Hi all,
I have a neighbor that has been recently widowed. She has two cars she would like me to help sell for her. One is a 1969 Cadillac Presidential. I am a Jeep guy and don't know much about old Caddies. I am trying to find value information and have not been able to find out too much. Would anyone here have a price range? I have not seen the car yet, but knowing her husband, I'm sure its about factory perfect. What I do know: he was the original owner, it has been stored in a heated garage since the day he bought it and it has less than 30,000 original miles on it. I will see the car this Thursday and will try and get the VIN along with the exact mileage. I would guess that it is a strong number 2 condition.
I don't think she is after making the most she can off the sale as she is making sure it goes to someone that would appreciate it for what it is. The car is located in Southeast Michigan.
Thanks for your time,
Bill Norris
Quote from: Bill Norris on April 01, 2013, 01:44:27 PM
Hi all,
I have a neighbor that has been recently widowed. She has two cars she would like me to help sell for her. One is a 1969 Cadillac Presidential. I am a Jeep guy and don't know much about old Caddies. I am trying to find value information and have not been able to find out too much. Would anyone here have a price range? I have not seen the car yet, but knowing her husband, I'm sure its about factory perfect. What I do know: he was the original owner, it has been stored in a heated garage since the day he bought it and it has less than 30,000 original miles on it. I will see the car this Thursday and will try and get the VIN along with the exact mileage. I would guess that it is a strong number 2 condition.
I don't think she is after making the most she can off the sale as she is making sure it goes to someone that would appreciate it for what it is. The car is located in Southeast Michigan.
Thanks for your time,
Bill Norris
Bill, lets start at square one. 1969 Cadillac Presidential? There were no such model produced that year, or, as far as I know any other year in Cadillac's existence. At best it might have been a dealer "customized" model.
You not being a Cadillac guy, I will try to make it easy for you, in identifying the car.
Is it a hardtop or a convertible?
2 doors or 4 doors?
Do you see any identifying scripts or names on the care i.e. coupe deville, sedan deville, fleetwood or eldorado.
I'm going to take a wild guess and say it is a limousine.
Quote from: David Smith on April 01, 2013, 02:14:03 PM
I'm going to take a wild guess and say it is a limousine.
That was going to be my first guess also ;) Many times limos in the past were known usually with what people mainly perceived their main use. I have heard limos referred to as funeral cars, cemetery cars etc.
I saw a presidential on eBay not long ago...it was an open vehicle with no top. They were saying it could be used as a parade vehicle. It was not original from GM. It was built by a limousine company. It was very nice and limited to 2 or 3 units. Very rare. I would love to see pics!
Speaking of Presidential Limosines as we were. Enjoy.
http://www.ctpost.com/national/slideshow/Presidential-limousines-through-the-years-58853.php#photo-4358871
Guys,
Thanks for responding. Yes, it is a Fleetwood 75 limousine version. Its a 4 door. I have seen one other place that it was referred to as a 'Presidential.' It looks like about 1,800 were built that year from what I can find online.
I will see if I can get some pictures of it on Thursday evening.
Thanks,
Bill
Quote from: Bill Norris on April 01, 2013, 03:06:29 PM
Guys,
Thanks for responding. Yes, it is a Fleetwood 75 limousine version. Its a 4 door. I have seen one other place that it was referred to as a 'Presidential.' It looks like about 1,800 were built that year from what I can find online.
I will see if I can get some pictures of it on Thursday evening.
Thanks,
Bill
Bill,
There were actually 2036 Fleetwood Series 75 produced that year. 880 were Sedans and 1156 were Limousines. The main difference being the Limousines had a divider window between the drivers/chauffeurs compartment and the back seat.
Quote from: Bill Norris on April 01, 2013, 03:06:29 PM
Guys,
Thanks for responding. Yes, it is a Fleetwood 75 limousine version. Its a 4 door. I have seen one other place that it was referred to as a 'Presidential.' It looks like about 1,800 were built that year from what I can find online.
I will see if I can get some pictures of it on Thursday evening.
Thanks,
Bill
Try and see whether the car has division window. If it does, the chauffeur's compartment should be black leather and cloth in the rear; if no divider window, it should be cloth throughout.
Thanks for the info. I will be sure to check for a divider.
Bill
Bill, where in the U.S. is the car located? Limos and 9 passenger sedans are great cars but have a limited market due to size requirements of storage facilities. A few of us crazy guys really love them. I have a 56 and 76 at th emoment. Keep us informed on this 69 please.
Hello Bill
Welcome to our club forum. Thank you for sharing this information regarding your neighbor. Our Motor City Region April meeting is at 7:30pm on April 4, 2013, at the Plymouth Historical Museum. The Cadillac & LaSalle Club Museum & Research Center curator, Tim Pawl a regular meeting attendee is familiar with the mentioned vehicle.
You can join us or contact me at 313-804-0276 to obtain his information. We are here to assist you.
I guess if I would have read it all the first time, I would have know its a Michigan car. Sorry. Curious to learn more.
Yes, the car is just north of Detroit.
I really wish I could attend that meet, but my schedule doesn't allow it this go around. Maybe the next one.
I just wanted to say how much I appreciate all of your help and feedback. You guys have been great.
Bill
I didn't know presidents had tails ??? :P
Get the VIN, The first letter will tell us if it is a Fleetwood 75 Sedan or Limousine. Limousines had the glass divider, but the leather chauffeur's compartment was optional if i recall correctly.
They also differed in how the power locks operated. Sedans locked and unlocked from the front, but the limousine rear controls were the only way to unlock the rear doors.
Quote from: cadillacmike68 on April 02, 2013, 10:00:54 AM
Limousines had the glass divider, but the leather chauffeur's compartment was optional if i recall correctly.
They also differed in how the power locks operated. Sedans locked and unlocked from the front, but the limousine rear controls were the only way to unlock the rear doors.
Unless the car were a special order, the front compartment would always be black leather on the "Limousine", later called "Formal Limousine". They were usually 45-45 bucket seats with only 2-way power control for the driver. That had pretty much been the policy for the LWB cars until 1984.
The first letter of the VIN will still tell us the model.
"Unless the car were a special order, the front compartment would always be black leather on the "Limousine", later called "Formal Limousine". They were usually 45-45 bucket seats with only 2-way power control for the driver. That had pretty much been the policy for the LWB cars until 1984. "
Actually, the 45/45 front seat arrangement doesn't begin on the formal cars until 1977.
Quote from: okccadman on April 03, 2013, 08:38:44 AM
"Unless the car were a special order, the front compartment would always be black leather on the "Limousine", later called "Formal Limousine". They were usually 45-45 bucket seats with only 2-way power control for the driver. That had pretty much been the policy for the LWB cars until 1984. "
Actually, the 45/45 front seat arrangement doesn't begin on the formal cars until 1977.
That is correct. I should've specified the 45-45 seats began in '77 while black leather chauffeur compartment had been a longstanding characteristic of the "true" limousine body style.
I'd rather have the Series 75 sedan style with the fold down center armrest! ;) I've never been much of a back seat rider.
Note that I did not say back seat driver. :P
Bill can you get us the VIN???
The one advantage of having the sedan, is that the front seat has more horizontal movement, while the limo's seat is very limited, and is very uncomfortable for taller chauffeurs. Of course if one is wealthy enough to afford both a personal limo and driver, the chauffeurs comfort is of little concern.
Speaking of chauffeurs comfort, I believe the use of leather in the drivers seat, is sort of traditional. I think it started in the days when the drivers compartment was exposed, and leather was more durable to the elements.
Quote from: Louis Smith on April 03, 2013, 02:54:14 PM
Speaking of chauffeurs comfort, I believe the use of leather in the drivers seat, is sort of traditional. I think it started in the days when the drivers compartment was exposed, and leather was more durable to the elements.
I agree- the black leather front on limousines was a bow to tradition.
Ok, I just got back from seeing the car. It is not a limo. The VIN is M9256987. I would be shocked if there was a nicer original car than this one. It has 32,000 miles on it, and I think the tires are original, but I'm not sure. The leather seats are like brand new. Not a crack anywhere. The original black paint shines like the day it rolled off the line. Not a ding or scratch anywhere.
This was a funeral home car that he would drive the family in. Once they were done, he would wash it, back it into the heated garage and cover it up. Every drive since 1969.
I will have figure out how to upload pictures.
Bill
(//)
Sorry for the bad pictures. They don't do the car justice. It needs a battery so I couldn't get it out in the light to take pictures. Ain't no way I'm pushing that thing out of the garage either!.
Great looking Bill. do yourself a favor and check the perimiter frame on both sides right around where the FLEETWOOD letters are on the front fenders. I once shopped a simillar car that had similar car and because the owner washed the car, did not take it for a spin before garaging, ended up with a rusted frame, and I mean almost rusted through. Tom CLC#6866
From the "M" in the VIN it's a Fleetwood 60 Special Brougham- (rear footrests were standard on Brougham). 3x black no less. Best colors for that car. If it's really all original, that's quite a find. Looks beautiful. Even the cadmium plating on the hood hinges looks great. Most of us only dream about finding cars in such a state of original preservation.
**Also check for rust bubbling underneath the vinyl roof. (Vinyl roof was also standard on the Brougham).
I would think that cars used for funeral service would be very desirable. Besides seeing limited use, and rarely abused, they usually are given top priority in maintenance and appearance. No undertaker wants to experience a breakdown, less they run into Robin Williams.
Next time I stop by, I will check the frame but I would be shocked if there is an issue there. I knew the owner and he was a fanatic about his cars. I will look though.
It does have the foot rests in the back- that's why the widow called it a 'presidential.' I doesn't have a vinyl roof though. Its all shiny sheet metal.
I'm going to help her get a battery and roll it out to get better pictures. He started it once a month whether he drove it or not, so its supposed to run like a top.
Any idea what this thing would be worth?
Bill
Quote from: Bill Norris on April 04, 2013, 07:43:42 PM
Next time I stop by, I will check the frame but I would be shocked if there is an issue there. I knew the owner and he was a fanatic about his cars. I will look though.
It does have the foot rests in the back- that's why the widow called it a 'presidential.' I doesn't have a vinyl roof though. Its all shiny sheet metal.
I'm going to help her get a battery and roll it out to get better pictures. He started it once a month whether he drove it or not, so its supposed to run like a top.
Any idea what this thing would be worth?
Bill
Ah the eternal question "what is it worth". I can say with complete certainty, it is worth what the buyer is willing to pay and what the seller is willing to take. Not trying to be sarcastic, but that is what it really boils down to. The owners are always trying to get as much as they can, and the buyer is trying to get it as cheap as possible. You can be sure that once it goes on sale, you will meet prospective buyers that will go over it with a fine tooth comb, and discover things you would never think of. My best guesstimate would be in the $5,000 - $10,000 range. If nothing else get a good battery, and take it out for a short "evaluation" run. Check all options. Nothing more embarrassing then showing the car and things aren't they way you thought they were.
Louis,
Thanks for the range. I am a antique Jeep guy, so I am not that familiar with Caddy values.
I want to stick a battery in it just so I can take it for a 'test drive' myself. Its such a magnificent looking car, I'm just dying to see what it drives like.
Thanks also for the suggestion on checking the accessories. I didn't consider that. Good point.
Bill
Quote from: Bill Norris on April 04, 2013, 07:43:42 PM
It does have the foot rests in the back- that's why the widow called it a 'presidential.' I doesn't have a vinyl roof though. Its all shiny sheet metal.
Bill
That's very interesting it has a painted roof. Does "Brougham" script appear at base of the sail panel of the roof? If so, it sounds like a possible special order delete vinyl roof. Some collectors actually prefer the plain 60 Special for that reason alone. I prefer the steel roof myself, plus being a Brougham makes it the best of both worlds.
OCPG gives the following values for the 1969 Fleetwood 60 Special Brougham: #1 $16,500; #2 11,550; #3 $7,430. Should be worth an extra premium for being 3x black + original. Is the paint showing any signs of cracking? Also check the lower rocker panels especially bottom of front fenders for signs of rust repair/bubbling as it was very common for rust to develop there. Lower rear quarter panels as well and bottom seams of doors. If all those areas are still excellent original with no signs of ever having been repaired, it sounds like a one-in-a-million find.
I don't think that's a Brougham. I think it's a standard 60 Special that they added footrests to. The Brougham should have map pockets on the back of the front seat as well as the vinyl top.
As for funeral home cars--I can attest to this--yes, they are well taken care of--cleaned religiously, garaged and serviced. BUT, they were rarely driven like a Cadillac was meant to be driven. The proverbial "little-old-lady" car that never went above 40 mph or ran longer than an hour at a time. We replaced 2 gas tanks in a hearse because it just sat around which then fouled the carb.
If a non-Brougham, although less expensive when new, it can be worth as much or more than the Brougham due to much fewer having been made.
Quote from: Walter Youshock on April 05, 2013, 09:33:58 AM
I don't think that's a Brougham. I think it's a standard 60 Special that they added footrests to. The Brougham should have map pockets on the back of the front seat as well as the vinyl top.
As for funeral home cars--I can attest to this--yes, they are well taken care of--cleaned religiously, garaged and serviced. BUT, they were rarely driven like a Cadillac was meant to be driven. The proverbial "little-old-lady" car that never went above 40 mph or ran longer than an hour at a time. We replaced 2 gas tanks in a hearse because it just sat around which then fouled the carb.
Good point. Very true that "professional" type vehicles, such as hearses, detective cars etc., while seeing limited duty, can be a double edged sword with different type of problems, such as you mentioned with the gas tanks.
There were no map pockets on the '69 Brougham. Also this car has Brougham style seats.
Any value differential may also be due to the steel top preference. FWIW: Value guides give the Brougham a slight edge over the plain 60 Special.
Granted I was in a garage when I looked at it, I really don't think there is any cracked paint any where on it. I did not see any bubbling either. In the off chance it has been repaired, he would have had the Cadillac dealer do it. I remember him telling me he bought a gallon of paint from the dealer when he bought the car just in case to make sure the color matched. He said he never had to open it.
I think I saw Brougham on the sail panel, but I might be mistaken. Unfortunately, did not take any pictures of the back of it.
I am going to call her tonight and see if I can drop a battery in it and pull it out. My other fear is that because her husband died three years ago, there might be varnish instead of gasoline. Hopefully, he ran it dry before he parked it the last time.
Bill
Congratulations! Another classic find. Thanks for sharing.
Definitely a nice car. Triple black and original - might be a car for you Eric! 8)
Quote from: Dan LeBlanc on April 05, 2013, 11:42:09 AM
Definitely a nice car. Triple black and original - might be a car for you Eric! 8)
If had two less doors and was 10 years older, you bet!!
Heck, I'd even overlook the 4 door part if I could still have it be 10 years older. ;D
Hi guys,
Nice car.
I think it's a Fleetwood Sixty Special with added footrests.
(If i see it right, it doesn't have the 60/40 seat, that the Brougham came with first for 69.)
M stands for Fleetwood Sixty Special (Style No. is 68069)
P stands for Fleetwood Brougham (Style No. is 68169)
Brougham features for 69: Vinyl roof, 60/40seats, adjustable reading lights in the back
the Name "Fleetwood Sixty Special Brougham" was used for the models starting in 71,
after they dropped the Fleetwood Sixty Special in 1970.
Thanks. Love the Fleetwoods!
T. Klak
Mr Klak is correct, M is a Sixty Special. Much more rare than a Brougham, and in my opinion more desirable! 2545 Sixty specials built in 69, 17,300 Broughams
Did they use the Brougham style seat when leather was ordered then?
Here are the seat styles for Sixty Special and Brougham.
Quote from: ericdev #8621 on April 05, 2013, 12:15:01 PM
If had two less doors and was 10 years older, you bet!!
Heck, I'd even overlook the 4 door part if I could still have it be 10 years older. ;D
Get it now, and store it for ten years 8) 8) 8)
Not sure what you GM guys call it, but there is like a dataplate under the driver's side hood hinge. Would that give any clue as to what it is? There is no way I could get my noggin under there to read it. I shoved the camera there, but it was too close and it came out blury. I might try tracing it with a pencil if you think that might be helpful.
Bill
Quote from: 936CD53 on April 05, 2013, 12:45:15 PM
Mr Klak is correct, M is a Sixty Special. Much more rare than a Brougham, and in my opinion more desirable! 2545 Sixty specials built in 69, 17,300 Broughams
You're right Craig, M is 60 Special; P for Brougham. Just can't figure out those seats!
The car should not have footrests; yet it does- which of course, could've been added. If the thing has those round reading lights in the back- then I'll be totally confused. ???
It looks as though the seat designs were the same for the 60 Special and Brougham. The map pockets were being considered for the Brougham option but never went into production. I was thinking of Roy Schneider's "Cadillac of the Sixties" book with the photo of them. The Brougham option included the vinyl top, the rear seat reading lamps with "Brougham" on the chrome panel and the footrests. A far cry from the '66-'67 Brougham option.
As for it being a funeral home car, the 60 Special makes even more sense. Still a Fleetwood but a bit less expensive and ostentatious than a Brougham. The footrests may have been added by the dealer.
Quote from: Bill Norris on April 05, 2013, 01:24:09 PM
Not sure what you GM guys call it, but there is like a dataplate under the driver's side hood hinge. Would that give any clue as to what it is? There is no way I could get my noggin under there to read it. I shoved the camera there, but it was too close and it came out blury. I might try tracing it with a pencil if you think that might be helpful.
Bill
The M eliminates the need for that but if you want to double check, the body style # should be 68069 for 60 Special.
I have a feeling she might have the original bill of sale- he was the kind of persont that would keep something like that. I'll see if she can find it. Maybe that will help to see if the foot rests were installed at the dealer.
Bill
Brougham seats in 1969 mean 60/40 seat with foot rests
Sixty Special had a bench seat, 60/40 was optional
Both styling types shown in the brochure - three pillow or two pillow with sewn ornamentry - were available for the Brougham and the Sixty Special.
All leather is always the three pillow design.
From the 69 Data Book:
Sixty Special:
UPHOLSTERY STYLING
Distinctive three horizontal pillow and button styling in handsome Devereaux or Dumont cloth inserts with leather characterizes the Fleetwood Sixty Special interior.
Beautifully rugged Sierra grain leather in this same style is available at extra charge.
Dubonnet cloth upholstery selections are superbly tailored in two horizontal pillow and button style with an attractive geometric design sewn in the seat cushion and seat back by the pique stitch method, and accented by buttons at each corner. Devereaux cloth has a large, ornate tapestry weave appearance for a truly luxurious feel and look.
Dumont cloth has a stately, masculine cord weave appearance while Dubonnet cloth has a two-tone appearance achieved through a trico knit weave.
Brougham:
UPHOLSTERY STYLING.
Three horizontal pillow and button styling in sumptuous Devereaux or Dumont cloth inserts with leather reflects the plush interior of the Fleetwood Brougham.
Beautifully rugged Sierra grain leather in this same style is available at extra charge.
Dubonnet cloth upholstery selections are superbly tailored in two horizontal pillow and button style with an attractive geometric design sewn in the seat cushion and seat back by the pique stitch method, and accented by buttons at each comer. Devereaux cloth has a large, ornate tapestry weave appearance for a truly luxurious feel and look. Dumont cloth has a stately, masculine cord weave appearance while Dubonnet cloth has a two-tone appearance achieved through a trico knit weave.
That was very helpful.
The original sales literature had implied certain upholstery décor as being specific to one model or the other but evidently this was not the case. Learned something new today. :)
Nada has the value listed at
High retail 10,500
Average retail 7,625
low retail 4,550
Quote from: rwchatham CLC 21892 on April 05, 2013, 07:19:56 PM
Nada has the value listed at
High retail 10,500
Average retail 7,625
low retail 4,550
What I guessed LOL
QuoteAh the eternal question "what is it worth". I can say with complete certainty, it is worth what the buyer is willing to pay and what the seller is willing to take. Not trying to be sarcastic, but that is what it really boils down to. The owners are always trying to get as much as they can, and the buyer is trying to get it as cheap as possible. You can be sure that once it goes on sale, you will meet prospective buyers that will go over it with a fine tooth comb, and discover things you would never think of. My best guesstimate would be in the $5,000 - $10,000 range. If nothing else get a good battery, and take it out for a short "evaluation" run. Check all options. Nothing more embarrassing then showing the car and things aren't they way you thought they were.
I'm really surprised these cars aren't worth that much. That's too bad.
Bill
Quote from: Bill Norris on April 05, 2013, 09:57:48 PM
I'm really surprised these cars aren't worth that much. That's too bad.
Bill
The classic car market place is a very strange place. There is no rhyme or reason, why cars cost as little or as much as they do. You would think that a big Cadillac almost 45 years would bring in a pretty penny. Fortunately not so. Fortunately for those of us that still appreciate the land yachts of the past, and are able to afford many of them! Dare I mention that part of the problem is that, while most people love to look at them, very few are willing to separate the necessary funds to acquire one.
If I could purchase this presidential for $5000, I would do so without hesitation. I would baby this car for the rest of my life and pass it on to my grandson who would do the same. Cars like this are once in a lifetime....period. If is available around 5 grand, by all means let me know. I would not even inspect it.
Quote from: pinkcaddy96 on April 05, 2013, 11:34:09 PM
If I could purchase this presidential for $5000, I would do so without hesitation. I would baby this car for the rest of my life and pass it on to my grandson who would do the same. Cars like this are once in a lifetime....period. If is available around 5 grand, by all means let me know. I would not even inspect it.
Pursue this car. If possible go see the owner with CASH in hand. Funny how some times the sight of money makes a deal more negotiable.
The M clearly makes this a Fleetwood 60 Special.
P was for Broughams, which was an option package in 1965, but got its own model designator in 1966, not 1969.
The 60 special was still in the lineup in 1970, but it was dropped for the 1971 model year. That said, I like to refer to my old (RIP) 1970 as a "Fleetwood Sixty Special Brougham" 8)
Quote from: T.Klak on April 05, 2013, 12:29:48 PM
Hi guys,
Nice car.
I think it's a Fleetwood Sixty Special with added footrests.
(If i see it right, it doesn't have the 60/40 seat, that the Brougham came with first for 69.)
M stands for Fleetwood Sixty Special (Style No. is 68069)
P stands for Fleetwood Brougham (Style No. is 68169)
Brougham features for 69: Vinyl roof, 60/40seats, adjustable reading lights in the back
the Name "Fleetwood Sixty Special Brougham" was used for the models starting in 71,
after they dropped the Fleetwood Sixty Special in 1970.
Thanks. Love the Fleetwoods!
T. Klak
Posted by: cadillacmike68
« on: Today at 01:35:18 AM »
P was for Broughams, which was an option package in 1965, but got its own model designator in 1966, not 1969.
I know.
But 60/40 seats were a Brougham first feature for 1969, that's what i tried to say.
Thanks and greetings from Germany (way too cold here for April)
Quote from: T.Klak on April 06, 2013, 03:51:10 AM
Posted by: cadillacmike68
« on: Today at 01:35:18 AM »
P was for Broughams, which was an option package in 1965, but got its own model designator in 1966, not 1969.
I know.
But 60/40 seats were a Brougham first feature for 1969, that's what i tried to say.
Thanks and greetings from Germany (way too cold here for April)
Wanna trade places? I'm in the desert!!!
I'd have to look up the seats. yes Broughams had the split front seat first introduced in 1969. I do not know if it was an option on the Sixty special.
there is a now defunct web site, fleetwood75.net, a Dutch site, that had every page of Cadillac brochures from 1958 to 1975, and had production numbers and MSRP base and options prices for all these years. It had all the engines from 58-75 as well, and some actual brochure scans as well. It was a great site.
Anyone else remember that site? It had a big black 1968 Fleetwood 75 as its front page, and I think it was hosted by a group called cruise brothers, a car club in the Netherlands.
I printed out and have in a binder, ALL the pages from that site. Wish I had then made into PDFs, I can still do that but they would be B&W scans from my printouts.
Quote from: Louis Smith on April 05, 2013, 10:11:40 PM
The classic car market place is a very strange place. There is no rhyme or reason, why cars cost as little or as much as they do. You would think that a big Cadillac almost 45 years would bring in a pretty penny. Fortunately not so. Fortunately for those of us that still appreciate the land yachts of the past, and are able to afford many of them! Dare I mention that part of the problem is that, while most people love to look at them, very few are willing to separate the necessary funds to acquire one.
Louis,
I understand. The other car she wants me to sell is a 1967 Jeep (the market I am really fimiliar) that has 14,000 original miles on it and in the same condition. He had it appraised for $39,000 in 2007. Now, if she gets $15,000 it would I would be surprised. The recession hit the market hard.
She doesn't need to sell the cars- she is more concerned that they will go to someone that would appreciate them like her husband would. That is more important to her than quick cash.
You guys can't pay alot for these things because you need that cash to drive them. ;) What does that thing get 5 mpg???? Its got to weigh about 5,000 lbs doesn't it?
She has not called me back yet- I think she is pretty disappointed in the values I sent her. We'll see.
Thanks for all the input.
Bill
Whereas value is concerned, collector interest has traditionally lied with the more sporty body styles. Ie: coupes/convertibles and such, far less so with large sedans. This is particularly true of Cadillacs from the mid-sixties and beyond. Even Series 62 sedans and Fleetwood 60 Specials of the mid 50s are not outrageously priced. On the plus side, here's a perfect example of a very nice vintage Cadillac that's well within the range of someone of relatively modest means. (Lest the old car hobby be accused of being limited to the rich).
The Fleetwood range was Cadillac's premium series of cars and perhaps one day they will finally get the recognition they deserve. Far more resources and quality materials went into building a '69 Fleetwood than a '69 Corvette yet today, the Vette is worth many times the value of the Cadillac. Whether that's for the better or for worse, perhaps it's best not speculate. At least (for the time being) it does have benefits.
Quote from: Bill Norris on April 06, 2013, 09:13:58 AM
Louis,
I understand. The other car she wants me to sell is a 1967 Jeep (the market I am really fimiliar) that has 14,000 original miles on it and in the same condition. He had it appraised for $39,000 in 2007. Now, if she gets $15,000 it would I would be surprised. The recession hit the market hard.
She doesn't need to sell the cars- she is more concerned that they will go to someone that would appreciate them like her husband would. That is more important to her than quick cash.
You guys can't pay alot for these things because you need that cash to drive them. ;) What does that thing get 5 mpg???? Its got to weigh about 5,000 lbs doesn't it?
She has not called me back yet- I think she is pretty disappointed in the values I sent her. We'll see.
Thanks for all the input.
Bill
If you'll forgive the inquisitiveness, may I ask what she was roughly expecting for the Fleetwood?
**MPG has very little relevance to the value of a collector car.
Eric,
I honestly don't know. I gave her these numbers in a printout and her mouth wrinkled. She said she would talk it over with her brother-in-law and let me know. She told me she didn't know what it was worth, but I think she was expecting probably double this- but that is just a guess on my part. She is not a car person at all and she was probably thinking like me that it had to naturally be worth alot just because of the condition and what it is.
I also agree these cars are so much finer than a '69 vette that rattles like crazy. If I had the money and space I'd buy this thing myself. This baby just exudes class and comfort. I love how the rear doors open a full 90 degrees and close so smoothly. I think my wife and I and all three kids could fit in that backseat!
I'm really hoping she lets me drive it. That has to be quite an experience.
Bill
Quote from: Bill Norris on April 06, 2013, 10:29:57 AM
Eric,
I honestly don't know. I gave her these numbers in a printout and her mouth wrinkled. She said she would talk it over with her brother-in-law and let me know. She told me she didn't know what it was worth, but I think she was expecting probably double this- but that is just a guess on my part. She is not a car person at all and she was probably thinking like me that it had to naturally be worth alot just because of the condition and what it is.
I also agree these cars are so much finer than a '69 vette that rattles like crazy. If I had the money and space I'd buy this thing myself. This baby just exudes class and comfort. I love how the rear doors open a full 90 degrees and close so smoothly. I think my wife and I and all three kids could fit in that backseat!
I'm really hoping she lets me drive it. That has to be quite an experience.
Bill
Yea- it seems that almost everybody thinks their old car is worth a fortune these days- no matter what it is. It's as good as testimony to the old adage, "A little knowledge is dangerous..." Chalk it up to another new reality due those Barrett Jackson car auction telecasts. (Which may or may not be a contributing factor in this particular case).
While I haven't seen enough of the car in order to make an evaluation with any degree of reliability, I will say that if the car is truly a strong #2 original throughout, the color combo, mileage and pedigree, it's probably worth every bit of $10K+.
One thing about price guides- they're just that- A
guide. The guide makes cannot make adjustments for originality, options and colors but it the real world, it can and
often makes the difference between two otherwise identical cars being worth x and 2x.
As an example, in the early 1990s I came across a plain-Jane 1964 Cadillac Series 62 Sedan 4W. Boring beige and not a single option on the car. The car had 680 miles. The "price guide" at the time placed a condition #1 value on said car @ around $8,000. The car was sold for $24,000 or
three times the price guide's high estimate.
Although this is an extreme case but it serves to illustrate that "price guides" are hardly gospel. This is especially true of exceptional original examples where values of 2x price guide at auction are really not that uncommon these days.
A 1964 no option Series 62 would not even have power windows! :o
I'd really like to get another 68-70 Fleetwood Brougham or 60 Special, but I don't think it would physically fit in my garage. :(
That, and the boss lady will go apesh!t. :P
However, a 1992 Brougham will fit. 8)
For all of you that are interested in this car, the owner's niece just called me and said she is out of town until next week. I won't have any updates on the condition or her asking price until then.
Thanks to all of you that have expressed an interest.
Bill
Bill, thanks for posting all the info on the car! Happy to answer any questions you have too as I have all dealer manuals and all literature for 69s and have a '69 black Fleetwood myself (my '69 from Detroit area)....may even be interested if for sale ;) Thanks!
I really like these old M and P bodies (and Fs as well ;) ). If I had the $$ and space, I'd get a 68, 69, and 70 DeVille Convertible, Fleetwood 60 Special and Fleetwood Brougham, plus a 73, and 74 Fleetwood Talisman to be complete. Throw in a 71 and 72 Eldorado convertible to even things out, and I'd be all set. 8)
I'd also be broke, but who cares... :P
What ever happened to this car? Did someone purchase it or not? :-\
Hi,
Nope, the car hasn't been sold yet. I apologize for the delay getting more information. The widow was out of town, and now my three kids' spring sports seasons have started so I just haven't gotten a day to get back over there.
I talked to one of the employees of the funeral home and he told me the car was last started about 6 months ago and it ran like a top. However, that is all they did. They did not drive it.
I am going to see if she will allow it to be driven to the local Cadillac club meet this coming Thursday at Rinke- one of you guys graciously invited me to. I have no idea if the car is licensed though, but it does have insurance.
I'll post more info when I get more. Thanks for your patience.
Bill
I finally got in touch with the widow. She is looking to get $15,812 for the car. I don't know how she came up with that number, but it has some meaning to her.
I am going to get over there next week to get more pictures. I will post when I get them.
They started the car today and it ran like a top. Apparently, they start it and drive it every six months. All accessories work. There is no original documentation though.
If I should move this thread to a different board, please let me know.
Thanks everyone.
Bill
Seems a bit high but not seeing the car in person it's hard to say. Trouble is, car is likely to need a couple grand worth of mechanical freshening and you'd be pushing $20K which is too much to be in the car in my opinion. If the car was 100% turn key, thoroughly gone through and tended with a full top-to-bottom detail, maybe then you could justify $16K and you're done.
I see closer to $12K worth of property here. Just one man's opinion.
Eric,
Thanks for the opinion. I'll get better pictures and hopefully that will show a better story. I'll look into the detailing. Why do you say mechanical refreshing? Just curious.
Thanks alot.
Bill
I'm kind of in line with Eric on this. If it was a DeVille convertible, maybe, but as a 60 Special, it has to be 100% ready to drive up and down I-95 for to be worth that much...
Too high. You can buy a very nice convertible for that kind of money.
Quote from: David Smith on May 04, 2013, 05:41:09 AM
Too high. You can buy a very nice convertible for that kind of money.
Keep in mind we're assuming this particular example is reportedly a strong #2 black on black car with all original paint with near mint original chrome and interior. A convertible in similar condition in the same colors colors would easily command $20K+ all day long.
Mr Norris- For whatever it may be worth, a close friend recently sold a 1970 Coupe deVille. Car was one of the finest unrestored 1970 Coupe deVilles in the world #1- condition with 12,000 miles. Car was olive green metallic, matching roof with beige brocade interior- not exactly the most attractive color combo but what it lacked in colors, it made up for in condition which was the most flawless original imaginable and turn-key ready I've ever seen. The car was sold for $20,000. So there's perhaps a starting point of reference.
As far as mechanical freshening goes, it's very likely that this car is still going to need a bunch of odds and ends to make it fully functional and safe to operate which is completely normal for almost any car that saw very little use over a period of decades. Brake system, shocks, cooling system, exhaust and any combination of a hundred other little things are likely to need
some level attention, despite the best preventative efforts. This is particularly true of a car that has been seldom driven, being used only sporadically and for very short intervals. Once you start driving it more regularly, you'll see what I mean as you start "flushing all the bugs out".
HTH
Eric
Guys,
Thanks again for the feedback. I really appreciate you taking the time to help me out.
Mechanically, I would say it probably needs nothing, but I will have them pull the service receipts if they have them. I believe he had all of that done at the local dealer.
I'll also find out what her bottom line price is. In all honesty, what she is asking for the Jeep is pretty high too and I don't think she will be able to get that either. The interesting part of it is, the Jeep is about as direct an opposite vehicle as you can get from the Fleetwood- crude, rough riding, small 4 banger etc, yet its turning out to be more valuable. I would never have guess that to happen!
Thanks again everyone,
Bill
Hi all,
I apologize for taking so long. Kids are out of school now, sports are done and her Jeep is sold, so now I can focus on selling this car. I went over there today to take pictures. They can be found here:
//http://s1288.photobucket.com/user/billnorris2a/library/1969%20Cadillac%20Fleetwood%2060%20Special
Hopefully, my pictures do the car justice. For those shots that look like their is dirt or blemishes in the paint, its just a reflection of dirt on the ground. Here are a few issues I found with the car,. I am no Caddy expert so there may be more.
1. The left front brake made a humming noise when applied. Its not a squeal or a grind, its a hum like it needs to be adjusted.
2. The air conditioning blows cool but not as cold as I would have expected. I also think the compressor has been replaced judging by the font on the part.
3. I found two pea sized dings. I tried to take pictures, but with the shiny paint it just doesn't show up in the pictures.
4. I don't believe the power antenna works. I ASSUME it goes up when the radio is turned on. That didn't happen.
5. Also not sure if the rear defrost works. I believe it should be like a fan motor. I could not hear anything when it was turned on. Not sure where it is supposed to blow out of either.
6. I think it had a minor mishap at some point. There was a spare grill in the garage where the fins were seperated. I think that would also explain the bent fins on the radiator. Other than that, I don't think it had ever been in an accident of any kind.
That is all I could find wrong with the car, but again I am not an expert. It should be a strong #2 all original car. The paint still shines like new. The starter makes half a revolution and it starts right up. I could not find any bubbling paint anywhere. The fender skirts are solid as is the area behind the 'Fleetwood' emblems.
Any questions or interest, please call me at 248-404-7113 or my e-mail is billnorris@wowway.com. The widow is asking $15,000 for it, but I think there maybe some wiggle room in there. She really wants this car to go to someone that will appreciate as much as her husband did. Car is located in Troy, MI.
Thanks alot,
Bill Norris
Looks very nice.
The power antenna is not automatic on this car.
To raise the antenna, key must be ON or in ACCY position and tuning knob is pushed in; to retract, the knob is pulled out.
Thanks Eric. I'll call back over there and have them confirm.
Bill
Since I don't have any interest in purchasing this car, I will not critique it or comment on the price, other then to say. I think all steel topped fleetwoods were not that common. Since the fleetwood models were the top of the line, most buyers opted for the vinyl tops. Here is a link for '70 Fleetwood, and its a Brougham, for your dining and dancing pleasure.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Brougham-/261230133832;jsessionid=DED8ED3638B5C6A60F922AB6D95A9B0E?ViewItem=&item=261230133832&forcev4exp=true#v4-48
Quote from: ericdev on June 19, 2013, 07:03:30 PM
Looks very nice.
The power antenna is not automatic on this car.
To raise the antenna, key must be ON or in ACCY position and tuning knob is pushed in; to retract, the knob is pulled out.
That's for 1965-68. I think 1969s had a sliding switch at the top of the radio that was marked "power ant up dn" or something like that.
Quote from: cadillacmike68 on June 20, 2013, 04:26:27 AM
That's for 1965-68. I think 1969s had a sliding switch at the top of the radio that was marked "power ant up dn" or something like that.
Yes, I think that's right.
Quote from: cadillacmike68 on June 20, 2013, 04:26:27 AM
That's for 1965-68. I think 1969s had a sliding switch at the top of the radio that was marked "power ant up dn" or something like that.
I don’t believe the sliding switch came into being until sometime in the 70’s. The push/pull the tuning knob was on the 56s my parents owned and on the 69 Eldo I had. The 70 had the antenna in the windshield. No power antenna.
According to the parts book the first electric antenna was 1956, before that 1941 to 1955 the antennas were vacuum. The next antenna after 69 (in the 74 parts book) is 1973.
I had two 1969s way back, and that's how the antenna went up and down. I just can't remember the exact wording on the switch.
The volume knob push / pull was last used in 1968.
The antennas might not have changed, but the radios were changing every year or every other year.
Quote from: cadillacmike68 on June 21, 2013, 08:27:48 AM
I had two 1969s way back, and that's how the antenna went up and down. I just can't remember the exact wording on the switch.
The volume knob push / pull was last used in 1968.
The antennas might not have changed, but the radios were changing every year or every other year.
No words, just an up arrow and a down down arrow.
(https://forums.cadillaclasalle.club/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm7.staticflickr.com%2F6101%2F6219443119_c2cfbbbd83_o.jpg&hash=f8c34e3326984169bc87bc8a24f6e83d95fd3cfe)
That's it! The slider was for changing b/w AM & FM.
Very nicely equipped Eldorado there Dave 8) .
You know if this car wasn't up in MI, and I had some garage space (and if the owner would be reasonable).......
Quote from: David Smith on June 21, 2013, 08:51:43 AM
No words, just an up arrow and a down down arrow.
(https://forums.cadillaclasalle.club/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm7.staticflickr.com%2F6101%2F6219443119_c2cfbbbd83_o.jpg&hash=f8c34e3326984169bc87bc8a24f6e83d95fd3cfe)
Is that an original 1968 Christmas Tree Air Fresher?
Thanks but that isn't my Eldorado. Mine is a 68.
That photo is one of the 27,000 in my Flickr database.
Now this is a well equipped 1969 Caddy below.
(https://forums.cadillaclasalle.club/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm8.staticflickr.com%2F7421%2F8977384506_4023cccedf_z.jpg&hash=e9dfdbe00584c6c51ed36e5f1adb0fb2bc00143b)
Ah.. So it changed when they changed the radio from both knobs on one side to one on each side.
Wish I had the owners manuals on PDF.
David, your 69 Eldorado has 70 and later style cruise control. Did Cadillac make a mid year running change in 69 to the newer version?
Again, not my car.
The 69 Eldorado had a different cruise control (vacuum) set up than the rear drive Deville & Fleetwoods. (Electronic)
(https://forums.cadillaclasalle.club/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm6.staticflickr.com%2F5149%2F5609580892_b947c204dc_b.jpg&hash=a7bec8bf7e4322560879ef9bef9940abb32ea196)
This is the Deville type here.
That mechanical / electrical cruise control on the 1969 DeVilles and all 1968 & older cars was notoriously inaccurate and finicky. I still can't get mine to work (needs another in dash unit, which I have) and possible a new servo control in the engine compartment.
Quote from: cadillacmike68 on June 24, 2013, 06:32:41 AM
That mechanical / electrical cruise control on the 1969 DeVilles and all 1968 & older cars was notoriously inaccurate and finicky. I still can't get mine to work (needs another in dash unit, which I have) and possible a new servo control in the engine compartment.
Agreed. My 67 hardtop Sedan Deville had Cruise and it was very inaccurate and finicky. I was going to install it in my 68 Eldorado, but considering I would probably never use it I may just skip it.
Dave, I wouldn't bother. That is the biggest PITA retrofit of any accessory you need all sorts of little parts everywhere, brake cutoffs, different speedo cables, power wires, etc.... no thanks. I's rather try to fit power vent windows before trying to do this.
The part that was killing me was the dash switch. You need to swap out the entire dash bezel because the big round hole is cast into it.
I found one, but replacing it requires disassembling most of the dashboard to swap them. All the controls bolt to the bezel from behind. The headlamp switch, wipers, HVAC and radio too! Ugh, what a mess. That was enough to discourage me. I much prefer the 74 and newer Cadillac dashboards where all the components are serviceable from the front of the dash.
Got alot of nibbles on the car, but nobody serious. I talked to the widow and she will go down to $13,000. If anyone is interested, please let me know.
Thanks,
Bill
248-404-7113
billnorris@wowway.com
I am getting alot of interest in this car again. I should have posted earlier that the widow wound up selling to a friend. I don't know what the terms were.
Thanks for everyone that contacted me.
Bill Norris