it is possible to remove the oil pan when the engien is mounted on the car ?
in fact i have a big problem. when the oil is hot engine make a big noise (Clac clac clac . like connecting rod bearing used)
i would like to change the connecting rod bearing while the engine is on the car.
it's possible or not ?
thank you ;)
Most times it is possible to remove the Sump whilst the engine is in place, BUT:
If I remember correctly, the engine mounts have to be undone off the chassis, and the engine raised up a bit, and pieces of timber inserted between the mount and the chassis receiver.
To do this, you have to remove the Fan Shroud, to give the fan clearance, and loosten the Engine Pipe to Exhaust Manifold to allow movement of the joints there, if you have Dual Exhausts, or if you have a Cross-over pipe with a Single Exhaust, that might have to be removed.
Remove Starter Motor, and Flywheel cover, and sometimes it is also necessary to lower the Steering Drag Link, and don't forget to remove the Dip Stick and disconnect the Battery..
There may be other things, but I don't have that specific Manual with me.
Bruce. >:D
Chilton says (see image)
I bet Haynes says exactly the same thing ;)
i thick if you have something rapping like that you will have to do a lot more than just change 1 bearing
All other issues aside, if in fact the noise is from the bottom end (Rods or main bearings) you would not really want to change bearings without "cleaning-up" the crankshaft (machining). How many miles does the engine have on it?, Have you pulled the rocker arm covers to see if there is anything loose? has the timing chain/gears set been replaced?
An accurate diagnosis should come before repairs.
Greg Surfas
I have an engine doing that, put in new rod bearings [of course miked the journals too] and still had noise. Pulled pan again, pulled rod caps one at a time, tapped pistons up, and found a loose wrist pin on one. Everything except wrist pins was rebuilt on this engine, so off comes intake and 1 head to fix. BLAHH!!
01-17-08
Crys59, Number uno. you didn't say what year, so, I will assume it is an 1986, and the answer is YES, you may have to turn the engine A little in order to get the pan off, but, it will come off. The pistons must be down for the pan to come off, otherwise the pan will hang-up on the "balance-weights" of the "crank".
Good Luck,JIM P.S. I know, that why Jack-asses are not sent to school, No body likes a "Wise a-s.
Quote from: Crys59 on January 17, 2008, 03:25:52 AM
it is possible to remove the oil pan when the engien is mounted on the car ?
in fact i have a big problem. when the oil is hot engine make a big noise (Clac clac clac . like connecting rod bearing used)
i would like to change the connecting rod bearing while the engine is on the car.
it's possible or not ?
thank you ;)
[/quote
01-17-08
Chry59, sorry,I didn't see the 1977 in the title of the message, until I went-back to re-reads the message then I remenbered something else I wanted to say. Sounds like you have pagged trhis one correctly. But for others. In the "old" days, to tell the difference between a Rod Bearing and a Main Bearing. When it first starts to knock. The ROD will Knock when there is no load on the engine. A MAIN will knock when the engine is under a load. Bruce Reynolds is correct. If it doesn't mite-out to specs you will be wasting your time&money to band-aid the problem. Let the readers know what it Mites-out to be, we might be able to advise.
Good Luck,JIM
Thanks to all.
I made a mistake because there was the old oil in the engine (car stopped since 7 years)
Noise emerged after a long drive by rolling quickly (very quickly = 90miles/h during 125miles).
The engine has 83000miles.
NOW:
Noise is always present (a hot idle, when it accelerated). I think is one rod bearing dead.
Is that this model of the gear chain is covered with plastic (like 1970 model)?
G'day Christian,
I trust you chastised yourself very severely for not changing the oil before you thrashed it?
I can imagine what happened was that you checked the oil level via the dipstick, and all was okay?
But, after driving for so long, any contaminants that were in the oil evaporated away, and that didn't leave much fluid stuff above the Sludge in the bottom of the Sump.
Plus, there is the great possibility that the Head Gaskets had lost their stickicity from sitting for so long, and possibly more damage.
Now, I would be recommending you pull the motor, as I think it will have to be stripped down completely, as there will be more damage than just a Big End gone.
If you have "Spun a Bearing", you will possibly be in need of a new Crankshaft and Connecting Rod or a crank journal re-grind, with Con Rod end requiring Re-sizing.
Unused engines really NEED to be re-run-in quietly, carefully, and with lots of checking and oil and filter changing, and not immediately taken for a drive down the Autobahn.
Bruce. >:D
PS. I am sure the '77 motors used the Plastic covered teeth on the Cam Gear.
In fact, the seller told me that the car was travelling frequently ..
But after (too late) he told me it had not rolled past 7 years >:D
Quote from: Crys59 on January 18, 2008, 06:03:32 AM
In fact, the seller told me that the car was travelling frequently ..
But after (too late) he told me it had not rolled past 7 years >:D
Now, where have I heard that same quote before?
Maybe the seller supplied the "Concrete" Warranty? Once it leaves the concrete driveway, the warranty expires.
Bruce. >:D
PS. Hope the damage isn't too bad.
This type of old car has no guarantee.
I had to make reparation now.
While I don't know the '77 chassis, I was able to change the rod and main bearing on my '70 CDV with the engine in the car. (wrong size installed. don't ask >:( )
I just followed the FSM (and Chiltons) method for removing the oil pan. Did not need to loosen the mounts or raise the engine.
One thing I need when getting the pan out, after everything is loose, was to raise the frame/body a bit to get more clearance between the flexplate and the steering linkage. The steering stays put with the wheels, and the engine goes up with the frame. Just a few inched, but it was needed. It Also lets the exhaust drop lower too, which is also helpful.
Now, as to whether changing the bearings will be enough, I cannot say. Could be too far gone already, and/or too much other damage.
By the 77 shop manual:
-remove struts to radiator cover
-remove upper fan shroud (they mention drilling out 6 rivets)
-loosen belts and remove crank pully
-raise car on hoist
-drain oil
-remove 'y' pipe from manifolds and cat converter
-remove through bolts from mounts
-remove starter
-remove transmission lower cover
-use block of wood under crank hub to raise to gain clearance (watch clearance with throttle linkage and near heat/ac box)
thank you for your help.
I do not understand how to disassemble the engine supports. It must unscrew the large main screw? Or small mounting screws?
The long Bolt at the bottom, where the Mounting sits on the Chassis.
Bruce. >:D
i d'ont undestnad how to remove the fan protection in plastic ?
Big problem, look that:
(https://forums.cadillaclasalle.club/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fnsm01.casimages.com%2Fimg%2F2008%2F01%2F23%2F%2F08012310024699581638888.jpg&hash=e4e1d015abdb7112c1807be4b34559db65e7805a) (http://www.casimages.com)
all bearing is dead.. and the crankshaft too..... :-[
The bearing in this picture is not the cause of the knock.
Now, that is one UGLY picture.
But, I have seen worse. A lot worse.
Bruce. >:D
Do you think I can put new bearings without machined the crankshaft ?
the cranshaft have a lot of Stripes :-[
(https://forums.cadillaclasalle.club/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fnsm01.casimages.com%2Fimg%2F2008%2F01%2F24%2F%2F08012407184499581639726.jpg&hash=47f3a91ea3bb078f3d4dd2f159a10fe38d7c4521) (http://www.casimages.com)
G'day Christian,
That is a very easy question it answer, and that is "YES"
BUT There is no guarantee that it will run for very long, or be quiet.
Honestly, with a Crank as marked as that, there has to be a really good reason for it, and looking at the bearing shell, there has been a lot of very dirty oil flowing through there, and enough of it to internally grind away at the Crank Journal, and the Bearing.
If you measured it up, you might find that the Crank will need grinding at a minimum of .010", and possible .020" to get it back to size, plus, there is no guarantee that that bearing was the one that was making all the noise.
From what you initially described, I wouldn't have thought that that bearing was the culprit, as it still has bearing material on the sides, and only worn down to the Copper Backing in the centre, where the Oil Gallery in the Crankshaft in supplying that bearing.
What is the top half of the shell like? It is the top half that is subjected to the harshest treatment, plus, what are the Main Bearing Shells like?
You have to remember that when the engine is operating, the Bearings don't actually come into contact with the Crankshaft Journals, but are kept from touching by the film of oil that is surrounding the Journal. If it touched, the bearing surfaces would immediately be destroyed.
The Knocking you are hearing is probably the bearings actually hitting the journals as the Clearance is too great to allow the oil to stay in there and do its' job of cushioning and keeping the parts from self destructing.
Installing new bearings, they would have to be of sufficient size to clear the largest diameter of the Journal, and then, where the Journal is worn away, would be too loose, and soon you would be suffering knocking, again.
I hate to say it, but I wouldn't be recommending anything but pulling the engine, and stripping it, and you will find that you will be up for a total Crank Re-grind, if it isn't actually bent, New Big Ends and Mains, and Murphy's Law will also see you boring the Cylinders, replacing the Pistons, and Rings with Oversize ones, plus once the Heads are off, anything is possible.
Once one starts opening something up, it is like opening up a "can-o-worms"
In my experience, when rebuilding a motor that has bad bearings, all one uses from the original motor is the Sump, Block, Crankshaft, Connecting Rods, Head Castings, and whatever fastenings and accessories are there. Nothing else is re-used. The Pistons won't fit, the Oil Pump will be worn out, the Cam and Lifters will be worn, the Valves and Springs will probably need replacing, etc, etc.
Plus, when it is rebuilt, don't forget to have the Starter Motor rebuilt, as the increased compression will probable start to wear that out as well.
Bruce. >:D
PS. But, it mightn't actually be as bad as I have just written. You might have been lucky to catch it before too much damage was done to the top end.
thank you Bruce, you are rigth ;)
i will remove the engine...
Th diametre of the old crankshft is 2.446 >:( (for 2.5 when is new) bad news.
man are you sure you are right on the size of a new journal ? i ask because if you are already 34 thousands of an inch under and the crank needs ground you might not find bearings and would be better off getting another crank
Bill, that's correct for the stock rod journal. Maybe he measured wrong?
Crys50. where did you measure the journal? The center or the ends? Try all three location.
Bruce, luckily the 472 family tends to do OK on the upper end. He'll probably be OK with just honing the cylinders then new rings and bearings. The cam and lifters is probably shot though since it looks like something in the oil took out the crank.
I can not separate a motor from thetranny because the screw are inaccessible.
Are you that you can leave the engine alone ?
I think it's easier to get the two together no ?
for the crankshaft, i'm looking for a new, but in france is Not Found.
and the shipping USA TO france is very expensive :-\
Quote from: Crys59 on January 27, 2008, 04:48:41 PM
I can not separate a motor from thetranny because the screw are inaccessible.
Are you that you can leave the engine alone ?
I think it's easier to get the two together no ?
for the crankshaft, i'm looking for a new, but in france is Not Found.
and the shipping USA TO france is very expensive :-\
G'day Christian,
Separating the Transmission from the engine should be really easy in a Rear Wheel Drive Chassis.
What bolts can't you access?
And as far as shipping costs go, shipping to Australia is always expensive. You are lucky you are living in France, and closer to USA.
Bruce. >:D
The screws that secure the trans on the engine.
Especially at the top >:(
Quote from: Crys59 on January 28, 2008, 01:26:35 AM
The screws that secure the trans on the engine.
Especially at the top >:(
Ah ha, those dastardly unreachable ones!
Okay, what you do is don't remove the bottom four, with the Transmission held up bu a jack, remove the Transmission Crossmember at the Chassis, and lower the transmission down a fair amount.
This allows you to access the top bolts by using a couple of long Extensions Bars (Socket Sets usually only come with one), [I am talking about bars at least 18" long, or multiple of shorter ones], and with a Universal and 9/16" AF Socket, you will be able to get to the bolt heads.
You are actually using the Ratchet at the rear of the Transmission and the long extensions go up over the top of the Trans Case, to the Bolts at the Bellhousing.
Once that is done, and they are out, jack the transmission back up, and re-attach the crossmember. This will hold the back of the trans in place, and then you can undo the Torque Converter bolts, Starter Motor bolts and the rest of the Bellhousing Bolts.
When "slipping" the engine forward to release from the Transmission, you will need to raise the engine slightly to clear the Engine Mount support, and simply put a jack under the front of the trans to take the weight.
Installation is the reverse procedure.
Bruce. >:D
Bruce's method works for sure on other setups (I have never tried it on a RWD cad). One note (not needed in this case) is to remove the distributor if its in the back. I got lucky on my first one and only broke the cap off.
I'm sure it'll work, though I've never need to lower the transmission.
On both the '70 and '72 RWD Cadillacs I could reach the top bolts as Bruce described without lowering the trans.
One note I'd add is to use a CV/impact style universal on the socket.
Like these (https://forums.cadillaclasalle.club/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mytoolstore.com%2Fsk%2F4003.jpg&hash=6fdc633b82ad776e6bde84fc7caf7a1909f02393)
not these (https://forums.cadillaclasalle.club/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.hardwareandtools.com%2FP%2F7126998.jpg&hash=8c97831a614d42586a35df2d9754fa1378463cc4) (https://forums.cadillaclasalle.club/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mytoolstore.com%2Fsk%2F45190.jpg&hash=bd2736ad2f0428c71f4bbf77625d0114070e3051)
The CV style doesn't bind as easily and has a larger working angle.
Thank you for your help ;)
one question, what is the number of screw betwen the flex plate and the torque converter ?
Quote from: Crys59 on January 28, 2008, 05:31:38 PM
Thank you for your help ;)
one question, what is the number of screw betwen the flex plate and the torque converter ?
Ummmmmm....... From memory, I think there are three.
But, once you have removed sufficient, for the Torque Converter to spin freely, then there are no more.
Bruce. >:D
that's ok, the engine is out of car.
i removed the crankshaft.
he is dead.
now i'am looking for a new crankshaft (std size or machined), but this part is not available in france.
have you this part ? ;)
http://www.mtscadparts.com/ try here although i have not dealt with them since al betker sold the business but they were great then and probably still are
Two Ebay sellers might ship to France.
Maddog Racing/ Fast Engine parts has long had a 425 crank with bearings listed.
Stan Mizell in Florida them for $65.00 w/o bearings on Ebay as well.
Ebay is too slow on dial-up to find links for you. I'll look Monday and update.
You believe that a crankshaft can be mailed by USPS (because by UPS or fedex it's very expensive)?
Mailed via Surface freight, or a Forwarding Agent.
Heavy stuff is going back and forward, all over the world, all the time.
I refuse to use UPS as they are way TOO expensive.
I know that USPS doesn't send anything via Surface Post to Australia, and when they did,m the limit was 40 Pounds, but the suppliers of these heavy parts should have contacts with shippers.
Bruce. >:D
PS. If your Crank is a Forged Steel piece, then the re-builders can build up the journals with metal spraying, or welding, and simply re-machine it back to size.
the 425 crank is definaitly cast iron .but then i have seen welders use iron rod in an industrial setting
Is there any rod bearing at 0.06 ?
if yes i can machined my old crankshaft ;D
Quote from: bill henry on February 03, 2008, 01:12:08 PM
the 425 crank is definaitly cast iron .but then i have seen welders use iron rod in an industrial setting
Thanks for that Bill,
The last Cadillac Crank I dealt with was the one in my '60 390, and that was Forged Steel.
Seems like Cadillac finally went to the cheaper Cast Cranks to cut costs.
Bruce. >:D
they were made out of a better grade known as nodular iron like some pontiacs and a few chevys but still cast iron none the less . it was a difference in the shape of the carbon in the iron, balls instead of flakes making it more ductile
Quote from: Crys59 on February 03, 2008, 02:57:51 PM
Is there any rod bearing at 0.06 ?
if yes i can machined my old crankshaft ;D
do you know if the 0.06 exist ? please
I believe that 0.040" is about the largest undersize replacement bearing shells that are available.
If it has to be ground to .060, then I would be very suspect as to the strength of the finished shaft.
If it has been subject to any hard treatment at the factory, then .060 will virtually remove any that might be left.
Bruce. >:D
One other note to help you i your search, the 472, 425, and 368 crankshafts can be interchanged. You may want to have the rotating assemble balanced if you use a 472 crank since the pistons are heavier, but it will work if you can find one.
I see Stan has three listing right now
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130090204692 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130090204692)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130090205167 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130090205167)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130080550353 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130080550353)
He lists the weight at 74lbs. Contact him to see if he'll ship to France.
Maddog has this one
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220193643395 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220193643395)
They do state they ship outside the US too. The shipping calculator shows UPS to France at $425.
They may have other options though.
One more option I see this morning
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7999358614 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7999358614)
thank you for your help because the barrier langae is a big difficulty for me
are you sure this part http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7999358614 is the same than the 425ci ( year1977)
if yes it's a good news for me, what is the good bearing size for this remanufactured crankshaft (0.01?)
thank you for your reply
Quote from: Crys59 on February 04, 2008, 03:00:57 PM
are you sure 368is the same than the 425ci ( year1977)
if yes it's a good news for me, what is the good bearing size for this remanufactured crankshaft (0.01?)
Yes. The 368 and 425 crank shafts will interchange, as will the 472 crankshafts.
If you compare the first link and the last link you'll see that have the same casting number, #142 listed.
Any bearing size is fine. The less under size the better, since it leaves more room to regrind later, but you won't see any difference in use. Usually, the larger the grind, the more damage was done and needed repair, but again, I'd have no problem running a 30 or 40 under crankshaft.
Note that the Maddog Racing listing includes the bearings in the price, while the other don't include the bearings (but they sell them). Note too that the bearings in the last listing (Allstate Engine Parts) will fit the 425 (and 472 and 500) even though the listing only mention the 368. Check to see what brand they are first though, as the part number doesn't match Clevite or SealedPower numbers.
Did Stan ever get you a quote on shipping? (I saw your question on the first one I linked).
You might do better to get all the parts you cn from one vendor too. won't cost as much for one shipment as it will for several shipments.
it's seem's to me kanter sells rod bearing in 0.06" and my crankshaft is 2.443 ...
is that possible to machine? no ?
but i have other ^problem with this crankshaft and connecting rod.
the axial play is very important. question: is it the conecting rod used or the crankshaft used?
thank you again for your help :)
Quote from: Crys59 on February 05, 2008, 12:04:20 PM
it's seem's to me kanter sells rod bearing in 0.06" and my crankshaft is 2.443 ...
is that possible to machine? no ?
What do the main journals measure? If they cannot be cleaned up to an available size the rods won't matter.
I know MTS(www.500cid.com) (http://www.500cid.com) was working on 0.060 rod bearings, but I don't think anybody had bigger mains planned in the near term.
Quotethe axial play is very important. question: is it the connecting rod used or the crankshaft used?
Not sure what you mean here. Fore to aft play in the crankshaft?
That's controlled by the thrust bearing, which is part of the center main bearing on this engine family.
axial play is "connecting rod side clearance " in the repair manual ;)
bad news , kanter tell me "0.06 not available" :-[
You know or find rod bearing in 0.06" please ?
Quote from: Crys59 on February 05, 2008, 01:59:28 PM
axial play is "connecting rod side clearance " in the repair manual ;)
Ahh, That's usually adjusted by narrowing the connecting rods.
I suspect because it's easier to sand/grind the flat side of the rod that it is to widen the round journal.
But It might help maintaining the strength of the crankshaft.
in fact the clearance is to high :-[
Quote from: Crys59 on February 05, 2008, 02:26:27 PM
in fact the clearance is to high :-[
How high?
The high performance people recommend higher clearance than the factory spec.
30-35 thousandths (0.030-0.035 inches).
on my engine clearance is 0.039.
do You know if it'spossible to find rod bearing in 0.06" please ?
Quote from: Crys59 on February 05, 2008, 03:17:33 PM
on my engine clearance is 0.039.
do You know if it'spossible to find rod bearing in 0.06" please ?
Check with MTS (http://www.500cid.com), Torque Inc. (http://www.cadillachighperformance.com/) or Cad Co. (http://www.cad500parts.com)
I know TI and MTS were expecting to have them by now.
MTS tell me "0.06 is not available, only 0.03" :-[
G'day Christian,
Correct Side Clearance on Connecting Rods, and other areas where Oil Lubrication is required, is extremely important.
Too much Side Clearance, and the oil will simply squeeze out through the gap, and fail to do its' intended job of keeping the metallic surfaces form touching each other, and wearing away.
Too little Side Clearance, and the oil cannot get out fast enough, leading to the oil being retained, heating up due to friction, and eventually "Locking" up the moving parts, and that usually results in a spun bearing, which both wrecks the Journal, and the Connecting Rod.
Too heavy an oil can do similar thing, and is what could have happened in your engine to cause the problem in the first place.
I would be taking your parts to a reputable engine repair and machining shop in your area, and getting them to inspect, measure up, and advise just what parts you require to get the car back on the road.
The Internet is a wonderful source of getting correct information, but sometimes, a "Hands-on" experience is not only warranted, but a necessity.
Bruce. >:D
ok thank you i understand.
the big problem is for shipping a new crankshaft >:(
Another (short term) source...
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=240716 (http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=240716)
He lists two 425 cranks and a 472 crank. $175 negotiable.
Might be able to work a deal with him, considering the ship to address ;)
Good news for me, today i receive a new crankshaft with new main bearing and rod bearing :)
now lot of work ;D
good news, the engine is OK.
the car runs very good.
thank you again for your help ;)
Great news mate,
Now you just have to run the engine in again.
But, this time, a little bit slower ::)
Bruce. >:D
Quote from: Crys59 on May 04, 2008, 02:26:23 PM
good news, the engine is OK.
the car runs very good.
thank you again for your help ;)
This is great and you are a very fast worker that put the rest of us to shame.
TED
yes i'am a fast worker ;)
i have two problem again, the crusie control and the climate :-\