I am having trouble starting the engine, there is good spark, gas flow is good new plugs, new points new dist cap. there is 0 suction thru the carb. The car was driven into the garage & was running ok., left for a month & since then will not start. We have tried oil down the plug holes with the thought that we could have lost compression due to oil draining away from the pistons. Any thoughts on this problem would be appreciated.
B. Watson
Hi Bruce
I think all of us have been through this at one time or another. I just started a 390 that has been sitting in a horse pasture dice 91. Check your plugs to make sure they are not fouled from the oil. Double check the plug wires are connected to the correct ones. Sometimes changing the cap they can get mixed up. Check the point gap on the new points If you have verified voltage to the coil with the key on with the help of a friend you can try turning it over and trickle a bit a gas into the carb. Be prepared for a possible back fire. But if everything is working it should fire up even if the carb is not working right. The accelerator pump can dry out and could be not working keeping it from priming itself. If it does not fire verify that the spark is at the plugs. If not you will need to check the coil and possibly the condenser. Good luck
Randy
Did you write that there was 0 suction at the carb??? To me that MAY indicate a worn/broken timing chain or gear.
Thank you all for your input into the problem . I think the next step would be to pull the heads, my suspicion is that I have a valve or valves stuck open? That my be the reason for the 0 suction thru the carb? Does that make any sense?
B. Watson
That could well be the problem. I know it happens to me when the cars sit for awhile. I have been lucky enough to have spraying Marvel Mystery Oil into the spark plug holes (aiming upward at the valves) to get them started and after running for a few seconds they are OK. I attribute the problem to ethnol cleaning the lubricating properties of the gas these engines were designed for. Harry
I'd shoot a little marvel mystery oil or auto trans fluid in each spark plug hole and get another condenser (they're famous for failing).Put the plugs back in after wetting them with a bit of gas. Next put a little gas down the carb and give her a shot at the starter. If you disturbed the distributor you may need to loosen the hold down bolt and rotate it as you turn over the engine. I've had very good luck switching to Pertronix. That way there's no doubt about points dwell or condenser or coil issues and the coil can be made to look just like the original. You can do that with 6 or 12 volt system.
Ken Karrer
1941 6227D coupe
1955 62 convertible
Richard may be right!! Years ago i had the same problem with my 47 Cad. & the problem was on start up the timing chain jumped about 3 teeth and even though i had spark & gas the engine would not run. The way to check this is set the timing mark on the front vibration damper at zero & check the rotor in the dist & see if it lines up with the # 1 cylinder wire. Bear in mind that the engine may be on the exhaust stroke & you may need to turn it over 180 degrees to get the right results. If the valves are in the wrong position you will not get any air flow to the engine. It is quite common for the chain to jump in the starter mode.
Lee DeVol
Lee,
Thank you for your input, I followed what you have suggested & so far still no start. Is there a way to check that No 1 is on the compression stroke or exhaust stroke, which might indicate the distributor is out 180 deg.?
Bruce Watson
Bruce; With a jumped timing chain you will still get spark & fuel as the camshaft is still turning. The main thing is to make sure that the rotor lines up with the #1 cylinder wire which should be the first cylinder on the left bank with the timing mark on the
vibration damper lined up. The car not running for a month is not long enough for the valves or rings to seize up. If by turning the motor over twice to line up with #1 wire you don't get the right results then the timing chain is your problem. Replacing the chain is not a big job on that engine. First you remove the radiator, the fan, the gen., the vibration damper & pulley, remove 4 bolts that secure the the chain housing to the oil pan, & remove the fuel pump. After this you look to see if the marks on the crank shaft gear & the camshaft gear line up with each other. The most difficult part of the job is you will need a puller to remove the vibration damper.
Lee DeVol
Lee, thanks again for your interest on my no start problem. No 1 cylinder lines up with the timing mark (A/G) on the damper. The rotor lines up with No 1 wire in the distributor. Would this exclude the timing chain as the problem?
Regards
Bruce Watson
On a no start, after determining that there is fuel and spark, the next step is a compression test.
Brett, thanks for your input, I will check the compression, it certainly doesn't sound like a timing chain problem when # 1 lines up with A/G on the damper as well as the rotor lining up with No 1 plug wire ??
Regards
Bruce Watson
Thank all of you for your input on this no start problem, A compression test shows the left bank consistent at 50PSI (no great) the right bank has various compression reading from 20 to 30. Even though there is some compression ,would this not be enough for the engine to fire up? The lack of suction thru the carb & the no start problem could this be a valve or valves stuck open?
Bruce Watson
ZERO VACUUM at carb----------------- A CLUE? Yes----- Next is to confirm that with a compression test... But back to "ZERO" vacuum-- So you are saying that if you put your hand completely over the top of the carb and crank the engine, there is NO suction against your hand? OK---- If NONE at all..... ZERO---- But you have spark-- and the rotor point to #1 with timing mark right on.... THEN NEXT is to confirm the situation with a compression test.. ALL plugs OUT-- then test each cylinder.. crank-- boom boom boom three strokes-- WHAT did the gauge do on the FIRST stroke? And what did it do on each stroke after that?
OK-- Now you have a base-line to work with.. NOW we can begin a checklist:
Hmm-- DROVE it in the garage-- sat for a month--- Just how GOOD was it running during that drive into the garage? BIG question, how DRY is the garage? Does the wife do her laundry in the garage and use a clothes drier that is, maybe not well vented? ---- How OLD is the gas in the tank? SMELL THE DANG GAS, is it rancid? KEEP FIRMLY in mind that this bad gas they are making has some nasty stuff in it that will STICK YOUR VALVE STEMS in the GUIDES............
some thing is not right..and with compression like that.....the first thing I would do is pull the timing cover.... Gene.....
You cant drive a car perfectly OK, park up and then loose all compression for mechanical reasons. You might get a stuck valve but unlikely on a worn engine and not on all the valves.
It still sounds to me that during attempts at starting the engine it has been completely flooded and washed all oil out the pistons. I have seen this several times and believe me there is no vacuum at the carb when this happens. Perhaps you didn't squirt enough oil in the cylinders Bruce?
Remove all the plugs, make sure the manifold is dry and not filled with fuel. Give each bore 4 or 5 good pumps from an oil can, spin the engine over several times for about 5 seconds so's not to overload the starter, but leave the throttle alone, then check your compression and try to start it.
If it does start it will smoke like the devil for a while.
Gene, I am just amazed at the response. When you mention the first thing you would do is pull the cover from the timing chain. Even with the No 1 plug on the A/G mark as well as the rotor on No 1 is there still a chance that the chain has skipped a notch or two?
Br4uce Watson
Even with the No 1 plug on the A/G mark as well as the rotor on No 1 is there still a chance that the chain has skipped a notch or two
Br4uce Watson
[/quote]
I'm pretty sure its not at all possible for the timing chain to jump its teeth. It would have to be so worn out it was slapping the inside of the cover for thousands of miles. I have rebuilt a number of these engines and I have never seen a chain that could jump the teeth even when worn so much they were rattling the cover.
Remember Bruce, you have two TDC positions for number one piston, you must make sure your on the compression stoke of number 1 when rotor is pointing to number 1, but if you have not touched the distributor since the engine was last running there can be nothing wrong with the timing, so leave the cover alone.
Thanks Steve for your assistance. I have recognized that you have to be on the compression stroke, and the rotor to be on No 1 .
Am I on the correct path thinking that it may be a valve or valves stuck open to have the complete loss of suction thru the carb? As far as the timing chain, there never has been any noise or rattling even when I last drove the car into its parking spot. The car has always ran very smoothly although I have recognized it does not have the power that my 38 has.
Bruce W
I have had constant issues with gasoline sticking to the valves and making the engine hard to start and run very rough on my 1947 246 engine... and that after sitting only a week or so, hardly "old gas".
My engine was never rebuilt, I suspect that the valve springs are worn to the point that a bit of gum from gas is enough to cause these issues on the valves.
Never had such problems with my nicely rebuilt 1932 355b engine.
The solution: switch to high-octane gas. Premium evaporates a lot faster and cleaner.
After switching to premium, I never experience those valves issues anymore, even after sitting for 3 months.
Bruce, you would need almost all the valves stuck to loose all vacuum at the carb. Did you read my post above about Oiling the bores?
Steve, Thanks again for the info re the valves. Yes I did pay attention to your comments on squirting oil into the plug holes. I had done that a while ago but I must admit I put a very small amount in. I will try it once again with the amount you mentioned. I have been using the High octane gas in the 38 ( in Canada Shell & Chevron have no additives in their High Octane). If, or should I say when I get the 48 running I will be switching over to the high Octane as well. I will try to get back to working on the 48 this week. Will keep you posted>
Regards
Bruce W
Steve, I worked on the 48 this AM. I put 5 good squirts of oil in each plug hole & turned it over as you suggested (with the plug still out). The compression on the Left bank was close to 50PSI on each cylinder. The right bank did come up to 45-48 . I then inserted the plugs but still will no start The car would run for a second then die. I took the plugs back out to make sure they weren't wet with oil & re installed them. The plugs were dry, I tried starting it several times & as I mentioned it would
start for about 2 seconds then die.
Regards
Bruce W
Well Bruce, that's a result, sort of! The fact that the oil has raised the compression but nowhere near factory specs means you have a serious problem with the rings at least, I suggest they are completely worn out, a relatively easy job to replace but first check your points to ensure the contacts are actually opening on every cam lobe. I have seen worn distributor shafts cause the number one position to open but several of the other lobes will not. As you have now seen a couple of combustion's taking place I think she would go with a tow, not that it would help you much as it would need it every time.
I don't honestly think your going to get a result with those compressions. My 38 had compressions 50 to 70 PSI, it would start but was down on power, new rings produced 120 PSI and the difference was amazing. Good luck
Steve, Thank you so much for your help, I have to admit I was hoping for an easy fix but my gut told me that never happens with old cars.
Thanks again
Bruce W
Art does have a valid point here Bruce but your first post stated the gas flow was good and I was assuming you had already done the fundamental first test for an engine that wont fire and that's remove the air cleaner, look down the carb venturi while you open the throttle and watch for the twin jets of fuel squirt down its throat from the pump jet?? Even if your main jets were blocked and you only had the accelerator pump all cylinders should run if you kept pumping it.
It might not have been the first thing we looked for but I have checked several times to make sure that the carb was getting fuel. When checking it seems to be operating normally. I just can't believe my test on the compression showing so poorly. I am going to re do the oil squirting again & will use a different compression tester to make sure that it is correct. When I last drove the car I took it for a five mile run and was on a highway at 55 miles per hour for the last mile & it ran very well. It was parked for 4 weeks and hasn't started since. As I mentioned before I knew the engine was somewhat tired but there was no sign of exhaust smoke only if I had coasted down a hill then stepped on it I would see some blue smoke. I will follow up after my second compression test.
I apprerciate all the help, thank you,
Bruce W
Art,
I thank you for that heads up on the fuel system, as well as another compression test I will be checking the fuel lines as well as the fuel pump pressure and capacity. If all that fails I would then look at getting the carb rebuilt if that's what it takes.
regards
Bruce W
Bruce,
The reason your engine will not start is that 50psi is not enough compression. Realistically there are only three things that can cause that on all cylinders: 1) all of the valves failed at once when you shut off the engine - not likely; 2) all of the rings or cylinders are extremely worn - not likely or you would have left a smoke screen of James Bond proportions whenever the engine ran prior to the no start; 3) the timing chain slipped. this is the most likely and actually happened to me with a 346. I drove the car into the garage, shut it off and just like that - no start. In spite of what some have surmised, there is plenty of room within the front cover for the chain to jump without hitting the cover. I have overhauled several of these engines, and for what it is worth, you need a new chain and gear set. Based on your description of blue smoke on acceleration, there is no doubt that there is some ring/cylinder wear and a complete overhaul is justified and undoubtedly the best choice, but if you just want to get the engine running, pull the front cover and put in a new chain and gears and restore proper valve timing.
I re did the compression test with a new Tester. I first squirted 4 good pumps from my oil can in each cylinder---- turned the engine over 4to 5 times and did the compression test as follows
cyl No 1 78 No 3 72 No 5 72 No 7 62 ----- Right bank-- No 2 70 No4 69 N0 6 70 No 8 72, this is far from perfect but is more in keeping with the 76,000 miles on the car. I attempted to try to start the car but would run for 1 0r 2 seconds and die. I tested the fuel pump pressure at cranking speed and it was 3lbs & held. The pressure should be around 41/2 lbs but I don't think that should stop it from starting. I disconnected the lines between the pump & the Carb and it was clean with no particles of dirt showing up I have a filter between the tank and the pump which I checked & a couple of specs of sediment showed up.
Regards
Bruce W
I am also stumped, Steve has mentioned to check to make sure that the contacts in the distributor are all opening on each lobe. If anyone else has got any advice I would certainly welcome it!
Bruce W
Bruce: Even though it looks from your compression reading that your engine needs rebuilding, it still should run, poorly but still run. You said it runs for a second or so and then stops. Sounds like fuel starvation. Since you have tried about everything, you might see if your carb has a plugged filter. Remove the inlet fuel fitting from the back of your carb( picture below) and check to see if you have a plugged filter. This filter can only be seen when the fitting is removed. This is a filter that was installed by the carb maker when it was new. If you have a filter and it is plugged then maybe that is your problem. If not then that is one theory that can be checked off. Bill
Bill,
On my 48 the Carter carb has a fine screen filter which I have checked and it is clean, but you are correct when you talk about fuel starvation as that's what it feels like. If I look down the barrel of the carb & pump the throttle there is a nice spray of gas which looks normal to me. I thank you for your interest
Bruce W
While your checking fuel delivery try the pick up tube in the tank. You can disconnect the fuel line at the pump and blow toward the tank. You should be able to determine if there is a restriction and if not the tank will bubble. Sounds like it is totally frustrating to have checked most everything and still not able to start it. Good Luck. Harry
I would like to thank everyone that had input into my no start problem-- after testing every idea it still not starting.
Regards
Bruce W
stuck valves-- blame it on the EPA gas we have to use---
Lots of good advice so far.
My suggestion... give it a good HOT start with a 12 volt jump.
And, maybe a little starting fluid. What do you have to lose at this point?
HTH, Bob
Art, Thanks for your reply, The timing chain has come up a few times. Can it still be a problem with the timing chain if the #1 plug lines up with mark on the damper ( a/g) as well as the rotor lining up with no. 1 plug wire.
Regards
Bruce W
I had a similar problem with a ford flat bed with an inline 6. One of the guys was using it for a while, fueled it up and continued to use for several hours before he shut it down. The next day it would not start. I checked everything. After about a month of working on it on and off I was talking to the guy that used it. He pointed out the barrel he fueled the truck from. It was diesel. He put diesel fuel in a gas truck. It ran fine while it was hot, but would not fire a shot cold.
Could there be some problem with the gas on Bruce’s car?
Bruce:
I'm following this discussion for awhile. Electrical system, fuel system, chain out the sprocket etc. Seems to me that your carburetor does not allow air to continue the engine cycle after the initial start. The choke valve (flap) does not completely close in a cold start and has to have a clearance.
I don't know what type of carburetor your car has but if is the Stromberg the clearance between the upper edge of the choke valve (flap) an inner wall of the air horn should be 11/64 of an inch.
If it is a Carter, the clearance should be 3/16 of an inch.
After the initial cold "crank", the pipe from the automatic choke will take care of opening the flap and make sure that this pipe is well connected to the exhaust manifold.
Check also the automatic choke for a weak spring, defective vacuum plunger etc.
The thing that baffles me is that I have no suction thru the carb which obviously is not going to distribute gas to the cylinders to allow it to start for more than 1 or 2 seconds and then die.
Bruce W.
Art , thanks for your continuing interest. I had this car stored in apt garage & would start it up & run at least 2 to 3 times a month more often in the spring & summer when our club has all their events. Now closer to time I started having problems,
Jan of 2013 ---- The car started just fine I drove it for approx. 5 miles on the highway with the last mile at 55 MPH. I parked it back in the apt garage with no problem & turned it off with no shuttering or noise. After we returned from a 5 week holiday I went down to take it for a run & it would not start. After finding there was no suction thru the carb it was time to have a tow truck bring it to the house. After putting new points, rotor, plugs, condenser in it showed no difference. It will start for 1 to 2 seconds and die.
As mentioned in some of the past notes on the forum ,the No 1 cylinder on the compression stroke does line up with the mark on the damper(A/G) as well as the rotor is pointed to No 1 plug wire in the distributor.
Now , many people keep pointing at the timing chain, I have trouble thinking it somehow has jumped a notch when all the
timing as mentioned above seems OK.
Regards Bruce W
Art,
The fuel pump bowl is full, it has been cleaned, no filter has been added. I took off the line at the carb coming from the fuel pump & cranked the engine over and lots of gas was pumping out. I have taken out the screw on the side of the carb & the fuel is just below the level of the threads where the screw fits in. According to the specs this is the correct level.
Regards
Bruce W
Here's a long shot Bruce. I parked my '48 in the corner of the garage a few years ago for the winter. During that time mice went up the tail pipe with all of their bedding and food and filled the exhaust manifold. Fortunately, my next task on the car was to take the engine out and rebuild. With all you have checked and all of the suggestions there's not much left. Harry
There have been many articles in this forum about the modern gasoline. Without zinc cam lobes wear more than they normally do. With worn cam lobes there would be some of the problems you have and that along with lifter failure would account for the engine only running a short time. I remember a perplexing problem with a car that started and then failed and it turned out to be heat expansion in the valve train keeping the valves open just a little bit as it warmed up the longitudinal expansion in the valve stems killed the ability to intake fuel gas mixture and then killed the combustion stroke also. It did not take very long to occur as the valve stems are receving a lot of heat during combustion. It started again when it coole ddown a little and continued the cycle.
Art,
Thanks once again, I have checked the wiring circuit & as far as I can determine every thing is ok there. Because of the 0 suction thru the carb I am wondering if it could be valve timing problem or stuck or broken valve or valves. Another thought would a blown head gasket cause this kind of problem.
Regards
Bruce W
Thanks Art,
I appreciate you suggestions & have learned by everyones input & so far have learned what it isn't but not what it is. This is a good process to hopefully eliminate an expensive job if it isn't required. It does look more & more that I will have to get into the rings & valves & see what's going on with the help of others as I am not a mechanic. Lots of fun???
Regards
Bruce W.
I keep engines running by using starting fluid or carbuerator cleaner (Which burns like gas)in a spray can.
If they continue to run on this mixture there is a fuel delivery issue, but if not there is an electrical or valve or other mechanical issue issue.
May sound stupid, BUT, keep your face away when pouring gas or fluid down the carb!!!!! Glasses and gloves could not hurt.
Richard, your caution is very valid. Not only that, but by all means have a fire extinguisher there! The only way I'll pour fuel down a carburetor and then start it is with the air filter firmly attached.
Thanks for your input in reference to trying to get this car started. Looking down the throat of the car I can clearly see that fuel is coming into the carb when pumping the gas,so by starting the car for the 2 seconds it runs & pumping the gas should result in the same thing as adding gas into the carb by other means.
Regards
Bruce W
Yep, Gas these days has alcohol -- Allows for Phase Separation to occur, especially in certain climate conditions. Since our old cars have vented gas tanks and sit for long periods, moisture condenses in the tank and drops into the gas attaching to the alcohol molecules causing the alcohol to drop out to the bottom of tank, then gets pumped into the fuel system rusting and rotting fuel lines, hoses and inside of the carb.
IF the engine is ran much with this gunk feeding the internal parts, the first thing to get contamination are the valve stems. This stuff make them stick like glue.
The 346 being a flathead, the valve stems do not get much lubrication (dont need much) so they are not "cleaned" while being lubricated. HOWEVER, the valve guides can be quite worn and still not be a "problem" with a decent running engine, the engine will not have smoke due to worn guides...
Now-- just to get a few things OFF THE CHECK LIST -- The 346 timing ear and chain is a HUGE Heavy Duty set of parts.. NO way this is the problem. All you guys that have not seen how beefy these are I can post photos, or take a look in the shop manual. NEXT, it will run for a few seconds then quit-- OK-- we have an engine that will run--- Just wont keep running--- BACK TO the fuel delivery situation--- Third, it ran and drove at 55 just a short time ago---- AGAIN-- Back to the fuel delivery situation.
Here is a photo of the 346 I just completed. It is heading for Germany tomorrow by AIR.. Needs to be in a car in time for the Netherlands Meeting. I am just now measuring up the bracing for the trip.
Next, I go back in the shop to finish building another 346 for a 48 series 61.
I have been following all the posts about your problem & have come to only 1 possible answer. The post about your exhaust system being plugged up is the only solution to your problem that makes sense. If your exhaust is plugged the engine would not be able to suck any air if it could not get rid of any. This would give you low compression & allow the engine to run for only a few seconds. The easy way to check this would be to disconnect the exhaust from the manifold at the front of the engine and see if it runs. Years ago when I was a young man!!! we would plug up the tail pipe on a friends car with a potato & it would cause the same problem. After a few tries the potato would fly out like a bullet & scare everyone to death. Sometimes on a old muffler the baffle would come loose and would plug up the exhaust.
Lots of luck!! Lee DeVol
there ya go------- problem solved -- squirrels and rats up the pipe
I was hoping that the exhaust plugged up was the problem, but after disconnecting the exhaust from the manifold there was no change, it would run for a second or two & die. I did take a manifold vacuum reading yesterday & it was 0. After reading some articles it was said " if the reading is below 3 the car won't start" Well they were right about that.
Bruce W
Bruce,
I hate to see a man in pain..
My last 2 suggestions. 1 or 2 seconds is not running.
Jump it with 12 volts as I suggested before.
Run your hot wire directly from the battery to the coil.
HTH, Bob
Art,
Thanks for your suggestions,
I checked every possible connection on the wiring including the ignition, starter button, coil, ammeter engine to ground. It appears the wiring is all original & in average to good shape. So I am back to square one. but on the positive side after all the testing I know what it isn't.
Regards
Bruce W
How well have you checked the wiring inside the distributor? Mainly I am referring too the short ground wire that goes from the breaker plate and fastens under the screw securing the distributor cap hold down clip. If the connections are bad or the wire is bad, the ground might be just be good enough to start the car and once started even for a brief time like you say, the engine stops because engine vibration could open that ground and kill the engine. I would also check the lead wire from the points to the side terminal of the distributor. I once had a 41 that every time I would start the car and back it out of the driveway, the engine would stop. I changed just about everything I could and it still did the same thing. Finally I started with the ignition switch and checked all wiring back to the battery. Everything checked out OK until I got to the battery. I checked the ground cable and it was loose as I had, prior to all the problems, put in a new battery and never tightened the negative ground cable. Makes one rather humble. Bill
Bill,
Thanks for your information, I will check those items, the distributor was rebuilt so should be OK but will double check it. The ground wires etc have been checked . Will keep trying.
Regards
Bruce W
As I have tried almost everything to start this car, without any luck, I thought I would take of the Carb and check the suction in the intake manifold. I had someone turn over the engine while I held my hand over the empty carb plate. The suction was very strong. I put the carb back on & hooked everything back up & no suction thru the carb? I tried it with the throttle wide open as well as closed & still no suction. ??
Bruce W
Bruce
To me the test with the carb off is revealing. It sounds as if you either have a massive vacuum leak, or the throttle butterfly's are not opening. I am assuming you have verified the butterfly's opening when the throttle is operated. If no, please check that. A vacuum leak that major has to be a split hose, a ruptured diaphragm in the vacuum pump, or similar major failure in the vacuum advance, washer or wiper circuits. Try plugging all vacuum ports on the carb and manifold. To me, a split diaphragm in the vacuum pump would be the biggest leak.
Hope this helps
Paul
Thanks Paul & Art I will check the Vac pump the butterfly valves appear OK.
Bruce W
Bruce, please read again my previous post (Lack of air). Just poking your finger on the butterfly choker is not going to tell that it works as they always flip due to its spring and when "cold", it should have a space between the flap and the carburetor wall. I doubt about vacuum leak at the fuel pump because if you had this problem, the engine always start but with a rough idling.
Send your carburetor to an expert rebuilder and make sure upon its installation that the choke tube is well placed into the exhaust manifold oven
Worked on a 31 Chrysler many years ago that would try to start but couldn't, turned out the owner had assembles the carb directly to the manifold with no insulator or gaskets ever, over the years of tightening the flanges had become warped with a good 60 thou clearance in the center, he was adamant that wouldn't make that difference but after I ground a good surface on the base of the carb and fitted some good gaskets she fired up! It would have to be a bigger vacuum leak than the diaphragms to stop it starting.
I think your going for a record with this length of post Bruce ;D.
Sounds like you are so close to the end of your search for the problem!
I have been following this post since it's start and I am happy that it "appears" to be close to the end. I am also glad for you and the possible end to the frustration you have been through.
Richard
Steve, I am overwhelmed with the responses from the forum & very appreciative of the interest shown. I certainly wasn't going for a record, but it is such a puzzle that it appeared to have got a lot of interest. Again thank you for your response. I will test the vacuum at the wiper end of the connection from the pump. I am sure with turning the engine over there it should create enough vacuum to show if the pump diaphragm is ok.
Bruce
Art,
Thanks for your response and kind gesture in reference to the Carb. The model No. on the carb is 595SA Carter and on the 48 it has the vacuum advance.
Bruce Watson
Art,
As mentioned in the last post The model No of the Carb that is now on the car is 595SA Carter The Stromberg Model that was also used in 1948 was AAV26 380154 Both Carbs were 1 1/4 Dual Downdraft. My car is a 1948 series 61 Cadillac.
Regards
Bruce Watson
I apologize for having nothing to add to help you. I have been following this thread and must say that I have learned a lot. I do hope you get this running soon. I am cheering for you.
Art,
Message sent advise that you rec'vd my info,
Regards
Bruce Watson
Joe,
Besides having so much advice from so many people now I have a cheering section!! The response is overwhelming,
Thanks
B. Watson
Art,
I got the UPS notice of shipping,
Thanks again,
Bruce Watson
I am hoping for the best for you!!!!!!!
Richard
Got my fingers crossed. Harry
Thanks Harry & Richard, this has been a slow process but I hope it has paid off.
B. Watson
Waiting semi-patiently for a resolution to this.
Waiting here, too.
Art,
I put on your Stromberg Carb & unfortunately it made no difference, the car would not start.
Bruce Watson
OK, I am back---- Bruce, have you tried to keep it running by using carb cleaner spray? Small shot, start it give it small continuing shots to keep it running.. Have you done this? I think all of us would like to know if it will KEEP RUNNING with continued small shots of carb clean.
Need to know the answer to this one question first... then we go from there. Yes, I have other questions,, but one thing at a time.
Disappointed here, not as much as you, but I was hoping that was the problem.
if you have seen the size of the timing chain in in the 346, you will dismiss this as the problem.
to check for a worn chain, you only need to remove the dist cap. . see where the dist rotor is pointing.. turn the engine slow ONE direction until you see the rotor move make a reference mark on the crank pulley and timing pointer.... then turn the engine back the opposite direction... UNTIL you see the rotor jut begin to move.. STOP and look at your mark on the crank pulley--- HOW MUCH did the crank pulley reference mark move from your first mark? if it moved away 1/2 inch or so--- the chain has wear, but not enough to jump.. it must move 2 inches or so to be able to jump.
so--- back to my last post-------- WILL IT CONTINUE TO RUN WITH A SMALL SHOT OF CARB CLEAN TO KEEP IT RUNNING?
Rod,
I agree with you on the timing chain. I have not tried the carb cleaner , will get at that.
Thanks
Bruce W
Hi Bruce,
I too have been watching this thread from the beginning racking my brain for ideas. You said in your first entry that you had spark and a new distributor cap. Is there a chance the spark plug wires might be improperly placed at the cap? Are you getting spark at the plugs? Sometimes the obvious stuff is the easiest to overlook.
Randy
I have been watching this and feel I must contribute.
I somewhat agree with 49er.
If the engine quits when you release the starter button, you may have an electrical problem.
But not at the generator or regulator. The problem will be at the ignition switch.
That would also explain the change after sitting for a long period. Contacts in the switch may have become stuck or corroded.
The wire in the armored case is know to short.
If not already tried you can test by running a hot wire from the battery to the distributor and eliminate the switch and wire.
The charging system parts only maintain the battery and the engine should run for a very long time on battery alone.
I know there is a great deal of discussion about "no suction at the carburetor" . You will need to disconnect and plug all the vacuum lines to get an accurate test.
There is a lot of places a carb can suck air from.
Good Luck!!
Fred P.
OK-- Here we go--- Seems like we asked if a "hot-wire" test had been done... A jumper wire from the coil to battery to see if it would continue running... Anyone remember if this was done? I am trying to keep it simple, not yet ready to talk about any other factor--- just keep in mind it ran and drove into the garage...
Rod,
I have tried the carb cleaner as per your suggestion, but it didn't seem to make any difference. I also want to try "the hot wire routine" but I am auto electrical challenged! To go from the coil to the battery--- would I disconnect the wire that is coming from the Ignition switch to the coil--- then run a connection from the coil to the Positive side of the battery? The battery is Neg ground. Obviously this is by passing the ignition switch so it should try to start by touching the wire to the battery???
Regards
Bruce W
OK-- This is a bit complicated because the original coil has a protected power side.. I use the word"power" because the 37 to 48 cars use positive ground, making the "hot" side of the coil the - "negative" side. NOW that said, on original cars the POWER side of the coil goes through the firewall and works its way to the ignition switch. So, a quick "hot-wire" test is not so easy to do on an original car...
IDEA that makes is a little easier here--- what I would like to know next is ------ what happens if you put a test light on the + side of the coil? with the key on? the test lamp should have either a dim or bright glow, depending on if the points are open or closed when you make the test... NEXT---- If you have someone crank the engine while the test lamp is still connected-- what does the light do?
Can we just work with this for a while before continuing?
Rod
Rod,
With the test light on the + side of the coil--ign on, the light is semi bright, I am just waiting for my wife to come up to crank the engine over will get back to you.
Bruce W
OK--- That is what I expected. Lets see what happens next... One thing, right now without doing anything at all other than a few pumps of the accelerator, exactly what happens when you crank it, trying to get it started?
Rod,
With the test light on+side of the coil & cranking the engine over the light dims somewhat& flickers a .bit.
Bruce W
That is what it should do-- So-- OK so far GOOD --- NOW some lets back up a bit and do some things that have been done in the past..
Exactly what happens right now when you crank to start?
Rod,
When I crank it over it actually starts but, only for a second or two & then dies.
Bruce W
OK-- -Hold on for a minute--- I am going to look at one of my cars-----
OK-- if you do this again with the test light in place. does the light stay on? can you count to 3 before it dies?
I dont know what test equipment you have so I am trying to keep it simple..... Do you have a volt meter?
Yes the light will stay on to count of 4-- No I don't have a voltmeter just the test light.
Bruce W
OK-- Light stays on- engine runs - you count to four -- engine dies at the count of four?
the engine was cranked over with the light on test for 4 seconds but the car only ran for 2 seconds,
Bruce W
OK-- Let's go over this:
you have spark and the coil seems to continue to work-- the test light working indicates the points are working.. we still can not eliminate the point plate issue these distributors have--- but spark is probably not the problem---
You have enough fuel to make it run EVERY time you crank it....
I runs for 2 seconds EVERY TIME?
It will not continue to run if you spray a mist of carb-cleaner directly into the carb------ (Kind of dangerous)
Rod
I would have to say yes to all your statements.
Bruce W
Rod,
After looking at your statements again, the engine always starts the first time I try to start it after that it will just crank over. If its left for 1/2 hour or so it will start for that 2 second period.
Bruce W
Bruce: Hopefully Rod will find your problem so what I say next I hope you will not need to use. If a car starts and then stops, the first thing I would suspect is a fuel problem. I think from what I have read about what you have looked at on fuel and fuel delivery, fuel starvation is not the problem. So what is left is electrical and Rod I believe is working that problem. If it was my car I would pull the distributor out of the car and check wiring. I believe some place in these 7 pages you said the distributor had been rebuilt and I think you said wiring appeared to be OK. Pop the distributor cap and check the grounding wire as well as the wire from the points to the terminal on the side of the distributor. Are the wires secured inside their connectors and the wires in good shape? Is the surface under distributor ground wire clean.? If all is OK with wiring and ground -then look at your points. Make sure the point cap is between .0125-.0175. I have been on a couple of tours with several flat head Cadillacs. One just stop running going down an interstate. What we found was the points were not tight and they bounced open to way above .0175. The other flat head was somewhat like yours, started to run and then stop. Same thing was found- points were way out of tolerance. Bill
OK-- I am back in... YES Distributor can be it-- I was just trying to figure out how to have Bruce check his... I have to think about what happens when the car starts.. If it is at slow idle and NO vacuum signal to the vacuum advance, then the point plate does not move, but IF the plate moves and IF the guides are worn ( a known problem with these distributors) THEN the points can go all overt he place if the plate moves off of the correct rotation. AND YES, those guide COULD have just finally gave up while sitting.
We know the point are working fin when cranking-- BUT after it starts-- we loose it real soon... Just about when the advance COULD begin to pull in...
Hmm--- Bruce can you take the cap off and look inside at the guides? Look at my photo, I have the red pointer on one of them (yes it is a spray tube from a carb-clean can) all three need to be in place and the points set by the book.. I like to set them at .016 tight.
So-- if we no suspect the vacuum advance is pulling the plate off-center-- disconnect it... See what happens..
Bruce, After the 2 second period you say it will NOT start again until you let it sit for 20 minutes? Hmm-- OK--- So did you tell me that the test light STILL was on and did it flicker at all after the first 2- second burst? Was there still a light at all after the 2- second burst?
IF SO--- I need to know IF there was any spark at the plugs after the 2- second burst and the 20 minute no-start status...
Seems like we may be close to eliminating the LOW VOLTAGE side of the coil-- we may be going to the high voltage side now..
If available I would get a 12V timing light wired to a battery pack or battery and check each wire for spark and continued spark as Rod suggests. You may be losing spark through the distributor or cap. I'm not sure how the condenser plays into this but I have had situations where they went bad after the last run and also be bad out of the box preventing the car fromo starting. Just for drill I would replace the condenser maybe with one from a running car. I think and hope you are getting to an AH Ha! moment. Harry
Harry, good thought--- Bruce, I agree---
Rod I have tried starting the engine with the Vacuum advance disconnected but that didn't change anything. The points are set at.017
The test light was on as long as I was cranking the engine. The light didn't appear to change within the 4 second cycle of starting and just cranking.
Bruce W
Hm-- OK well, can you see the point contact condition? Nice and smooth, grayish color.. If so, I think the condenser is OK--- Easy enough to change it and see.... May as well do it just to get that eliminated. Next culprit will be the coil.. Usually they will heat up then quit.. Seems like there is not enough time for that to happen. AND coils work when the low-voltage field collapses with the point action--- No real magic there---
OK--- So have you done this: Do the start routine so it runs and stops, then pull the coil wire OUT of the distributor and hold it close to some metal point on the engine and have your helper crank the engine to see if there is any spark from the coil wire.
So that is how we do the coil test. need to know if there is loss of spark that causes it to die and then you have the 20 minute wait before you get fire again.
All we are doing now is testing the condenser and the coil.. Nothing else..
Had to go out-- Will try the coil test in the AM & get back.
Bruce W
WOW! Rod gave us a troubleshooting step by step in the ignition system. Along his line of thinking, I would check if the breaker plate is rotating freely.
According to Bruce, with the carburetor on the car...no vacuum, but without it there is vacuum and for this reason, I still think that the engine lacks air intake due to the carburetor butterfly being completely closed when cold as it has to have a space for the initial cranking. From there on, the automatic choker will open it completely via the choke tube end installed in the exhaust oven opening.
Rod,
I tested the coil as you suggested & there appears to be a very strong spark.
Bruce W
Archembobo:
He did not write about a different supplied carburetor.
Bruce ... as a follow up to Art's suggestion attached are a couple of photos of the carb spacer he is talking about. This one happens to be 1/2 inch thick. As I recall the one that I replaced on my 39 motor was 3/8 inch thick, but, I could not find a new one in that size so I used the 1/2 inch which did not seem to affect the way it runs.
I am far from an expert on the reason for the spacer, but, I believe it has to do with insulating the carb from heat.
Here is the link to the folks that supplied me with the new spacer. I didn't see a listing for our carb anymore, but, perhaps if you contact them they can help you out if you need one.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Stromberg-WW-Small-Rochester-2G-Holley-Carb-Spacer-Phenolic-Insulator-Riser-1-2-/261250518220?pt=Vintage_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr&hash=item3cd3be8ccc
Hope this helps.
Bob Schwartz
Yes the fibre 1/2 spacer is there and has never been removed along with the carb gasket.
Thanks you
Bruce w
I would imagine the spacer is to insulate the carburetor from some of the heat in the block. Excessive heat in the carburetor would cause premature evaporation of the gas and in the expanded state not enough gas would get through the needle valves to keep the car running which is a condition we call "vapor lock" The flat head carburetor is 3/4 surrounded by hot exhaust piping making it easier to have vapor lock.
Hello. Did you get the car to start or is there still problems? I have been folowing this Whit great interest. J Aspen
To-day was victory day! With the help of a buddy from our car club the 48 is up and running, very well I might say. It appears that the problem was not discovered early on because we were working in an underground storage area, with poor lighting & had dismissed the timing chain as a problem. Once it was finally towed home and we were to go thru all the other possibilities, we at that stage found out all the things that were not the problem. We then re looked at the timing and decided that we would take off the timing chain cover. We found that the timing chain was extremely loose & had jumped two notches. After ordering a new timing chain gears & an oil seal & with the steady hand of my friend it was re & re. Once we got the car running it was timed & some adjustment to the carb it is now ready for the road.
I would like to thank so many people for their input & interest, especially Art, Rod & Steve
Thanks very much (until my next problem!!)
Bruce Watson
WONDERFUL! I am proud to be the first person to congratulate you after all this time. The members who cried timing chain and were shot down can gloat in their glory. I was simply a spectator watching, reading and learning.
It must feel really good.
glad you got it running,,, way back on page #1 Leroy and I both said pull the timeing case cover, but was shot down...glad its running ...... Gene..
Whew,
Glad you got her running.
Randy
Thanks for your remarks & one always needs a cheering section, I learned a tremendous amount about what to look for if something like this ever happens again. I couldn`t believe how loose the chain was & there was no noise or rattling. I suppose over a period of years each of the links in the chain wear to loosen up the chain. It was explained to me that when the engine is turned off & the engine is in the middle of a stroke it could be like a sudden stop & with a loose chain just enough force to have the chain slip. Even though the gears looked ok at first glance, after cleaning them up the crank gear was worn on the edges & so was the cam gears, so these were all replaced.
Many thanks
Bruce
Bruce,
I am so glad things finally worked out for you! As a pat on the back to myself, I GUESSED than was the problem with the 3rd reply on page 1.
Is there a prize to the winner? JUST JOKING and really happy that you found an end to such a long running problem. All the work and testing you did must have taken 40-80 hours?
Regards, Richard
Yes Richard, you deserve a prize.
What I don't understand was...with the carburetor installed...no vacuum. Without...vacuum was present. Could someone in this forum explain the reason?
Congratulations in resolving the problem!
Tito,
My guess is that slack in the timing chain allowed the cam action to fluctuate depending on other factors like vacuum. Getting a little air movement with no air resistance is a different than condition than when resistance to air movement is present.
This is a WAG (W A-- Guess) rather than a SWAG the S meaning Scientific WAG.
Tito; When the timing chain jumps the pistons & valves are in the wrong position causing low compression & low air flow. With the carburetor installed the butterfly valves restrict the air flow causing minimum vacuum at the top of the carburetor. When I was in the Air Force I was stationed on Okinawa and owned a 47 Cadillac (the only Cadillac on the island) & the same thing happened to me. I had been a auto mechanic before entering the Air Force & had experience in this & was able to find the problem quickly.
Lee DeVol
So glad you have it running now! I want to thank you Bruce and everyone who tried to help because as a newbie here this has been a great learning experience. all the questions and answers will definitly help me when i go back with my 346. Congrats again Bruce. Casey
Thanks Gary and LeRoy for your explanation...makes sense.
Just looking at Gary's cars, I noticed that he has a very rare '37 Lanchester...is that an Eleven or a Fourteen....Daimler?
Hi! Its good that none of us stop learning, it was a small cost and a large learning curve, over what seemed forever, I can't tell you how nice it was to hear that 346 come alive again. I also can't believe the support over the many months of trial & error.
Thanks again all,
Bruce Watson
For all of you that may have this problem with the engine not starting after it running good at the last time before shutting off. Take a compression test & if all the cylinders have low readings of 40 or 50 lbs. then the timing chain is the problem. If 5 or 6 of the cylinders are reading about 100 & the remaining cylinders are reading lower (perhaps in the 50 or 60 range) the problem is going to be bad valves. After the car sitting for sometime the problem is useable fuel related.
Lee DeVol
Tito,
The Lanchester is a 14 HP Roadrunner deluxe. It is in the Daimler family the same as Cadillac is in the Chevrolet family. Lanchester was the first car made in England and was the premier limousine until 1932 when financial problems brought them and Daimler into the BSA group. and they used the Lanchester name to sell high quality mid sized cars until the 1950's when the marque was retired sort of like the LaSalle marque was retired. I am surprised that someone in this forum knows what Lanchester is as the Marque is gone. It makes me wonder how many know the Triumph 1800 roadster also??
As you can see by my garage inventory I sort of like the unusual. My friends say it is a sickness, I once owned 27 motorcycles including 7 of the 1976 Goldwing Limited Editions (2000 produced)
Gary.
For the last 10 years, occasionally, I have gone to Amelia Concours D'Elegance and at one of those times I saw a Lanchester. I'm very interested in the '30s and '40s cars.
I googled the Triumph 1.800 Roadster and was impressed by the retractable rear windshield a la 4 door Dual Cowl Phaeton...very pretty car.
Its easy to gloat when ones diagnosis is correct and others are wrong but responces here are bases on the imformation given and in thread 126 it clearly states the top dead timing Mark on this engine lined up perfectly with the rotor pointing to number one cylinder. As the camshaft directly drives the disributor this cannot be the situation if the timing chain had jumped two teeth, this would upset the valve and ignition timing so clearly the imformation given was at fault. Its very difficult to evaluate anything without being on the spot to see for ones self.,
Nothing beats eyes on the problem. In my computer service business, I have learned this lesson over and over again.
Quote from: S Passmore on October 15, 2013, 08:23:08 PM
Its easy to gloat when ones diagnosis is correct and others are wrong but responces here are bases on the imformation given and in thread 126 it clearly states the top dead timing Mark on this engine lined up perfectly with the rotor pointing to number one cylinder. As the camshaft directly drives the disributor this cannot be the situation if the timing chain had jumped two teeth, this would upset the valve and ignition timing so clearly the imformation given was at fault. Its very difficult to evaluate anything without being on the spot to see for ones self.,
So true Joe, but the experience and ideas that come in this forum are a close second to eyes on the ground.
We can get expert and sometimes not so expert advice, but still worth trying here. This 9 pages of response is unusual and it is ironic that one of the first answers had the solution when it came to the end.
I am truly stumped when I open the hood of my modern car and truck but under the hood of earlier cars I can usually isolate the problem pretty early in the search. The new cars are superior in most ways but they are so complicated that they will never survive to become classics.
I got my drivers license in 1956 and most of the cars I drove for many years are now classics. These cars are too complicated to keep them running through the years after they are no longer new and are being scrapped.