Deletion of the Dog Lost post

[59-in-pieces]

Bruce,
It was an over kill to delete/lock all of the posts which fallowed the initial post by Laurie.
If you had an issue with a portion of her post, it seems to me that a private conversation was in order, because there was a single specific reference to you, and give her the opportunity to edit her post

I read the rest of the posts and they certainly were addressing the photo losses, and if anyone was specifically called out because of his job responsibilities, it was Stefan, by others than Laurie, and frankly likely should have been.

It may have been Clay - can't recall since the entire post was deleted/locked - who noted that perhaps the decision was made involving the Board, with following comments by other posters, both agreeing, and speculating on specific redactions - couldn't be response.
Then followed by an emphatic NO, the Board didn't do it - unless Eric is a Board member, how would he know - resulting in circling back to Stefan.

If your action was personal, then leave it personal - between you and Laurie, and make surgical deletions.
On the other hand, if deleting/locking the entire post is a "circle the wagons" move, to avoid honest discussion about the facts of the photo losses, then that - in my opinion, is an over-step of censorship.

I grew up in a family and later in a military environment which both held honesty in the highest regard.
Errors are to be avoided with careful consideration, but recognizing that they happen with the best of intentions, followed by personally owning up to it, and cleaning up your mess, is a proper course of action.
We call that, and should expect, an "open kimono" way of running any enterprise, and this forum(s).
There should not be, ducking out, or deflecting to other faceless, nameless folks, to avoid personal responsibility.

Respectfully Bruce, take your grievances out with a scalpel - with each who you think transgressed, and put away your hatchet.

Have fun,
Steve B.
 

[Carfreak]

I'm on the CLC National Board and don't recall any conversation at the Winter Board meeting last month regarding possible loss of photos when the forum would be moved to the new ISP.  Eric was there too. 

That being said there are also several CLC committees (Publications, Long Term Planning, Finance, etc) and the topic may have been discussed by one of those groups. 
. 

[Cape Cod Fleetwood]

Hey Steve,
Bruce locked my post, he didn't delete it. And with no inside information I believe this was HIS decision, not the Board's, since I fully exonerated them, who wouldn't given what was at stake. ANY type of surgical deletion of posts/locking of posts is not to be tolerated for personal reasons. That would be like using the DOJ to attack a political opponent in an election year.

Bruce is/was notorious for deleting posts, sending IMs to people who stray over the center line with subject matter here. "Keep it Cadillac" etc, and that makes sense to a point. All the more reason to have an "Off Topic" area here to post about things 'off topic'. Yeah the fur can fly, its fun and you can learn a lot about people.

Me posting a pic of The Ark was just an insurance policy. Others, very recently, have strayed off topic without retribution. One of the most recent was sadly lost in the recent purge of January. Whatever, who cares. There's bigger fish to fry.

What's concerning, and I'll say this to your face Bruce, was a placid condemnation of the American military and to those of us who wore the Uniform. Not sure of your service to the Australian military, but here in America active duty, veterans and the majority of the American public don't appreciate that. And we WILL jaw with each other about things political, but we respect each other's signing on the dotted line and agreeing to die on demand for America, we stay civil and polite. After we're done torching each other. 

And honestly this is something that should be discussed at the next Board meeting. Cadillac is an American car, made in America, this club and forum and based in America. And our foreign affiliates are critical to us, to ME. THEY love our American car, THEY fly the Cadillac flag in distant lands and honest to God I don't know how they cope with getting PARTS and still stay enthusiastic about this breed, SO MUCH RESPECT for them. I wish there was a way we could support them more, I hope we do when we can, I just can't imagine what they go through. My point: Administratively, especially with something as singularly important as this forum, I think its best to have it managed 100% American just to avoid comments like this in the future. There are enough forum babysitters/moderators who are American, and I'll volunteer now to babysit in your place if necessary.

And don't bother deleting this post/thread or my original post either Bruce, I've already screen shot them both for the Board.

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

Ladies and Gentlemen,

The Lost Dog post was not deleted, and it is still in place for all to read.

The Forum Rules begin with:-
This Message Forum is to be used to advance the purposes of the Cadillac & LaSalle Club, which are to develop, publish and exchange information pertaining to Cadillacs and LaSalles, to encourage the maintenance, preservation and restoration of Cadillacs and LaSalles, and to promote social fellowship among Club members.

The Forum Rules that I was referring to are:-
No disparaging remarks or personal attacks against fellow forum members, club members, club directors & officers, forum moderators, or any business will be tolerated.  Discussion threads containing such remarks will be removed and may result in the loss of the poster's privilege to post on the CLC Forums.
And:-
Posts containing political comment or content will be subject to removal of the whole post, including subsequent posts quoting the original issue.

It must be remembered that the Moderators are tasked to Moderate the Forum with the Forum Rules in mind, that are there for all to see.   The Moderators are a group of volunteers, from all walks of life, and seven who have access, but, as not all are online at any one time, with some being asleep whilst others are awake, some actions need to be made, at any time as the Forum runs 24 hours a day.

The Forum Rules are one of the broadest rules I have seen on any Forum, and are there to discuss Cadillacs and LaSalles.   Which is what is written at the beginning of the Forum Rules.

This Forum is not a place like Facebook or any other open discussion group where anything goes.

Bruce.

[59-in-pieces]

Bruce,

I don't disagree with the sentiment of "disparaging remarks" against those folks described in your recitation.

What is unclear is a definition, or a description of what constitutes, "disparaging remarks".
Such a determination falls into the realm of - In the eye of the beholder.

In a post, I did many years ago, I commented on Cadillac's involvement in the war effort in supplying engines for tanks and aircraft.
I was at the time an avid reader of Cadillac literature, and the war effort contributions were fascinating to me.
And, they often found their way into magazine Cadillac article with hand painted examples of tanks and planes.

I posted a picture of a bomber which purportedly used the Cadillac engines.
On the side of the bomber, below the cockpit, was a painted picture of a "pin-up girl".
A great many bombers had such pictures - including the B29 Enola Gay, which dropped an atomic bomb on Japan, prompting the end to the war.
I was chastised and threatened to remove the post because of the inappropriate picture of a girl in a bathing suite.
I refused, and would again today.

I also learned - at least in the case of an Australian member that I know well - was threatened, by a single reviewer, who could not arbitrarily and singularly act against a member posting without the concurrence of 2 other reviewers.
I don't know if that is still true today, but I think if a reviewer feels something is a miss, which refers to him personally, that should warrants consulting with his peers before locking a post, which might be appropriate to confirm if the comment is in fact a "disparaging remark", and then sanctions the actions of the aggrieved reviewer.

Have fun,
Steve B.

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

unless Eric is a Board member, how would he know
 

General CLC members are permitted to sit in on board meetings which I've been doing for the past ten years, give or take. At the most recent Winter Board Meeting last month, I was one of eight or so regular members who were also present. 

[badpoints]

I was about to join the CLC, to be able to post after May 1. Even though I have too many things that I pay for already and can't afford with three kids in college. I will probably just have to make due with the other Cadillac forum. It is sad because there is a lot of good info on this forum and I like to contribute with a photo or two when I can. 

[Carfreak]

General CLC members are permitted to sit in on board meetings which I've been doing for the past ten years, give or take. At the most recent Winter Board Meeting last month, I was one of eight or so regular members who were also present. 

Even at Summer Board Meetings which are held during the GNs, attendance by CLC non-Board members is usually always nominal.   

This year at Gettysburg, on Thursday 7:30 to 9:30 pm there will be a CLC Town Hall Meeting hosted by CLC Officers (President, VP, Treasurer, etc).  There are a lot of comments and opinions HERE about how the Club should be run, questions and suggestions.  When push comes to shove, it will be interesting to see how many will use the opportunity to attend and share their thoughts with the CLC Officers and Directors.  Not all of them read the Forum regularly.

Thursday night will be a town-hall type gathering with the CLC Executive Board. This is an excellent opportunity to learn more about the Club and share your ideas.

Several years ago I was not happy with a few Club policies and was pretty vocal about it. Someone discretely asked me to 'back off' so instead I stepped up and added my name to the Election Ballot, it's that simple.   Unfortunately its too late to be added for this year's election but mark your calendars for Fall 2025 to nominate yourself, get your name on the ballot and potentially become part of the Club governing structure.   

[59-in-pieces]

Carfreak,

Having the ability of a regular member to attend a Board meeting as an observer is a good thing.
However, I've never attended a Board meeting, because of the expense and inconvenience of their locations - both winter or summer events.

Perhaps making them available by way of a ZOOM meeting process, or some such technology, would be very helpful in making the membership feel more a part of the Club as  we view the discussions and guidance that the Board considers.

However, since not all Board members read the Forum(s), it seems to me that events of late need to be discussed in full session at there next meeting.
Those issues are:
1.The mishap with the lost photos, and how to avoid disruptions in the future.
The authority and decision to lock a recent post - Lost Dog.

I applaud you for recognizing there are those - many -who want to maintain the status quo, but it should not require becoming a member of the Board to be heard or bring about change, where needed.

I am not preaching insurrection - or a 60's mantra of "Power to the People" - or fear the intimidation of the "Brown Shirts", just an open and honest environment of open kimono communications.
If the King has no clothes, don't fear telling him.

Have fun,
Steve B.

[Cape Cod Fleetwood]

I was about to join the CLC, to be able to post after May 1. Even though I have too many things that I pay for already and can't afford with three kids in college. I will probably just have to make due with the other Cadillac forum. It is sad because there is a lot of good info on this forum and I like to contribute with a photo or two when I can. 

DUDE! Its 25 bucks, that's enough gas to get The Ark from here to the shop ie across town.
In the words our great national orator, "c'mon man".

[Cape Cod Fleetwood]

Carfreak,

Having the ability of a regular member to attend a Board meeting as an observer is a good thing.
However, I've never attended a Board meeting, because of the expense and inconvenience of their locations - both winter or summer events.

Perhaps making them available by way of a ZOOM meeting process, or some such technology, would be very helpful in making the membership feel more a part of the Club as  we view the discussions and guidance that the Board considers.

However, since not all Board members read the Forum(s), it seems to me that events of late need to be discussed in full session at there next meeting.
Those issues are:
1.The mishap with the lost photos, and how to avoid disruptions in the future.
The authority and decision to lock a recent post - Lost Dog.

I applaud you for recognizing there are those - many -who want to maintain the status quo, but it should not require becoming a member of the Board to be heard or bring about change, where needed.

I am not preaching insurrection - or a 60's mantra of "Power to the People" - or fear the intimidation of the "Brown Shirts", just an open and honest environment of open kimono communications.
If the King has no clothes, don't fear telling him.

Have fun,
Steve B.

Bro, I think making the Board meetings a Zoom thing for regular CLC MEMBERS is a great idea.... Pash? The danger here is the meeting going on forever... maybe limit it to the legendary "20 questions" and who ever signs up first is 'in'? What do I know...

[Bryan J Moran]

I believe my post regarding Cornerstone was deleted. I can't find it and I've looked back quite a bit.

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

I believe my post regarding Cornerstone was deleted. I can't find it and I've looked back quite a bit.

As mentioned in sticky thread above- the last few weeks of forum activity was lost in order to salvage the previously deleted photos.

https://forums.cadillaclasalle.club/index.php?topic=174083.0

[gkhashem]

As mentioned in sticky thread above- the last few weeks of forum activity was lost in order to salvage the previously deleted photos.

https://forums.cadillaclasalle.club/index.php?topic=174083.0

But the point is the old photos were restored so why was that procedure not taken in the first place so to avoid all of what happened? (lost photos)

Well it was either one of these two things on the initial try at migrating the forum

1- the webmaster did not know how to do it, which in this case I say find out.
2- the webmaster did and took a short cut for whatever reason that I will leave to others to speculate on.

Either way I think the point Laurie was making that either one is unacceptable. I agree with her on this.

My point was it should have been correct the first time and mistakes happen but either way own up to it and fix it. Excuses never were acceptable in the past for this sort of thing but apologizing and fixing it would go a long way to sooth reasonable angry people.

[Cape Cod Fleetwood]

I agree with her on this.

Yeah that cool breeze you feel is hell starting to freeze over when George agrees with me. LMAO!!!   LOL!!!
Nothing but love for you George, and everyone else actually.
Stefan "did" post a mia culpa on another thread, we're back up and running, it seems all the old photos were saved.
The fire has been put out and I'm sure management will conduct an autopsy to be sure it doesn't happen again.

Now, all eyes on the Nationals short term and migrating/adding human assets for the Club long term.   

[badpoints]

DUDE! Its 25 bucks, that's enough gas to get The Ark from here to the shop ie across town.
In the words our great national orator, "c'mon man".

I obviously could afford 25 bucks but I also don't have thousands to throw at my car like you do. My restoration budget is near zero. I scrape together what ever I can just to buy sandpaper and masking tape and paint. In the last year and a half I have spent about $900 and probably almost 800 hrs on the car.
Next is the timing chain, I will use money from my birthday next week. I wish that I could just write a check and have it done. I probably will end up joining because it is worth $25.

[David King (kz78hy)]

Webmaster performance should be a topic at the next board meeting and I suspect it already is.  It might not be public, but this event did not go unnoticed.

Gnashing about it now is pointless, but you can reach out to your local region CLC delegate (every region has one or can have) and express their desire to have this subject be on the next board meeting agenda.  If you are going to the Grand National, you can do so in person.

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

But the point is the old photos were restored so why was that procedure not taken in the first place so to avoid all of what happened? (lost photos)

Well it was either one of these two things on the initial try at migrating the forum

1- the webmaster did not know how to do it, which in this case I say find out.
2- the webmaster did and took a short cut for whatever reason that I will leave to others to speculate on.

Either way I think the point Laurie was making that either one is unacceptable. I agree with her on this.

My point was it should have been correct the first time and mistakes happen but either way own up to it and fix it. Excuses never were acceptable in the past for this sort of thing but apologizing and fixing it would go a long way to sooth reasonable angry people.

Quote someone else then- I was responding to Bryan's specific question only.

As to the rest, I have always been resolved that all/any material posted here wouldn't necessarily be preserved indefinitely, nor was it ever guaranteed let alone charged for. Show me the contract you signed on the dotted line where you paid $x per month/year for it.

Many people work tirelessly behind the scenes to keep things running smoothly with little or no remuneration for their efforts. When something should go wrong- whether by fault/mistake of their own or not, the answer in my opinion is not to start sounding off, let alone for something you got for free in the first place. Once the problem had been rectified, further proselytizing the matter is unnecessary, pointless and uncalled for. Just keep it up and soon nobody will want to assume these responsibilities.

[D. Mailan]

I obviously could afford 25 bucks but I also don't have thousands to throw at my car like you do. My restoration budget is near zero. I scrape together what ever I can just to buy sandpaper and masking tape and paint. In the last year and a half I have spent about $900 and probably almost 800 hrs on the car.
Next is the timing chain, I will use money from my birthday next week. I wish that I could just write a check and have it done. I probably will end up joining because it is worth $25.

This is my point exactly.

In the recently lost posts, I was called a freeloader by another member. As someone who is attending college right now, I would best put that money towards my Cadillac and my education. I asked questions here but I did what I could to help others with the knowledge I've gotten with being born and raised with 50's and 60's Cadillacs. With the help I have received here, I have done my best to reciprocate that when I could. 

I said in a lost post, The fact is, the $1,200 jetaway deluxe tranny rebuild my 59 got 5 years ago now costs $4,500 for the same transmission on my 58. Or the carter carb rebuild on my 56 that cost $150 three years ago now cost me $350 for my 60 a few weeks ago?? This hobby is becoming more and more unaffordable every day. I would hate to be restoring a classic car today. It would most likely cost double the value of the car. I know more people trying to sell their old car because they can't afford it than those who are looking for one.

Now here we are, we are going to be charged to help and be helped with our cars. I though this was about helping fellow Cadillac owners who took pride in the automobiles we all enjoy.

Once again, my argument is not about bickering for some $25. That is meaningless. It is irrelevant twaddle. My argument is the repercussions of having a membership threshold to post. If I had to pay when I first had a question to ask on here, I would have not bothered. Not for one minute. I would have carried on my merry way. Not everyone here is doing a concourse restoration and is in desperate need to be on the forums. Some people have little questions that they are curious about. That to me, made the forums interesting. I happily asked questions and happily contributed to other's discussions. Yes, the information on these forums are worth more than $25 a year. There is no argument there. Those howling "BUT IF YOU DONT HAVE $25 YOU CANT AFFORD A CADILLAC", that escapes the point. Why would anyone want to disenfranchise any prospective or a new Cadillac owner by discouraging them from getting info and help by making them become a member to ask for help??

When a friend of mine asks me for help on his car (or anything for that matter), I don't charge him. Because I know, the next day I might need their help. You will most definitely lose a great deal of traffic and interest on the forum. That's all I am saying. I am not angry or agitated that this is what the board decided. I am merely offering my perspective for consideration. 

As I said in one of my lost posts, I love capitalism, but not everything should be a pay to play situation.

Derick

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

but not everything should be a pay to play situation.

Not everything is. But when faced with costs that are not only real, but increasing, sometimes changes have to be made- disagreeable as they may be. It's no different why a Big Mac meal is $13.00 when it was $8.00 not so long ago.

And by the way, the old car hobby is not only not in a state of decline, but booming. Where is your data?  Every metric I've seen shows this- from quantity of classic car transactions, number of sites/webpages devoted the the hobby, the number of parts and other associated vendors/restoration services plus auction prices that are higher than ever with sell-through rates that are equally impressive. BaT alone has a sell-through rate of 97.7% with most of the selling prices in the stratosphere.