Just took a typical FWD car that I just bought in for 2 new tires since the fronts are bald but the backs almost look new. Even getting the same model tires to match even though its not my favorite brand. Seemed odd to me that the fronts were shot and the backs were that good. Shop (big national chain) said they are now required (assuming by corporate) to put the new tires on the rear when the customer only wants to buy 2 tires. The cost is the same so its not like they are selling me something else. He says its because Michelin lost a lawsuit a couple of years ago when some woman (nothing against women but seems that auto lawsuits often come from women?) rolled her vehicle after getting 2 new tires installed on the front. Some testing was done and 'they' have now decided that its safer to have the best tires on the back of ANY vehicle.
I know some of the 4x and AWD stuff can be pretty sensitive when it comes to tires. All my stuff is front, rear, or part time 4x and I have always had the best tires on the front. I do have a 'yard truck' that has the good ones on the back but thats different.
What do you all think? Anyone read anything backing up what the tire places are saying?
I've never heard of that before. I've always put the best tires on the front regardless of drive train.
An internet search ought to turn up information about the supposed lawsuit. Sounds dubious to me.
You need the fronts to steer, so that's where my best go. But the rears should not be so much different; otherwise you might need a rotation scheme to keep them together. As for the dealer, he only gets my wheels. Then I take them home & put them on as I see fit. I've had too many incidents of them doing damage with those air wrenches; I put them on by hand & lube things as needed (brake drums should slide off, etc.). The air wrench is OK for removal. Bruce Roe CLC # 14630
This is just another case of too many lawyers (sorry guys) with nothing else to do but blame some big corporation for our stupidity. Remember the lady with the McDonalds hot coffee BETWEEN HER LEGS WHEN DRIVING, of course it was McDonald's fault!!!!!! My family owns a Michelin dealership and the information you were given is correct from Michelin regarding replacement of only two tires. "If only two tires are being replaced, the two newer tires need to be installed on the rear axle except if replacing them with lower speed rated tires. The new tires with deeper tread will provide better wet grip and evacuate water more effectively-which helps delay the onset of hydroplaning. Deeper tread tires on the rear axle will help avoid oversteer and a loss of vehicle stability."Michelin Tire Fitment Guide copyright 2009. I can't say I don't see reasons for the new smooth tires on the front, but the manufacturer says almost always the new tires belong on the rear. Hope this helps clarify the subject.
Interesting. Seems counter-intuitive but I guess that's correct.
Well TJ, I guess you have a lot of tire rotating to get to!
HI GUYS, GALS TOO! I've always been taught to have our best tires on the rear because of much better control of the car if you ever got a blowout it's easier to control the car if the blowout occured in the front tire than the rear. This is because you have somewhat of control due to the steering wheel. If a blowout happened to a rear tire the car would be swerving all over the place and it would be quite difficult to control this situation. I happen to agree with that suggestion too. EAM
Frankly, regardless of where the "big chain" puts them, I would change them myself so the better tyres are on the front.
Even the scenario EAM suggests (blow out in the rear tyre) is a non-event in a front wheel drive because you still have 100% of drive AND steering through the good tyres. Ya just drive it out of trouble!
Last time I had a flat in a rear tyre (AWD in the bush) I had driven 22 km on bush roads before I knew about it!
Regards,
John Tozer
#7946
I too put the new tyres on the front.
Better to have Steering Control, and less chance of a flat tyre with new tyres as well.
Bruce. >:D
"The new tires with deeper tread will provide better wet grip and evacuate water more effectively-which helps delay the onset of hydroplaning. " Yes they will, that is why I want them on the steering (front) position. AND the front tires make a track in the water so its easier for the rears to make contact, so they don't NEED to be as good. AND the fronts take most of the braking force, so they contribute more to shorter stopping distance. Bruce Roe CLC # 14630
I think this practice started after the Firestone/Explorer problem. The rollovers the Explorer had were almost entirely caused by rear tire failures.
Old myths die hard, but the fact is a blowout in the rear is much harder to control than one on the front. At high speed, the fishtailing can easily get get out of hand and you end up sideways quickly. With a tall sport ute, you can end up inverted.
Any blowout can be bad, but I have had a few on front tires and control has never been a big issue -- perhaps because the front wheels do steer and can easily correct much sway. Not so with the rear.
Bill
Albuquerque
just go with the flow and rotate the tires later. besides, you will wear out the tires you don't like faster... :) another note... when i bought new tires for my prius sams club wouldn't sell me the size i wanted... they would only install the factory size... at least i was able to go with another brand... thank you lawyers and frivilous lawsuits... :-\
"Old myths die hard, but the fact is a blowout in the rear is much harder to control than one on the front. At high speed, the fishtailing can easily get get out of hand and you end up sideways quickly."
Bill,
I only agree with this if you are talking about rear wheel drive (and maybe all-wheel drive depending on how they are set up) vehicles but the discussion here related intitially to front wheel drive cars. There is no way a rear blow out on a front wheel drive car needs to cause anything like the same result as a rear blow out on a rear wheel drive car. In fact, if the car is simply driven gradually to a stop, "fishtailing" in a front wheel drive car can be almost impossible because the rear of the car is being pulled along, not pushed by the rear wheels. Just check out what those World Rally guys manage to do with their cars with half the rear end missing!
On the other hand, a blow out in a front tyre on a front wheel drive car CAN be a handful depending on a whole pile of things including how much drive to the effected wheel remains after the blowout.
Regards,
John Tozer
#7946
The argument is based on the idea of tire blowout, for which the tire cos want to protect their behinds. Reality is, far more accidents are caused by insufficient traction in poor conditions. And THAT is what will control my tire placement. Bruce Roe
Most of the "Accidents" are the cause of the "Nut" behind the wheel.
Bruce. >:D
Years ago this discussion came up at work. We had a guy that liked to get the discussion as heated as possible. So he went around and asked everyone what they thought and told them what others had said. Some of the people said put new tires on the front some said put them on the rear and a few said it does not matter. But one guy said he puts the new tires on the left side. He was asked why? What in the world are you thinking? His answer was that he lived in a rural area and the roads were narrow. When you meet an oncoming car you frequently have to put the right wheels off the edge of the road. He wanted his best tires on the pavement for traction and not off the pavement where they were more likely to be damaged.
Sounds good to me. :D
Glen
This has been tested ower and ower whit the same conclusion, the best tires belongs in the rear. If you always drive on dry roads it probably don´t matter where the new ones are but on wet or snow covers roads its the different bbetweenlife and death!!!
Whit good traction in the rear there is less risk of fishtailing and hitting oncoming traffic sideways, wee who live in the snowy part of the world know this and there is newer any discussion where the new tires belong.
Quote from: Sweede64 on October 16, 2009, 04:26:04 PM
This has been tested ower and ower whit the same conclusion, the best tires belongs in the rear.
Not directed specifically to Sweede64 but rather to all those that keep saying its been proven, where are all these tests? The guys at the tire shop said the same thing yet could not come up with anything to back the statement. Im not doubting they are out there just seems strange that I have not found or heard of them. Im not sold on the idea myself but it seems to me that since there are a few people out there that are sure there must be something to back it up. Maybe its one to write into Mythbusters to test? Until last week I had never heard of this before for a FWD car. Yes much debate on other drive configurations but it always seemed to be sure on FWD that the best went up front.
TJ,
You're right of course and the reason there isn't much to quote by way of sources of information is, I suspect, because:
1. Much of it is common sense. Most accidents aren't caused nowadays by blow-outs. Most are caused by a failure to avoid a collision with something or a failure to remain on the road. This comes down to two factors - you couldn't steer your way out of the problem and/or you couldn't brake soon enough;
2. Don't care where you live or how dry/dusty or snowy it is, all of the steering effort and most of the braking effort in a car in that situation depends on the FRONT wheels.
3. In a front wheel drive car (which is where this post started) all the DRIVING effort is also through the front tyres in the event that you get the opportunity to avoid the collision or drive the car back onto the road.
Guess if your only concern when you drive a car is a blowout (even though it is most unlikely to be the cause of your accident if you are going to die in a car) put the new tyres wherever you like. Seems to me you had better be able to pick the type of accident and which wheel is going to blow-out too though
Bit like the old argument that was raised when seat belts became compulsory and they were deemed by some to be a bad idea if your car ends up on fire or in the water - great as long as you get to pick that accident that you are going to have but most of us don't!
Regards,
John Tozer
#7946
Touche.
Bruce. >:D
1. Best 2 tires on the front of a front wheel drive car makes total sense. They always wear more anyway.
2. With any blowout, no gas, no brakes, minimal steering to try to stay straight, if the situation allows.
3. Don't buy tires from any national chains. They always have an agenda driven by deals, spiffs, and house brands. If I never heard of it, I ain't buying it, and don't tell me who it is "made by". If they won't put their name on it, it's crap.
4. Independent tire stores that stock many brands are your best bet. They know which ones work the best on different cars.
5. Never skimp on tires. Modern radials last a L O N G time, and top of the line tires are better, always.
Brian
Are tires just that much better now days? I never thought about it before but when I was younger I remember even my mom and grandma could and had to change tires. Now days many people could not even find the tire or jack if they had to, not because they are bad people or always have AAA, they just have never had to. I would not think the roads are the reason and it does not seem to be the cars because even my old cars dont seem to have issues. Guess that leaves the tires?
I should add that I am not running 2 bald tires. Im mostly questing the theory and thinking about the people out there that have no mechanical ability or interest in anything other than getting a-b with minimum hassle and expense. The 2 used tires I kept were new new enough that the store sold me their service warranty on them even though there was no proof that they were sold by them. Based on the brand and number of their locations its most likely they sold them. Its not going to be my car so I want it easy and safe. Later today she (the driver of the car) is going to be helping fix some oil leaks and replace sway bar links. Not that she is ever going to have to do that stuff on the road but she will learn how to use the jack, remove a wheel, and what some of the parts are under the hood. I think her mom is going to be out there also since I found the overflow tank on her car full of washer fluid last week. At least it was not in the master cylinder, thats a mess to clean up.
Now that this topic is severely beat to death, I have an idea.
Put on all 4 matching tires at the same time and call it a day.
I just did today on my Pick-Up to the tune $497. Ouch !!! :o
MisFit
http://www.tiredefects.com/tire-failure-and-tire-blowouts.cfm
Some interesting reading here, the biggest problem , tire related, you can get into,
is a blow out on the rear axle, because the rear will loose the ability to hold the direction th car is going, as you will read on this website.
This is why major tire manufactures advise to put the best/new tires on the rear axle of a vehicle.
tire manufacturers also claim tires have no real expiration date on how old they can be and how long they last once produced before being installed. this is despite the fact that several people have died when their supposedly new tires were over a decade old at the time of install.....my new tires always go on the front, but i mainly always try to buy 4 at a time and always inspect the date codes before they are allowed to install them.
jeff
"Some interesting reading here, the biggest problem , tire related, you can get into,
is a blow out on the rear axle, because the rear will loose the ability to hold the direction the car is going, as you will read on this website."
I must have missed something here. This article is ONLY about blow-outs and makes no attempt to put blow-outs into perspective, so here goes:
http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/811162.PDF
gives the following data for the US in 2008:
1. There were 23,942 fatalities not involving roll-overs in 2008;
2. There were 8,037 fatalities involving roll-overs in 2008. There is no information as to how many of these would have involved a blow out but let's assume half. That's about 4,000 in 32,000 fatalities or about 12%.
3. On the other hand, there were 15,000 fatalities (47%) due to multiple vehicle collisions (i.e., most likely a failure to stop in time or to take evasive action to avoid the collision - a function of braking and steering effort or FRONT tyres).
Ergo, you are about four (4) times more likely to die from a failure to brake or take evasive action (front brakes and steering) than you are from having a blow-out (and that doesn't provide any detail as to whether it is a front or back wheel blow out that is responsible)!
"This is why major tire manufactures advise to put the best/new tires on the rear axle of a vehicle."
Nowhere on the referenced web site does it actually state this. As a previous poster says, trust the tyre companies if you will but here's another view based on the figures quoted above:
From the NHTSA data above, probably only 12 % of fatalities are directly and provably (if that's a word) related to tyre failure, either front or back wheel. The rest are due to degrees of Bruce's "Nut behind the Wheel".
The tyre manufacturers don't NEED to defend the other 88% of fatal prangs 'cos their tyres aren't generally implicated. The lawyers can't make big bucks out of Nuts behind the Wheel responsible for that 88% like they can from the tyre companies.
So who's surprised the manufacturers recommend you put the new tyres on the rear and the lawyers hope you don't?
Final say from me and my newies always go on the front!
John Tozer
#7946
Had a blow out on the left front with my boss's F-350 several years ago at 60 MPH. That truck swerved hard to the left and well into the oncoming traffic lane before I could get it back, even with power steering it was all I could do to get it back and hold it in my lane as I slowed down. I am convinced that anyone without a pair of reasonably strong arms would not have gotten that truck back into its proper lane and it might well have rolled over. I was very fortunate that it was a quiet road and no one was in the oncoming lane at the time.
Best tires on the front for me! I suppose one could always find one particular situation where best tires on the rear might be more advantageous, but in my opinion, most situations call for best on the front and that is the way it will be on my vehicles. Nuts to the lawyers.
Geoff N.
I had a similar experience some years back in a Dodge Dakota with a blow out on the left rear wheel. All 4 tires were in very good shape with lots of tread.
I was traveling in the high speed left lane of I-85 when I had a blow out at around 70mph. There was moderate traffic and I had to cross 5 lanes to get to the shoulder.
I had no problem steering and I experienced no fishtailing or scariness regarding the the handling of the truck.
Intuitively I have always thought that the best tires should go on the front regardless of drive train configuration. This discussion has given me a lot to consider, however.
One thing is true, though, now that I'm an"adult" (I'm sure there are plenty on this board who will challenge that) I can afford to keep good tires on all 4 wheels and rotate them to keep the wear even. I don't think I'll be faced with a dilemma that forces me to choose which tires go where.
In a blowout situation id prefer the rear to go but i had a front flat on a corevette once, doing 230kmp/ (150 mp/h) and did fine, slowed down and stopped whit out any problem. Dont want to think if it was in th rear....... i think speed and carmodel is more important.
However, winterdriving is a another matter, its iportant to bee able to stop and steer but going sideways doing 60 is not funny.
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=52
this morning i bought 2 tires for my pickup and read the poster that stated new tires on the rear because of concern of control :o in a standing water situation.
So Mr. Speedy, you didn't say where you installed the new tires - front or back? (or maybe left or right side)
If you're only replacing two worn tires, put them where the old worn tires came from. ;D
what if i wanted to put the new tires where the good tires were by way of duct tape and hot glue? surely 4 good tires on the rear and none on the front or vise versa would be the hip thing to do :) totally kidding so you all dont think im crazy..
jeff
".... so you all dont think im crazy"
Sounds like a job for crazy glue! :D
Quote from: mrspeedyt on October 20, 2009, 03:04:46 PM
this morning i bought 2 tires for my pickup and read the poster that stated new tires on the rear because of concern of control :o in a standing water situation.
Ok! I said I had said all that I was going to say but........
I read this and even I am prepared to admit to being:
- wrong (Oh how hard that is!)
- amazed,
- better informed than I was when this post started!
For the benefit of all our readers:
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=52
Good luck,
John Tozer
#7946
That makes sense. Unless you live in Arizona, I think most people are at a greater risk of hydroplaning than they of having a blow out.
Interesting that no mention was made of that possibility and what effects, if any, the new tires on the rear would have.
i put them on the rear... ::)
The Tire Rack article assumes front wheel drive in its scenario. It also assumes that the tires have never been rotated. My vehicles are rear wheel drive and I rotate my tires. Where does that take their discussion? Not convincing to this curmudgeonly dinosaur in the least.
Notice that there are links to determining proper tire pressure at that site also for those that need more on another subject totally thrashed to death here.
Geoff N.
Quote from: Geoff Newcombe #4719 on October 21, 2009, 09:13:52 AM
The Tire Rack article assumes front wheel drive in its scenario. It also assumes that the tires have never been rotated. My vehicles are rear wheel drive and I rotate my tires. Where does that take their discussion? Not convincing to this curmudgeonly dinosaur in the least.
Notice that there are links to determining proper tire pressure at that site also for those that need more on another subject totally thrashed to death here.
Geoff N.
Fwd or rwd is not the piont, if you hydroplane in the rear coasting in a straight lane it would be simulare to push the ebrake, spin spin spin spin out.............
And if the front hydroplanes? Don't see much difference in the feeling of terror that comes next. I'll still keep the best tires on the front. As I said before ---- "I suppose one could always find one particular situation where best tires on the rear might be more advantageous, but in my opinion, most situations call for best on the front and that is the way it will be on my vehicles."
End of discussion for me. Everyone else is free to do as they please!
Geoff N.
I think what they're saying is that if the rear end breaks free, there is almost nothing that can be done to correct it. If the front end breaks free, one has a better chance to bring the vehicle back in line by steering it. Either way it's going to suck but I see their point about skidding. As for blow out? that's something else entirely.
I absolutly would prefer the back end to skid anyone who drives in the snow or ever did donuts in a parking lot knows what I mean. P.S. I only drive rear wheel drive vehicles and a 1977 4WD pickup.
Quote from: Otto Skorzeny on October 25, 2009, 11:18:16 PM
I think what they're saying is that if the rear end breaks free, there is almost nothing that can be done to correct it. If the front end breaks free, one has a better chance to bring the vehicle back in line by steering it. Either way it's going to suck but I see their point about skidding. As for blow out? that's something else entirely.
Spot on, Otto
Sorry; I disagree. I had an incident with my 68 ELDO. The front tires were worn and I hit a patch of water on the road. I did not know right away anything was wrong, but I started to drift off to the left toward the center barrier. I turned the wheels but nothing happened. I continued to drift left. I then applied the brake and still nothing happened still on course for the barrier.
If I had been thinking better I would have tried applying power to see if it would come out of it. But before I could do that I was out of the water and immediately dove for the right shoulder and stopped.
I learned my lesson; I keep good tread on all tires. But I would want the best tread on the front to steer the car
Glen