Wheres The Ark?

[Bryan J Moran]

  Hi Bryan, obviously you have never visited Laurie's Facebook page, your entire statement is completely wrong concerning her. The language is probably from her life long career in the Navy.

No but cmon. Others have stated she was outrageous on social media. I don't know how to find her or most anyone on social media so I have to base that on what others have stated. 

I guess she has her supporters and her (not) supporters.  She is direct, which is fine. But per other members, and profanity laced since deleted responses, she was not able to discuss in a respectful manner. 

I have been there. I was in a major fight for control of the BCA about 7 years ago. My camp lost, control of the BCA is in the hands of the pro judging crowd and those of us that had a different path have dropped out. I still count a lot of friends from the Buick world. 

I was not happy with Cornerstone, voiced it here I believe in a respectful but forceful manner, without f bombs and personal attacks.

Navy? Whatever. My family has a lot of servicemen including my brother (Marines) and Cousin (Navy 23 years retired),Dad etc and none of them drop profanity laced attacks on people. 

[V63]

I for the life of me cannot get over the objections to paying $25 to become an e-member.

Can these posters complaining about that give it up? $25? YIKES.... if that pushes you into bankruptcy it's over for you. Sorry to speak some truth. I get it, times are tough and here's a bulletin for everyone out there they will be getting tougher. Its not a matter of if, but when.

If you really love your collector car, $25 is nothing in today's new normal of money printing. You make an old fashioned  budget adjustment if you are truly that destitute. Give up going out to eat just once a year or do not buy a drink or two with a meal when eating out.

The acrobatics being done to complain about the $25 membership are illogical and ridiculous. I suspect some people just want free stuff and try to get as much free stuff as they can, or are just plain cheap. Without dues payers all of this goes away. Freeloaders beware nothings is free, someone else is paying for it.

I hesitate this  'member only' policy with regard to the forum will not net the revenue stream or furtherance of the club as anticipated in the big picture.  Majority of people that find a Cadillac in their life are not 'clubbie' people. But their forum input as a 'moocher' adds flavor, value and interest to themselves as well as the paid club members. It should be encouraged and appreciated!

That said,  I do understand the complication of scammers and abusers. There is always the option of cutting ones  nose in spite of the face?

Today 'everybody' has a membership, from television, news, magazines, apps, credit scores, internet security, product warrantees, not to mention each car club make and type, venue... but hey, if each is only $25 year...what's the problem?

Forever the optimist ... I can add, I hope I am wrong!

[Highwayman68]

Non-members will still be able to visit the Forum, they just won't be able to post. 

How will us regular members know that they are here to personally invite them to join or sponsor their first year?

[Carfreak]

For several years, anybody registering to the CLC Forum should be seeing a notification suggesting they consider joining the CLC.  Everyone using the Forum should be aware of the option. 

Starting in May, it sounds like the process will be modified to include a REQUIRED section to include CLC Membership Number.  Previously including this information was requested. 

Moderators / Administrators will review the Membership Request and confirm they are a CLC member. All CLC members have access to the Online Membership Directory through the website (separate from Forum). So for example if you see someone lambasting the decision to only allow members to post here, you can easily check to see if they are a CLC member or not, usually they are not. 

If someone is not a CLC member and they attempt to Register here, they will probably see information How to Join and so forth.  If the non-member reads the Forums and find they want to post and participate further, it should not be difficult for them to figure out how to do so. 

You can sponsor whoever you want although I generally sponsor friends who may already own a Cadillac and not be a member or someone who has an interest in owning one.

[wrefakis]

I was looking forward to her display at the GN
she is a classic
Needed a carry permit to travel to show
Had a "mid year code 93" paint finish
drive it like you stole it (except 30$ later it seems to be less than roadworthy),indeed,she has broken down more with her car serviced by "WORLD FAMOUS SHOP" than my last 50 years of 1970 ownership

But...
I was really looking to engage her wrath about the guy with the perfect mint 70 Fleetwood that he never drives,the one she called the "statue"
bring her back,she generates views,and in a world of keyboard tough guys,bombast,bluster,and empty threats,she is more the norm than the exception

[MultipleCaddies]

Dan, you asked the question and I will respond as honestly as I can. I think we have a real potential for growth if we play our cards right ... and it has nothing to do with 1 person in 12,000 online forum members that had to be temporarily suspended for breaking the rules.

Consider the following:
Print memberships for all clubs, and print subscriptions from everything from newspapers to magazines to other periodicals continue to fall. In fact due to printing, shipping and publications costs many magazines are going all digital. Last month out of the blue I received a note on the front of my This Old House Magazine stating this was the last print issue and that I needed to roll over my account to an online only account ... which I did. 

- While the CLC's overall membership #'s have gradually declined, we are seeing a steady increase in e-memberships ... in fact just passing the 1000 mark. I still like my print copy of the Self-Starter and some will never go the e-membership only route, but we will all need to make that choice of whether or not it is worth it to pay that increasing price to print and ship a Self-Starter.  I do think price for printing and shipping will only go up and if our club remains solvent our prices will have to go up.. and that is where we have to make that choice.

- Finally, There are hundreds of free Facebook, Instagram, X forums out there where anyone can just sign up and post away and interact... to a certain level. I am a member of several dozen Facebook groups, but you know what... they don't have Grand Nationals, They don't have National Driving Tours, They don't have Regions and Chapters where we can physically come together and show off our cars. They don't get a Self-Starter Magazine, electronically or otherwise. They don't have an International Directory with thousands of other members that we can contact for help, or just chit chat over the phone about our cars, or over a beer at the next region meet-up. There is so much more to being a CLC member than just a member of one of these social media groups and that is what we need to sell to all potential members and let them know about our benefits:  benefits.cadillaclasalleclub.org

I think our future is very bright ... if we let the thousands of potential members know, we have a club of real people, that do real things, and they can be part of our great club for only $25.

So, in 10 years, to be as honest as I can, I think we can easily have 10,000 to 20,000 or more online members. Realistically, I am not sure about print memberships. I hope it holds steady, but a lot of that depends on cost and member attitudes.

I'm really not trying to be an agitator here, but this post just misses the mark. Four paragraphs and a lot of words, all to basically say "Give us $25 and you can be part of the club". I'm sorry, that's just not a successful business model or successful growth model for forums or car clubs. People have to feel like they're getting something for their money. Word are not something. For the guy who just wants to post here and doesn't go to Cadillac specific car shows, they get nothing for their $25.

I think some of you forget that a lot of people just enjoy owning a classic car and enjoy driving it, without needing to be part of a club. "It's only $25" is not a reason to spend money if you don't get any tangible benefit from it.

[MultipleCaddies]

All car clubs are niche groups, and there is always only going to be a certain smaller % of the general population that want to be a car club member.  My last report shows the CLC has 5,762 members, with E-memberships up to 1,026. With that in mind the Studebaker club has almost 10,000 members. Studebaker have not been around since 1963, or over 60 years!.  I don't expect millions of people to want to sign up to the CLC, but I know there is still a large untapped demographic that would surely pay $25 for the benefits our club affords.

I will give you an example of where we can expand --> Chapters. They are not confined to geographical constraints, and thru the connectivity of the internet we can come together instantly electronically. This is one reason I started the 63/64 Cadillac Chapter. which is currently up to about 400 members from 40 states, and 15 countries... not bragging ... well OK just a little. :-)

I really do think we have big potential here and have been encouraged by the new 59/60 Chapter. (Check out their website at  19591960cadillacs.com) There are other Chapters just waiting to happen. As someone else recently pointed out to me, pull up your Directory and see how many Escalades are owned by members. An Escalade Chapter is waiting to happen, and begging for someone to step up and take the lead. (As an owner of a 2002 and 2013 EXT, I will proudly sign up as a Charter Member).

The bottom line is we are quibbling over the loss of a couple thousand print membership-level members. The potential is huge if we look beyond that and consider the other avenues for growth. Back to Studebaker with its 9000+ members, the CLC has a big advantage in that the Cadillac Brand has been around from 1902 to 2024, and Yes I see people putting down the newer Cadillacs, but there are folks like me that are just as proud to still be driving around in their 2002 EXT as their 1964 Coupe de Ville ... well almost!

You have to ask yourself this question: With so many more Cadillacs on the road and so many more people who own and drive them, why do you only have a fraction of the membership vs a much smaller niche marque?

Ever watched Shark Tank? The second people start talking about "The market for X product is X billions every year, and If I could just capture 1% of that.." they instantly get shut down by the sharks. Why? Because that's not a business model. In your case here, you have to ask what this club/forum is doing wrong vs. the much smaller niche marque that is eating your lunch. Until you figure that out and solve that problem, you shouldn't even be thinking about putting up more barriers to entry.

You also have to ask, are you in it just for revenue behind membership? Or are you really in it for the love of the cars? I'm not aware of anyone who pays to join car clubs just to fatten the wallets of the leaders of it.

[MultipleCaddies]

Non-members will still be able to visit the Forum, they just won't be able to post. 

Things like that will ensure that they stay non-members, I assure you.

[MultipleCaddies]

I for the life of me cannot get over the objections to paying $25 to become an e-member.

Can these posters complaining about that give it up? $25? YIKES.... if that pushes you into bankruptcy it's over for you. Sorry to speak some truth. I get it, times are tough and here's a bulletin for everyone out there they will be getting tougher. Its not a matter of if, but when.

If you really love your collector car, $25 is nothing in today's new normal of money printing. You make an old fashioned  budget adjustment if you are truly that destitute. Give up going out to eat just once a year or do not buy a drink or two with a meal when eating out.

The acrobatics being done to complain about the $25 membership are illogical and ridiculous. I suspect some people just want free stuff and try to get as much free stuff as they can, or are just plain cheap. Without dues payers all of this goes away. Freeloaders beware nothings is free, someone else is paying for it.

It astonishes me that people so completely fail to understand that it is not about the money. Normally I see comments like this come from people who, when selling something and asking too much for it, automatically assume that everyone is broke when they aren't willing to pay too much for something. That is a foolish assumption in most cases, as it very obviously is here. This total lack of perception and self-awareness is part of the reason why so many old timers don't understand why young folks are getting into other things and other cars.

[MultipleCaddies]

It is just that everything has some sort of fee now and it is more of the point of it than the cost. Most content on the internet was free for many years.
I work with a guy who is very well off and he is jumping through hoops to get rid of his cable bill, even though it is insignificant to him cost wise. He is making his own H.D. antenna.
After a while things add up. Pay for your golf, camping, swimming pool, BMW and whatever forum. Just like the multiple streaming services you need to watch sports and shows.   

Most discussion forums on the internet are still free. Basically all of the big successful ones are. Some people here have it COMPLETELY backwards. The reality is that the BIGGER you are with more participants, the more you can get away with charging for things here and there because everyone wants to participate. The smaller you are, the more that will just drive even more people away. This has been repeated over and over and over again on the internet. Many once-popular forums are now dying or long since dead because greed crept in and people tried to monetize them, only for them to fail completely.

Here's a suggestion: For the folks who believe in it that much and say "it's only $25", why not voluntarily raise your bill to $50? $100? "Anybody who will pay $50 for a cab will surely pay $75." Right?? Step up and put your own money where your mouth is. If it's only money and you have it to spend, spend it! That will keep the club alive and the forums open for everyone. Right?

[MultipleCaddies]

I hesitate this  'member only' policy with regard to the forum will not net the revenue stream or furtherance of the club as anticipated in the big picture.  Majority of people that find a Cadillac in their life are not 'clubbie' people. But their forum input as a 'moocher' adds flavor, value and interest to themselves as well as the paid club members. It should be encouraged and appreciated!

That said,  I do understand the complication of scammers and abusers. There is always the option of cutting ones  nose in spite of the face?

Today 'everybody' has a membership, from television, news, magazines, apps, credit scores, internet security, product warrantees, not to mention each car club make and type, venue... but hey, if each is only $25 year...what's the problem?

Forever the optimist ... I can add, I hope I am wrong!

If I had to pay $25 for every forum I posted on even once a year, I would be spending close to a thousand dollars a year every year. And what about all the dog park visits? Trips to the beach? Hikes in the forest? Let's charge $25 for everything and eventually you'll need a six figure salary just to pay for all the things that used to be free and should be free. That'll teach all those freeloading youngans!

[druby]

If the regions were to stop promoting membership, would the National survive ? It's the regions that really do the "grunt" work promoting the club. Remember, in order to join a region you must join the National club.  ! I often wonder how many National members are not a member of a region, if you can afford to be a National member why can't they made to join their local region ? Regions by far have more activities for members then what the National has to offer. What do they offer of than the Self Starter, Driving Tour, Grand National event, yes the Self Starter is a wealth of info to most , but everything I mentioned above cost an arm and a leg to attend. Almost $250.00 to attend  the GN with a car and that's not including gas, hotel, tours or food. Add all this up and you're close to $3,000 !

[gkhashem]

If the regions were to stop promoting membership, would the National survive ? It's the regions that really do the "grunt" work promoting the club. Remember, in order to join a region you must join the National club.  ! I often wonder how many National members are not a member of a region, if you can afford to be a National member why can't they made to join their local region ? Regions by far have more activities for members then what the National has to offer. What do they offer of than the Self Starter, Driving Tour, Grand National event, yes the Self Starter is a wealth of info to most , but everything I mentioned above cost an arm and a leg to attend. Almost $250.00 to attend  the GN with a car and that's not including gas, hotel, tours or food. Add all this up and you're close to $3,000 !

I was in the New England Region for 4-5 years and all there 99% of the activities were between Boston and Providence RI. This is over 120 miles from me and I often was not able to meet other region members or go to get togethers easily. So I eventually gave that regional membership up. That region is really not a New England Region but a south of Boston or Providence regional club.

So if you make me join that I quit. Many of us in Northern New England have no regional options. It's one thing to go to a GN once a year another is make multiple 2-3 hour one way trips to regional events.

[gkhashem]

It is just that everything has some sort of fee now and it is more of the point of it than the cost. Most content on the internet was free for many years.
I work with a guy who is very well off and he is jumping through hoops to get rid of his cable bill, even though it is insignificant to him cost wise. He is making his own H.D. antenna.
After a while things add up. Pay for your golf, camping, swimming pool, BMW and whatever forum. Just like the multiple streaming services you need to watch sports and shows. 

That was my point, make a decision and pay for what you feel is worth it. You cannot have it all but you should not expect members who pay to shoulder the cost for your entertainment. If we continue on the same path and costs go up should my dues double to keep this forum free for big spenders like the well off guy you work with.

Also a member posting here made a good point, seems like those objecting are not CLC members.

The principal of the matter to me I am tired of paying for others who can afford to pay. That is the point to me. It's like those people that say "It's not about the money" well I hold onto my wallet around those people. Everyone cares about the money to some extent.

[gkhashem]

If I had to pay $25 for every forum I posted on even once a year, I would be spending close to a thousand dollars a year every year. And what about all the dog park visits? Trips to the beach? Hikes in the forest? Let's charge $25 for everything and eventually you'll need a six figure salary just to pay for all the things that used to be free and should be free. That'll teach all those freeloading youngans!

You assume a forum is free to run, the dog park is free to maintain. Wrong someone is paying for it and you would be called a free rider in economic jargon. I guess government grants are free too. If you need to spend $1000 to visit forums yearly you must have too much free time on your hands. Again this seems a silly argument. You are active in almost 40 forums?

Here is a definition of a free rider problem.


The free rider problem is an issue in economics. It is considered an example of a market failure. That is, it is an inefficient distribution of goods or services that occurs when some individuals are allowed to consume more than their fair share of the shared resource or pay less than their fair share of the costs.

Free riding prevents the production and consumption of goods and services through conventional free-market methods. To the free rider, there is little incentive to contribute to a collective resource since they can enjoy its benefits even if they don't. As a consequence, the producer of the resource cannot be sufficiently compensated. The shared resource must be subsidized in some other way, or it will not be created.

So it is OK for members to subsidize you and all the other "free riders". I remember a time when people, even poor people would refuse charity out of pride. Today it is the norm to expect something for free even if you are wealthy.

[V63]

Free riding occurs when some individuals are allowed to consume more than their fair share of the shared resource or pay less than their fair share of the costs

Therefore,

Free riding owners of Cadillacs (plural) are are paying less than their fair share than those with none or one cadillac? 🤦🏻�♂️🙄

[MultipleCaddies]

You assume a forum is free to run, the dog park is free to maintain. Wrong someone is paying for it and you would be called a free rider in economic jargon. I guess government grants are free too. If you need to spend $1000 to visit forums yearly you must have too much free time on your hands. Again this seems a silly argument. You are active in almost 40 forums?

Here is a definition of a free rider problem.


The free rider problem is an issue in economics. It is considered an example of a market failure. That is, it is an inefficient distribution of goods or services that occurs when some individuals are allowed to consume more than their fair share of the shared resource or pay less than their fair share of the costs.

Free riding prevents the production and consumption of goods and services through conventional free-market methods. To the free rider, there is little incentive to contribute to a collective resource since they can enjoy its benefits even if they don't. As a consequence, the producer of the resource cannot be sufficiently compensated. The shared resource must be subsidized in some other way, or it will not be created.

So it is OK for members to subsidize you and all the other "free riders". I remember a time when people, even poor people would refuse charity out of pride. Today it is the norm to expect something for free even if you are wealthy.

Couple big fallacies here, I'll happily point them out for you. For one, how I choose to spend my time, where and why is neither your business, nor relevant to this forum. "You must have too much free time on your hands" is nothing more than a personal attack intended to get an emotional response, prompted in large part because you know you can't rely on the strength of whatever other arguments you intend to make.

Speaking of.. this free rider philosophy you refer to is not relevant to internet forums in any way. The defacto modus operandi of almost all internet forums is that they are free to use by anyone and everyone, and supported/maintained financially via donations made by members, ad revenue or related products/merchandise sold. Some forums use a paid subscription model to access certain parts of the forum. Almost every forum on the internet manages to keep itself going using a combination of some or all of these. This forum is no exception to that. The model only fails when a forum is grotesquely mismanaged, or when the popularity of the forum dwindles due to a general lack of interest in the content. Many forums exist that are many times larger than this one, with much greater traffic, thus higher hosting bills, etc., yet they make if work via the well established models I listed above. None that I am aware of require payment in order to view or participate at all.

Craigslist and wikipedia are two large examples of websites that thrive on a small percentage of their user base paying the bills. Why isn't this free rider problem killing them? Craigslist reached a billion dollars in revenue just a handful of years ago. A website where the large majority of users pay nothing to use it, but who's traffic is absolutely necessary to the continued popularity of the site.

I am on at least 5-6 different shooting forums, and a couple of them require paid subscription in order to view or use the classified sections. I don't have a big problem with this, but it's still far from ideal. It cuts down on the quick resellers who are there just to profit on ammo sales when prices go up, but not otherwise participate in any discussions. I suggested that a better method would be to restrict usage of the classifieds to members above a certain post count, with a sufficient reputation score associated (as some forums keep track of). That would reward members who actively participate in the discussion forums, which is the whole reason they exist in the first place. But, most people fall into the monetization trap and can't resist the opportunity when it presents itself. That is almost certainly exactly what is going on here. Understand, my position is that free speech and the ability to have free conversations on this or any other topic is NOT something that should be monetized or regulated in any way. Doing so goes against the very principle of free speech in the first place.

And before you compare this forum to your home living room, I'll point out the fallacy of that absurd argument. Discussion forums exist to facilitate public speech, and they are in no way comparable to your private living room in your private home. This is an area where most people have gotten this wrong in the internet era, and thankfully a few people here and there have started speaking up about it, but not nearly enough.

Bottom line: internet forums do not work like fast food restaurants. Never have, never will. If you don't learn to understand and accept that reality, you will continue to watch as participation and membership declines, unwilling to admit that the ship is sinking and unwilling to do anything about it. You will not be successful in convincing the majority of people to pay to participate in forums like this. They will all just die off and everything will move to facebook, tiktok, instagram, etc. That result is absolutely guaranteed with moves like this. Thankfully most forums aren't foolish enough to implement such asinine policies.. yet.

[gkhashem]

Free riding occurs when some individuals are allowed to consume more than their fair share of the shared resource or pay less than their fair share of the costs

Therefore,

Free riding owners of Cadillacs (plural) are are paying less than their fair share than those with none or one cadillac? 🤦🏻�♂️🙄

Another silly argument whether I have one or ten cars I or anyone who owns many cars
does not add to the cost of running the forum. Illogical try.

[David King (kz78hy)]

There are benefits to the national club.  For $25 you get access to the virtual magazine, membership lists, membership directory, tech section with contacts and the now the forum.

It does cost the club to offer this forum, so I've got no issue with making it a requirement now.  We will lose some posters and readers, gain a few members, and get rid of some whiners.  All in all, it's a win for me.

[Lexi]

I don't know if the proposed Forum changes will increase membership or not, but I make these presumptions:

1) It costs money to run this Forum.
2) Dues paying members have been instrumental in paying for it, while others use it for free, often with valuable input.
3) How one spends their discretionary income is a personal matter.
4) I don't know if the CLC is being mismanaged.
5) Free stuff on the internet has historically provided expectations of free service to net users and has generated unfair comparisons with other models.
6) Nothing stays the same and collecting/hobby trends & models change.

I trust the CLC has a back up plan should the one they are about to implement fails. Clay/Lexi