Here we go again,66 eldo,85k with "factory contrasing piping" and a copy of thw window sticker provided to prove it is not!
I know I am over the top with research,but it's my hobby.
Before you claim yours is this rare special order,at least check the book to see if its even possible,contrasting seaming laces were a regular production option,and would be on the sticker,as well as build record.
I know,I own one!
Bill,
Can you post a link to that car?
Thanks, Bob
When I worked for Cadillac Motor Car Div. back then I remember a 66 Coupe painted in a non standard special order red, had an extra gallon of paint in the trunk. It was possible to special order some trim like the contrasting piping, I cannot recall exactly what was available but I seem to remember white seats blue or red piping.
Gentlemen,
Contrasting seam lacing was a special order $21.05 option. There are no exceptions noted in the ordering instructions, so I suspect that any combination could have been ordered. Bill is correct that the option should show on the window sticker. In addition, the Trim Code on the body plate should show “000â€. I feel it’s fine to restore/refresh a car to your taste, but it should be within available factory spec and it certainly shouldn’t be referred to as “originalâ€.
Ralph
Quote from: Bob Hoffmann CLC#96 on July 20, 2011, 12:46:07 PM
Bill,
Can you post a link to that car?
Thanks, Bob
I believe this would be the vehicle in question...
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1966-Eldorado-Convertible-Buckets-Headrests-GM-Classics-/150634668041?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item231286a009#ht_18539wt_1167
This seller posts quite a few cars at astronomical prices. Always with wire wheels as well.
Here is another one which does not seem to have been restored. ebay item number 300578799371
that second car on ebay may well be real,body tag is correct,and it also appears to have non-perforated leather,if that indeed is the original interior,as the car was a driver up to 78,then parked,it may well be.
I am sure that car has an interesting history,there was a factory special order 59 to indiana in blue/white,it went to one of the heads of a gm supplier,the name i do not recall,but it would not surprise me to find that this one went to the same customer.
as an aside,the piping cars were rare,they made exactly one 59 eldo that way,and on the paint subject,there were 2 59 biarritz,s with custom paint,one with non gm red for export,and one with multi stage pearl white to gm engineering dept!
Bill is correct. That car did not have piped interior. It had buckets, console head rests & RH recliner. The other car got the 000 for SO interior & the R for recliner. That info would be on the invoice. My only other comment is... WHY do these "low" milage cars need all that work????
Bob
Back in 1977 when I first started the hunt,I would only buy the clock if the car had history,and original tires.
Now,of course,that is not possible.
I submit that unless the car is a documented original car,the clock means ZEREO!
This was lesson # 1 in my training in the bus in 1970,buy the car,not the clock!
I research 57-60 Imperial converts also,found a 58 with 42,yes,42 original miles back in 91,one owner,problem was,he drove it home from the dealer,and parked it OUTSIDE behind his house from 58-91.
But it was the LOWEST mile one ON THE PLANET( I love that line) like you have seen them all!
Quote from: wrefakis on July 20, 2011, 07:16:01 PM
that second car on ebay may well be real,body tag is correct,and it also appears to have non-perforated leather,if that indeed is the original interior,as the car was a driver up to 78,then parked,it may well be.
So, out of curiosity, when you ordered the car with piping it would
not have the perforated leather seat facings?
2 seperate issues,contrasting laces would be ordered,then non-perforated leather would be a special order
i think its time for me to write an article on these special orders because for example if you see a body tag on a 59 biarritz,it will simply state SO123(body number),on 66 it would be 000,unless you actually have the so spec sheet,you can never determine what the configuration was!
contrasting laces up to 69 were 000,on 69-up they would be a prefix to the trim code,my 70 has 354 white with red components,so my body tag reads S354 for trim ,60/40 would be 354S; I owned a 67 with ooo trim that had 4 sales requestes on the special order sheet!
Bill,
You're correct that smooth - non perf leather was an SO "000" in '66. I have a number of years Optional Specifications Manuals showing there changes over the years regarding what could be ordered and the procedure to be followed. The lack of tracability of the actual special work order is frustrating at times, but does add a bit of mystique to a car. Absent documentation, the only thing we can judge SO claims by are the guidelines under which you could SO in a given time period. They evolved over time with greater restrictions but fundamental guidelines remained the same.
The observations you and Bob made about the window sticker and body plate of the two cars noted above demonstrate this.
Ralph
I am THE ONLY ONE ON EARTH that can say for sure how many of a special trim combo,or bucket seat 59 Biarritz were built,and thats because I have spent 100's of hours and over 15k on this project,and have EVERY original SO spec sheets.
All production total claims made for ANY Cadillac combo from 59-70 are total BS!
Hey,Ralph,are your 66 hood hinges black also??
Hi Bill,
I’m aware of your project and look forward to it when you publish……I’ve always been curious about SO's.
I wasn’t referring to the absolute number of SO’s or what they actually consisted of. The point I made referred to what could have been ordered, even if one was never built that way when new. IMHO such a car would be correct, but not original. A ’66 Fleetwood painted ’60 Pompeian Red would be correct. The same car painted special ’08 “Hot Lava†would be not be considered a correct car because that paint didn’t exist when the car was built.
My hood hinges are black with silver cad bolts and washers. In ’65 the hinges were “gold†cad. Even though Authenticity Manuals spec gold or silver cad on fasteners and small stamped parts, it’s very possible that both colors were used at times. Typical of all manufacturing processes, fasteners are specified as one finish â€" e.g. gold cad - “Or Equivalentâ€, which could be silver cad.
Ralph
I always kick those impossible cars aound,66 eldo,1965 matador red,white buckets w/red piping,etc. You actualy could put one together anyway you wanted to,what always surprised me,was how few did. In all my years of watching these cars since 1968,I have seen less than 10 piping cars between all these years combined,including all body styles!
The SO spec sheets are interesting,several are one of ones like the white 59 biarritz with fleetwood cloth and leather, vegas turquoise with black and turquoise bench,several others.
I know the guy with that 66,he is actually a nice guy,but you claim that you have researched and hunted these cars 30 years, and provide a sticker missing the cars claim to fame?
Bill,
I don’t know the owner or the car, nor am I saying anything disparaging about either. I responded to the question about black seam lace. My understanding of orders and window stickers is that the window sticker contains all options installed when built at the factory……but not the options that could be added later at the dealer. Based on the image of the window sticker, I don’t see the $21.05 cost for the option. Additionally, there’s no pic of the data plate showing the trim code. If it was indeed built that way, the pics do not provide the evidence. It could have been born with or without black seams, but the original question asked whether the color seams were correct. They were available in ’66 and I’d consider the car to be correct…….I also wouldn’t mind parking it in my garage next to my Brougham, making a sweet looking pair.
Ralph
I'm probably wrong, please educate me, I don't see any mention of the 000 trim code or contrasting piping in the Authenticity Manual or "Cadillacs of the Sixties" (my two main reference guides). I don't doubt the existence of the option, just wondering if you would have trouble being judged at a CLC event with this trim.
Chris,
Good question…..never thought of it. The SO availability was contained in a Cadillac book called Optional Specifications. They were a dealer/salesman’s tool showing what special options could be ordered and how to order them. They show up on eBay from $50 to whatever the market will bear. They are unique by year, but typically have the same overall guidelines. If you look at the pics of the forlorn blue Eldorado in this thread you’ll see it has dark blue piping and the data plate is marked “000†next to the trim entry. That's the way the book says it should be stamped.
I did my Brougham with Gray English wool broadcloth, which was an SO option on that model only. The car was born with Gray Delmont cloth -Trim Code 716, a silky grass cloth weave. I carry the Opt. Spec book with me if the car is in a judged show to prove authenticity.......It's correct not original. The peculiar thing is that judges don’t asks me about the broadcloth, only the really knowledgable Cadillac guys.
I'm not aware that any of the Authenticity Manuals contain SO information. The books are about 1/2" thick and would add a great to publication/printing costs.
HTH,
Ralph
Ralph,
Great response. That blue car a well documented "honest" example in both pictures & written text.
The black car is another story. It was not born with piped leather. It was not born with a limited slip rear diff.
In fact, it's really a VERY low option car. No trunk release, door locks, heated seats or cruise. I'm not even sure of the radio as I can't read the print. Maybe someone can.
Bob
Serious research time,I hope the attached comes thru,here is an actual page from 1970 "SR' listing,as they were filed.
Look at vin Fo163656,this is a 1959 Seminole red 70 convert.
Paint code 00,this would show on a 1970 body tag as PT -,from the tag,or the build sheet (shown as oo) you would never know what the color was.
You will note the vin is printed 4 times,look to the last item far right"no of s r s,for this vin,you will see the number 3,this car had 3 special requests,one being the 1959 paint,and I am still decoding the others.
The next sheet is my piping car,note in the box marked "SR" it states "1",the body plate has trim S354,this "S" prefix denotes an "SR",this however would slso show up for contrasing carpets,inspected a 9k mile red 70 with red 388 leather with black lower door and floor carpeting trim code S388.
Bottom line,from data tag,or build record,you still can not readily determine the original configuration
Hey,Ralph,how about a 66 brougham with factory front buckets? Yep,there was an old running original "so" running around long island 10 years back!
1970 "SO" record sheets
Bill,
I don’t know if it’s the same car but I’ve seen a ’66 Brougham on eBay with saddle Eldorado style buckets. It’s a correct SO according to the Opt. Spec. book; but why would anyone want them? Compared to the Fleetwood’s luxury sofa seats, the buckets are like beach chairs……..(Please no flames. My Eldorado had buckets and headrests, which by the way, poke tall people in the shoulder blades.)
Your description of the ’69 & 70 SR’s describes the frustration in researching an SO car. From my reading and research, I believe but can’t prove, that the SO and SR dealer offerings were set up around the manufacturing process. Any special order or request that could be handled in the normal assembly process seems to be included in the SO book. For example DeVille fabric could be put in a Fleetwood, but it would be sewn in the Fleetwood style. Prior year fabrics and colors could be ordered provided they were still available. In manufacturing functions, the processing documents for such an order are generally referred to as Factory Work Orders. It would have a number assigned and contain a detailed description of all the non standard items requested by the dealer order. There would be no need to keep the FWO records more than 3-5years after which they were most likely destroyed. The FWO would be the Holy Grail for authenticating the car, but another source document would be the dealer order. Again, unlikely to survive over the years. If you wanted a true custom, (say a lavender Eldorado with leopard skin upholstery and a human hair roof) it would have to be built in the experimental shop or possibly the Limo plant. However, I suspect your last name would have to be Sloan, Kettering, Mitchell or Earl to make that happen. This is where aftermarket coach builders and customizers came to the rescue like Barris’s custom 1960 Series 75 for Elvis.
As a youngster in my old neighborhood, there were many burly guys who never worked but always the finest cars. One of many, was a White over Wedgewood Blue ’55 Fleetwood with White leather and Blue â€V†cloth. It looked spectacular but I wondered why it was the only one I’d ever seen. I also wondered why Cadillac didn’t offer more leather bolsters on Fleetwoods before ’56. A few years ago I walked into my buddy’s shop and there was a similar Fleetwood waiting for an engine rebuild. It was very battered and tired. I checked the data plate and the trim said SO. I’m certain it was the same car. The owner was a young guy with starry eyed visions of a full restoration to former glory. I didn’t have the heart to tell him that he’d need a check book with a name on it like Sloan, Kettering, Mitchell or Earl to make that happen.
Ralph