I'm beginning to question whether some adjustment needs to be made to get engines like the flathead V-8 in my '40 LaSalle to operate properly when oxygenate-bearing (read: contains ethanol) gasoline goes in the tank during the cooler months. My question stems from this: yesterday, after a drive of about six miles from a cold start, it refused to re-start without considerable effort, shall we say, after a brief stop at a Wawa near where I live. Then, later in the day, after a run of ~90 miles (nearly all highway), it conked out at an intersection and refused flatly to re-start.
Perhaps this may be cured by a simple tune-up--and then again, perhaps there's some sort of seasonal adjustment I need to make in the fall and again in the spring. Any and all comments/suggestions are welcome. Thanks.
Based on your symptoms I would say unless you had vapor lock, this is not ethanol related unless it jelled in the fuel system or fuel filter. There is no " adjustment" that you could make that relates to the use of e15, maybe a slightly richer jetting, but thats it.
Ethanol does make the "vapor lock situation" worse especially in an old flathead
engine like yours. It lowers the boiling point of the gasoline, therefore making
vapor lock occur when it otherwise would probably not.
The only fixes are:
(1) don't use fuel with ethanol if at all possible. The rules on the labeling of fuel
with ethanol vary from state to state. PA (where I live) is a "must label" state and
that means the gas stations must state on the pump, for example, "CONTAINS 10%
ETHANOL". You may be able to find gasoline without ethanol.
(2) Add a lead additive (with real tetraethyl lead) -- they are available. TEA increases
the boiling point. Don't use an octane booster that contains alcohol -- that
doesn't help with this problem.
In a nutshell, those are the 2 reasons we're in this situation with increased vapor lock
problems in our older cars (1) addition of ethanol and (2) TEA having been eliminated.
Mike
If ambient temps were high I would say you had vapor lock but since you mention its cooler out that does not seem that likely. Sounds to me like you just got some bad gas and it was not necessarily the ethanol's fault. Im not a fan of the stuff but we have had it in my area for almost 20 years and our old stuff is still alive. There is a greater chance for things to get messed up between the refinery and your fuel tank especially if it is new in your area and they have not figured out the proper way to handle the stuff. If your car has problems it will usually find it. Most of the time people blamed the fuel but when they got into it found that there was some other sort of issue that needed to be dealt with that would have likely caused the same problem eventually even with 'good' fuel. I remember when we first got it in our area, it was going to be the end for all old engines. Back then hardly none of the manufactures had plastics and rubbers that were compatible and the already crusted and dried out stock stuff was certainly not up to the task. Over the last 10-15 years the stuff has got so common that anything you buy will be fine for the blends that are commonly used today. Some of the stuff is even good for E-85 which seems to be gaining in popularity in some areas.
Next time it happens, determine if it is fuel or spark related. Do not omit testing the coil, as they can fail hot, & work cold. Ask me why I know this.
c.chleboun #20099
Quote from: CEC #20099 on October 24, 2010, 11:25:43 PM
......... Do not omit testing the coil, as they can fail hot, & work cold. Ask me why I know this.......
And I have had coils fail when cold, and work when hot, and the same coil do the opposite. Boy, is that a story in itself.
Bruce. >:D
Steve brings up a good point. Note that he mentions "MARINE FORMULA".
This is the one you want to use -- it's blue in color. The normal "red" stuff
advertised for cars does not have a formulation that's as good as the marine
grade. Get it at any boat supply store or order of the net at:
http://www.westmarine.com/1/1/10973-marine-formula-sta-bil-32oz.html
The problem of alcohol separating from the gasoline (stratification) was recognized in
recreational boating use before it became an issue in cars. These machines, like our
antiques, spend much of their time sitting around and not being run. Hence,
they have similar issues.
Mike
OK: sounds like the first thing to try--and quite possibly the cheapest--is the marine fuel stabilizer ploy. More to follow in the fullness of time. Thanks to everyone for suggestions. Oh, yeah: any and all additional suggestions would be most welcome.
I have found that in central Illinois the Phillips 66 stations only have the E-10 ethanol fuel in the mid grade. The regular and premiums are E-0, so of course they cost more.
Check your fuel filter for pieces of fuel line deterioration starting to clog filter. Ethanol has a detrimental efffect on the older rubber components (read hoses). You may want to change any hoses to ethanol compatable fuel line hose.
I think Iowa is or was like that. They had a fancy name for the mid grade and a big corn logo on the pump and it was 89 or 90 octane but a few cents cheaper than the 87.
I had similar problems on my 1932 v-8, not vapor lock but percolation.
In colder weather you won't have vapor lock. The fuel will not boil in the lines coming into the fuel pump.
Percolation means that fuel was boiling in the carb, making the mix too rich by building up pressure and pushing more fuel in which leads to stalling at idle and not being able to re-start (heat soaked).
When you drive and bring the throttle wide open it will suck more air and you can avoid the sputter and stall due to the rich mix.
Vapor lock is the opposite, the mix is too lean as not enough fuel comes into the carb.
Percolation can be more common than vapor lock because of the design of the exhaust manifolds high up close to the carb, and the long neck of the older carbs (not on the 346).
E10 has a lower boiling point, and also the gasoline formulation can be different in winter (more volatile) than summer. My issue were always more common in winter.
Next time you have this issue, open the hood and check for an unusual gasonline smell.
One poster mentionned the lead additive, if this can bring the boiling point down that could be the best solution as the design of the whole fuel system is based on the more heavy fuels used in the past.
I did many modifications such as wrapping the manifolds in header tape, insulating the fuel lines into the carb, placing a thick, heat insulation carb gasket.
The most effective improvement was to re-rout the air intake from the more cooler place at the bottm of the car, just under the radiator.