PM
FWIW, I was told to use Lucas Hot Rod Oil in my 1970 Fleetwood. It was stated it had the highest amount of zinc. Its in the box along with the correct filter, waiting for 'engine day'. YMMV.
Laurie!
I use Shell Rotella T4 15w-40 In my 70. It's a great bang for the buck and is a quality off the shelf oil with more than enough zinc. Perfectly fine for use in summer temperatures according to the manual also.
5qt jug is about $20
Dan that is a great price. Is the weight OK?
I usually use 10W-30.
Quote from: gkhashem on January 28, 2018, 01:13:36 PM
Dan that is a great price. Is the weight OK?
I usually use 10W-30.
The weight is actually fine. The 40w is actually better for hot summer weather and the 15w is fine for but the coldest of mornings. They now are formulating 5w/50 for year round use. I doubt Dan is using the 1970 on sub freezing mornings.
Quote from: Bobby BI've had a few Flatheads apart and they all had one think in common....About 1/2"-1" of a almost solid like thick paste at the bottom of the pan that had to be removed with a metal putty knife. I can see that after "X" amount of years of neglect that this could happen. It was just weird that it almost looked identical in every one..... ??? Bobby
Could that layer be related to an engine not having an oil filter?
Doing oil, filter, and a dose of zinc every 2500 miles. On the rare
event of pan removal, about all I see is clean oil. Bruce Roe
Quote from: bcroe on January 28, 2018, 02:08:19 PM
Could that layer be related to an engine not having an oil filter?
Doing oil, filter, and a dose of zinc every 2500 miles. On the rare
event of pan removal, about all I see is clean oil. Bruce Roe
Remember a lot of flatheads (all) were built before the advent of detergent oils and these oils tended to develop sludge. If the flatheads have been rebuilt and using modern multi-viscosity detergent oils (as opposed to straight weight) and still develop that thick layer, then maybe the lack of the oil filter is the answer.
Quote from: bcroe on January 28, 2018, 02:08:19 PM
Could that layer be related to an engine not having an oil filter?
Doing oil, filter, and a dose of zinc every 2500 miles. On the rare
event of pan removal, about all I see is clean oil. Bruce Roe
Bruce,
The oil comes out looking like it does for a normal oil change. I'm talking about it being almost solidified. It seems to form a thick layer on the bottom that doesn't drain out, the oil just skates over it when you change it. You wouldn't notice it until you pull the pan off. Every engine had the same gunk, almost identical. Could just be my Plain Old Bad Luck ::).......
Bobby.......
FWIW I remember in the 50's that dropping the oil pan and cleaning out the gunk was a normal and routine maintenance procedure.
Greg Surfas
Could the sludge just be the result of the detergent oil actually cleaning the inside of the engine and this is depositing at the bottom of the pan after a few oil changes?
I found this online
When “detergent oils†first appeared, everyone’s engine repair business increased. Tired, worn out engines, full of sludge deposits because they had always been serviced with non-detergent oils, were ill advisedly transfused with detergent oil, which promptly attacked the sludge deposits. Engine bearing surfaces were flooded with oil containing a high concentration of newly suspended sludge particles. And during the phase-in of detergent engine oils, a number of chemical elixirs for “engine oil desludging†appeared. With current engines, we often encounter similar failures when engines are accidentally overfilled and loosen normally benign engine deposits. Unless you’re very young or your principal residence is a cave, none of this should be news.
Quote from: "Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364 on January 28, 2018, 03:48:21 PM
FWIW I remember in the 50's that dropping the oil pan and cleaning out the gunk was a normal and routine maintenance procedure.
I guess I don't feel so Bad now ::)........
Bobby
Quote from: "Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364 on January 28, 2018, 03:48:21 PM
FWIW I remember in the 50's that dropping the oil pan and cleaning out the gunk was a normal and routine maintenance procedure.
Greg Surfas
Plus the pulling of the rocker covers to adjust the tappets.
Bruce. >:D
I’ve tried using different oils in my 64 to try to get one of my noisy lifters to shut up. After using Mobil 1 0W40, Mobil 1 15W50 and now Valvoline 20W50 Race Oil with a bottle of Rislone Zinc Additive, the Valvoline race oil has quieted the lifter the longest.
On a cold nights, the ticking will sound bad but after a few minutes of warming up, the lifter noise will go away.
I was having an issue with fuel dilution in the oil from my fuel pump, so the 0W40 Mobil 1 would thin out too fast and make the lifter noisy in a short amount of time.
I think with certain older Cads, fuel dilution is a problem especially since they love to run rich and have high compression, so a full synthetic 5W30 might be too thin vs a 5W30 Dino oil. Always use a zinc additive, it doesn’t matter how great your oil choice may be, because the times I’ve changed the oil in my 64 and I decided not to put in Rislone, the lifter noise didn’t go away until I added a bottle of it into the crankcase.
The Valvoline race oil is a conventional oil, and the 20W50 is pretty thick with high levels of zinc already in it, but I haven’t had any issues with the engine as far noises or performance goes due to the heavier thicker oil.
Next time I might switch to a 5W40 Dino oil to lessen the stress on the oil pump and it’s possible failure, with a bottle of zinc and see how that turns out.
Quote from: "Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364 on January 28, 2018, 03:48:21 PM
FWIW I remember in the 50's that dropping the oil pan and cleaning out the gunk was a normal and routine maintenance procedure.
Greg Surfas
Been there, done that. Was my job as a teen ager with the family cars.
Quote from: gkhashem on January 28, 2018, 01:13:36 PM
Dan that is a great price. Is the weight OK?
I usually use 10W-30.
For the 1970 engine, the 15W-40 weight is acceptable for summer operating temperatures according to the owner's manual. I've never tried it in a 390. I used 10W-30 with a bottle of Cam Shield added. It would probably work just fine.
<- Was told by my mechanic (alky funny car crew) Lucas Hot Rod Oil has the highest amount of zinc
already mixed in. Somehow that's important when your car is hitting 3500hp and has a larger engine than
a top fuel or fuel funny car. What do I know, its what I'll use too.
Laurie!
For the older cars do any of you use Classic Car Motor Oil made by D-A Lubricants? supposed to have the proper levels of zinc and additives. Been using it in my '41.
Jim Miller
Couple points;
* -The early engines (pre '61) did not have oil filters or used partial filtration and may have used non-detergent oils and that's why you had to clean out the "pan". (A design based on cheap oil)
* - One of the SAE articles says that about 10% of the zinc is lost during the maintenance period. (that's what kills the catalytic convertor) So the engine only needs enough to coat the surfaces and allow for the loss. Anything extra is waste. There are other materials that do the same thing. It's not just simply going back to what they had in the old days. It's adapting to today. I know that's difficult for the average owner with all the marketing hype and reliance on word of mouth...
* - The T4 Rotella is formulated for diesel engines.
ps: We're only stewards, no mortal owns anything in the long run.
To verify the amount of zinc that is in your oil you can have your oil analyzed. I use Blackstone Laboratories. The report that they provide gives you the amount of zinc in your oil in parts per million.
John Scanlan
CLC #28099