Hi folks!
I have a 1968 Grecian white Caddy DeVille convertible and I'm trying for a while to get more information about the engine's history, without disassembling it. I know it's a donor engine and not authetic to the car but I'm curious to know what year it has it's origin. The possible range is 1970-1974. From the carb I don't get much information because it's a donor one either (7029232, which means a Rochester carb for a 1969 49-State Caddy with auto transmission). Today I crawled under the hood and shot a couple of pictures of the rear end of the block just behind the oil pressure switch (the red section of Michael Stamps picture in thread of june 17th 2007 (1968 Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham VIN question/decoding body name plate).
The engine block casting number is 1485200
The head casting numbers are 1497902
The engine serial casting number is 660192082 (see picture in detail)
Does anyone have, know or able to retreive the exact year of the engine (for example with a list of serial numbers)?
Thank you for your help!
Geert-Jan
The 5200 block was 70-76 same for both 500's and 472's. Only slight mostly internal changes to take the longer stroke of the 500 and some slight changes in some of the oil system otherwise the same as the 68&9's.
The 902 heads were 71-73. Small chamber (76cc) with smog rail.
The only major difference in the heads (at least for fairly stock applications) is if they are small or large chamber. 74-76 had a larger chamber (120cc) that made things a bit better for the low compression motors that were mandated by GM in 71. The first few years they just used pistons with a huge dish to lower the compression. Im guessing in 74 they gave up trying to meet emissions and did the slight redesign on the head. With the small chambers you can do either low or high comp. The large chambers are pretty much designed for low comp. The 68-70's were high comp.
Pistons and crank were the difference between the 500 & 472. The 500 had about a 1/4 longer stroke than the 472 (and 425). Measuring the stroke or looking at the casting number on the crank is the only way to tell for sure.
The major change in power over the years was other than the comp drop in 71 was the cams.
The later engines used a partial VIN on the engine. Looking at my 71 shop manual it gives a sample VIN of 683471Q100001 . 6 is Cadillac, 8347 is Series and Model, 1 is the model year, Q is the Plant and 100001 is the Broadcast Number. Working backwards from yours I get Broadcast number of 192082. That leaves 660. I am assuming the 0 is really a Q for the plant. That leaves us with a 6 for the model year. So going off this I'm thinking it is a 76 engine and would have to be a 500 engine at that. Maybe someone with a later shop manual can confirm this.
Stampie
I just noticed the 902 heads part. It is possible to rebuild a late block with early heads if you use the proper pistions. You might want to do the rod down the sparkplug hole to find out if it is a 472 or 500.
Stampie
Ok I just found my 73 manual and forgot about the R & S in the VIN. The last nine of the sample VIN is R3Q100001 with R being 472 engine vs. S being 500 engine. 3 is the year and Q is plant still. So ... I'm lost with our 660 or 66Q unless someone has a 76 manual to compare and see if it changed after they dropped the 472s.
Stampie
Guess who just found their 76 Manual. It gives last 9 of the sample VIN as S6Q100001. The S being 500 engine since they only were made that year. So ... something doesn't fit here. My brain is tired.
Stampie
Just to compare here the total sample VIN given for a 70 Coupe De Ville is J0100001 with J being sales code for Coupe De Ville 0 being the year and 100001 being the broadcast number.
Stampie
PS "The Vehicle Identification Number, less the sales code letter, is also located on the rear upper portion of the cylinder block behind the intake manifold, and on the left side of the transmission" from the 70 manual.
PSS You can thank me later for totally confusing your issue even more.
Unless you are sure of the proper #'s on the block and heads, you could be dealing with a piecework engine. This may not be bad, but damn frustrating when you go out parts hunting.
Fins
Hey guys,
Omg what did I unleash! ;) ;) ;)
About the numbers: I'm absolutely positive they are correct. From the caddyshack http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Pit/9364/guide/Engineid.html (http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Pit/9364/guide/Engineid.html) site from Wayne Carroll I know that the 68 through 70 engines don't have a VIN-number. From 71 on the engines had the 61 (62, etc) codes with Q (Detroit) or E (Linden NJ). And yes Michael, in my 68 shop manual also the famous "where-you-can-find-the-VIN-number-on-the-block" line is mentioned but the only numbers I can find are the engine block casting number and the mysterious serial number.
It's not a 75 or a 76 engine because they are electronic fuel injected (E.F.I.) and mine isn't. See http://www.butlers-a1.com/caddim.htm (http://www.butlers-a1.com/caddim.htm)
Last year I wrote the previous owner in Mission Hills (I got the California DMV registration card when I bought the DeVille) a letter with some curious to know questions (mostly history) but no answer.... :-[
To convince you guys the head number is right another picture enclosed. And who's causing all the "trouble" (The Gran' Ol' Lady does, I don't ;D)...
Best regards,
Geert-Jan
"It's not a 75 or a 76 engine because they are electronic fuel injected (E.F.I.) and mine isn't. See http://www.butlers-a1.com/caddim.htm"
Wrong answer. These engines are both...carbureted and TBI injected. EFI wasn't introduced until 1977 on the 425 in the Fleetwood.
Fins
Quote from: Geert-Jan on January 04, 2008, 01:27:03 PM
The engine block casting number is 1485200
The head casting numbers are 1497902
For sure sounds like a 71-73 engine.
The serial number as you can tell is a real mess. I've never personally seen it on an engine.
Really need to check the pistons. Do you have access to a bore scope?
You can check the stroke too to see if it's a 500. Just use a coat hanger in the #1 spark plug hole. Use the timing mar on the rank pulley to find TDC and BDC(180*= half a turn).
Do you have a picture of the intake? does it have an EGR valve (or a place for it)? The choke changed between 70 and 72, and that may help. Of course either or both could have been changed (like the carb).
I Think it looks like 66Q, but is that on the block?
Looks like a cast in number not stamped. Is that right?
Quote from: Big Fins on January 04, 2008, 05:35:52 PM
This may not be bad, but damn frustrating when you go out parts hunting.
Depends on what parts your after.
If it has 902 heads, the there's no real difference in them and the 250 and 950 heads. All 3 would interchange and even be fine with one of each, unless the A.I.R. system is functional (usually isn't) then you need to not use the 950 heads (which are rare, one year only) or disconnect the A.I.R. and block hole in the old head.
If you need a piston, you know which one, since the head will be off to get the piston out. Only affect the compression, but you don't want one 10:1 piston and seven 8.5:1 pistons (or vice versa). A mix of 10 and 10.5:1 pistons would not be as bad, though still not good.
Nothing else is different.
Quote from: Geert-Jan on January 04, 2008, 06:44:30 PM
From 71 on the engines had the 61 (62, etc) codes with Q (Detroit) or E (Linden NJ). And yes Michael, in my 68 shop manual also the famous "where-you-can-find-the-VIN-number-on-the-block" line is mentioned but the only numbers I can find are the engine block casting number and the mysterious serial number.
Sounds like a '76 block then.
But those are 76cc heads from a '71-'73.
Now I'd really suggest getting a look into the cylinder with a bore scope. See what pistons you have.
It may be a real cobbled together job; a 76 block, a 472 crank (68-74) and 71-73 pistons.
Could even be a 500 (need the crank casting number or the stroke measured to know).
I know it's not a 76 short block and 76cc heads. You wouldn't be able to find gas that wouldn't know so bad you break the Pistons.
It's be about 13:1 compression!
EFI WAS STANDARD ON SEVILLE 75, 76, 77, 78, 79....... OPTIONAL ON OTHER MODELS LATE 75, 76, 77, 78, 79.
GREG
Quote from: Big Fins on January 04, 2008, 06:50:19 PM
"It's not a 75 or a 76 engine because they are electronic fuel injected (E.F.I.) and mine isn't. See http://www.butlers-a1.com/caddim.htm"
Wrong answer. These engines are both...carbureted and TBI injected. EFI wasn't introduced until 1977 on the 425 in the Fleetwood
Hi Big Fins,
Hhmmmm... What do you mean with "these engines"? Engines from both years 1975 and 1976? Or the 472 and 500 cid? And can you tell Mr. Butler that his sceme is not correct and Steve Preston that he doesn't have an 1976 Eldo convertible with EFI? http://home.mindspring.com/~76ldo/id8.html (http://home.mindspring.com/~76ldo/id8.html) >:D. Or is it more complicated? What I meant to say is that my Caddy-engine is just carburated, so no electronic fuel metering (injection) like throttle body (TBI) or EFI or whatsoever. In fact TBI is also an EFI-system... (but now I'm getting off subject)
I know from medical science that TBI also stands for Traumatic Brain Injury.... 8) (this is really off-subject)
Best regards and always willing to learn,
Geert-Jan
Okay, I took a good zoom-in look on the 3.2 MB picture and I can see indeed a difference between the first "0" (more square) and the second "0" (more oval). The first is probably a Q (with the dash) and the second a zero. See zoom-in pictures enclosed.
Does this help, that the serial number stamped in (not casted as I stated before) on the engine is 66Q192082?
Best regards,
Geert-Jan
Port (not TBI) EFI was an option on the 500's in 75 and 76, and on all 425's in 77. You could only get a carb on a 78 Eldo, but EFI was optional on all the other 425's in 78 and 79
Correct and most 75 and 76 came with a carb.
Stampie
PS - If the better half lets me I'll go clean up the pad on the engine mentioned before. I was told it's a 76 and haven't seen anything to point elsewhere.
Quote from: Geert-Jan on January 04, 2008, 08:48:34 PM
Okay, I took a good zoom-in look on the 3.2 MB picture and I can see indeed a difference between the first "0" (more square) and the second "0" (more oval). The first is probably a Q (with the dash) and the second a zero. See zoom-in pictures enclosed.
Does this help, that the serial number stamped in (not casted as I stated before) on the engine is 66Q192082?
Best regards,
Geert-Jan
01-04-08
Geert-JAN
You wstate in your post that the number "66Q192082" is on the engine. Where?? I(f you can get to it, I suggest removing more paint, and posting the number(s) again. Good luck,JIM
This is a copy of my post that he refers to and the picture.
QuoteHere is the picture of a later block. The yellow is the block part number. The red is where the serial number should be. As you can see the block must be very clean to even get a hint of the number. I rubbed that one with my finger and still cannot see it.
Stampie
Quote from: homeonprunehill on January 04, 2008, 10:54:50 PM
You wstate in your post that the number "66Q192082" is on the engine. Where?? I(f you can get to it, I suggest removing more paint, and posting the number(s) again. Good luck,JIM
Jim, in the red section of Michael's post above....
For your convenience a have the original picture enclosed.
Of any help?
Ok I went out and cleaned up my pad to see what it says. As you can see it is 66Q813718. So ... I know this engine had later heads and I was told it was a 76. I never saw the actual car it came from but at least we have two engine with the 66Q.
Stampie
I just looked at the other pictures I took and I think it's actually 66Q213718.
Stampie
Okay, good work Stampie! Thanks to your better half ;) Does it mean it's an 76 engine? And can you tell me something about the cilinders?
Tomorrow (it's now almost 08:00 pm here) I'm gonna try the metal pin in the spark plug hole trick.
I keep posted!
Best regards,
GJ
I'll check tomorrow but if I remember correctly this one was pretty straight up stock. With your early heads and what appears to be the same block beginning numbers as mine I'll assume you have a mix of parts. As Thomas pointed out you wouldn't be liking it if it was a stock bottom end with early heads. We could get lucky and have someone with a known original engine from 76 post their numbers.
Stampie
I need to eat some crow.
I was bored today (took the wife top a craft store), so Having seen the spots for the engine SN, I grabbed a rag and cleaned the spat.
I'll be damned, the number was there on my '70. I know I'd looked before and never found it, but I was looking in the wrong place.
Matches my VIN w/o the letter for the body style (J = Coupe DeVille).
I mis read the last digit, but after checking the VIN, I looked again and it is probably correct.
Wasn't able to get a picture as I didn't have the camera and it was raining when we got home.
It's dark now (and still showers) but I'll try in the morning.
But it is on my 1970 car, contrary to the previously mention page saying it's not there. Just like the FSM says, the VIN minus the initial letter. This car was built the 4th week of March, 1970 so it's pretty late in the model year, but it is there.
Quote from: Geert-Jan on January 05, 2008, 01:53:22 PM
And can you tell me something about the cilinders?
What do you mean? The block is the same from 1970 -1976.
What matters is the pistons, and making sure they match the heads and crank.
QuoteTomorrow (it's now almost 08:00 pm here) I'm gonna try the metal pin in the spark plug hole trick.
Did you get chance to measure the stroke then?
That'll tell if it's a 472 or a 500. But you'll have to see the pistons to know what the compression is.
Well, you could try running 89 or 87 octane (U.S. R+M/2 specs) in it an see if it knock/pings. Would recommend against that though.
Too easy to damage something, and not worth the effort at this point.
If pump gas doesn't knock, it not a 74-76 flat top piston, so it's at least a piston for your 76cc heads. If you ever rebuild it you'll buy pistons for the compression you want, and the current pistons won't matter (just the 472 or 500 info).
Quote from: STDog on January 05, 2008, 08:06:34 PM
Wasn't able to get a picture as I didn't have the camera and it was raining when we got home.
It's dark now (and still showers) but I'll try in the morning.
Got some pics. Hard to get a good angle but these two look pretty good.
VIN is J0271892.
All except the J is there (the last 2 is hard to read)
Okay, I just got out of my garage.
To get the stroke was very tough to do: parking break, shift in neutral, unplug all the sparks, hydraulicly raised the front end, crawled under the car and pulling like hell at the two belts going from the power steering pump pulley to the crank pulley. Then go underneath the car and look if the wooden rod in cilinder # 1 has raised or lowered. Mark the level and repeat the above about 30 times (you wouldn't miss the TDC or the BDC). Checked and dubble checked. The maximum lenght top-bottom was between 10.3 and 10.4 cm, which is about 4.06 inch.
So, my engine turned out to be a 472.... Another mystery solved.
What do I have now?
Serial number: 66Q192082 => 76 block
Heads: 1497902 => 71-73 heads (76 cc cylinders????)
Stroke: 4.06 inch => 472 crank (could be 68-74).
The only mystery are still the pistons....
Best regards,
GJ
Quote from: Geert-Jan on January 06, 2008, 03:58:52 PM
To get the stroke was very tough to do:
The maximum lenght top-bottom was between 10.3 and 10.4 cm, which is about 4.06 inch.
Definitely a job you want a helper for...
I'd have cheated and use the timing mark for TDC, and a riller through the center to find 180
o away, and lined it up with the timing pointer for BDC.
QuoteSerial number: 66Q192082 => 76 block
Heads: 1497902 => 71-73 heads (76 cc cylinders????)
Stroke: 4.06 inch => 472 crank (could be 68-74).
Sounds right. Oh, that's 76cc chambers :)
QuoteThe only mystery are still the pistons....
What octane fuel do you use? What have you tried?
Do you know if the rating is ROM, MON or the average (like in the US)?
Could give some clues as 10.5:1 ('68 & '69) and 10.0:1 ('70) pistons won't run on US grades of 87 or 89 octane.
(might get 89 to work at 10:1 if the timing is pulled way back, but I couldn't do it in Mississippi summer heat).
Quote from: STDog on January 06, 2008, 05:43:38 PMI'd have cheated and use the timing mark for TDC, and a riller through the center to find 180o away, and lined it up with the timing pointer for BDC.
The timing mark is on the front side of the crank pulley (right?) and it was quite dark under the car and laying on your back (head to the rear) you're facing the back of the crank pulley. Although it was hard pulling (and have grazes on my arm now) this was the easiest way.
QuoteWhat octane fuel do you use? What have you tried?
Do you know if the rating is RON, MON or the average (like in the US)?
Could give some clues as 10.5:1 ('68 & '69) and 10.0:1 ('70) pistons won't run on US grades of 87 or 89 octane.
(might get 89 to work at 10:1 if the timing is pulled way back, but I couldn't do it in Mississippi summer heat).
In Europe we have a different system in rating octane. To clear the differences I copied some info from Wikipedia:
"
The most common type of octane rating worldwide is the Research Octane Number (RON). RON is determined by running the fuel in a test engine with a variable compression ratio under controlled conditions, and comparing these results with those for mixtures of isooctane and n-heptane.
There is another type of octane rating, called Motor Octane Number (MON) or the aviation lean octane rating, which is a better measure of how the fuel behaves when under load. MON testing uses a similar test engine to that used in RON testing, but with a preheated fuel mixture, a higher engine speed, and variable ignition timing to further stress the fuel's knock resistance. Depending on the composition of the fuel, the MON of a modern gasoline will be about 8 to 10 points lower than the RON. Normally fuel specifications require both a minimum RON and a minimum MON.
In most countries (including all of Europe and Australia) the "headline" octane that would be shown on the pump is the RON, but in the United States, Canada and some other countries the headline number is the average of the RON and the MON, sometimes called the Anti-Knock Index (AKI), Road Octane Number (RdON), Pump Octane Number (PON), or (R+M)/2. Because of the 8 to 10 point difference noted above, this means that the octane in the United States will be about 4 to 5 points lower than the same fuel elsewhere: 87 octane fuel, the "regular" gasoline in the US and Canada, would be 91-92 in Europe. However most European pumps deliver 95 (RON) as "regular", equivalent to 90-91 US (R+M)/2, and even deliver 98 (RON) or 100 (RON).
It is possible for a fuel to have a RON greater than 100, because isooctane is not the most knock-resistant substance available. Racing fuels, straight ethanol, AvGas and liquified petroleum gas (LPG) typically have octane ratings of 110 or significantly higher - ethanol's RON is 129 (MON 102, AKI 116)."In the Netherlands the regular gasoline at the pump is delivered at 95 octane (RON), so that will be equivalent to 90-91 US octane (R+M/2 or AKI) and most pumps deliver also 98 octane (RON), equivalent to 93-94 US octane (R+M/2 or AKI). We pay also a price for it. The gasoline prices are now, due to the high oil prices and all the war going on in the Middle East, at their highest in history: â,¬ 1.48 a liter. This is equivalent to (hold yourself tight now)
$ 8.29 a gallon...... :( :( :( :(
So that's why I have a liquified petroleum gas (LPG) installation built in in the Caddy when I bought her. Extra evaporator on the carb, a pressure valve and some extra hoses under the hood and an extra tank for LPG of about 21 gallon in the trunk. That's it. The price of LPG is now in wintertime also high (because of a higher butane:propane rate) and cost about â,¬ 0.61 a liter, in summertime about â,¬ 0.45. This is equivalent to $ 3.42 a gallon in wintertime and $ 2.52 in summertime. So think twice before you start complaining about raising gasoline prices over there.... ;)
Although I have to admit the performance is slightly better on gasoline I drive mostly on LPG and about 10 at every 200 miles on gasoline.
So besides me driving on LPG most of the time no chance for me to test a lower octane rated fuel....
Best regards,
GJ
Quote from: Geert-Jan on January 07, 2008, 08:16:19 AM
In the Netherlands the regular gasoline at the pump is delivered at 95 octane (RON), so that will be equivalent to 90-91 US octane (R+M/2 or AKI) and most pumps deliver also 98 octane (RON), equivalent to 93-94 US octane (R+M/2 or AKI).
That rules out that idea. You don't even have access to US regular unleaded. (90-92 RON).
The compression of 76cc heads and flat top pistons would be fine on LPG, and maybe do alright on the 98 RON (not sure there)
It'll take a look at the pistons to know more. That means either pull the head or a bore scope, and I don't think it's worth the effort/expense at this point.
FYI, bore scopes look sort of like this.
(https://forums.cadillaclasalle.club/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eastwoodco.com%2Fimages%2Fus%2F%2Flocal%2Fproducts%2Fdetail%2Fp20470.jpg&hash=1e4ea41d6bbd93328fdf3135a1df7b5316e07e5b)
But they aren't cheap.
$230 http://www.eastwoodco.com/jump.jsp?itemID=12446&itemType=PRODUCT (http://www.eastwoodco.com/jump.jsp?itemID=12446&itemType=PRODUCT)
$382 http://www.usatoolsinc.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=17233 (http://www.usatoolsinc.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=17233)
QuoteThis is equivalent to $ 3.42 a gallon in wintertime and $ 2.52 in summertime.
That's not much mope than I pay for LPG actually (just paid $2.55/gal), and in some areas it's higher than you pay.
I guess it doesn't have all the added taxes that gasoline does.
You won't see me complaining about gasoline prices. I know how we compare with other countries as well as other ways of looking at the price (like % of income to drive 1000 miles) which shows how cheap it really is.
I agree it's not the effort worth at this point. The person who did the piecework on my engine did a very good job because it's running very smooth, absolutely no complaining at all.
Maybe I can ask the garage where I have my Caddy maintained (for the yearly tag and in case of big trouble) if they have a bore scope and will take a peak for me the next time.
Best regards,
GJ