-BRAKE LINES THAT RUST AND CARS YOU CAN'T TRUST...
~18 months ago I bought a beautiful 1999 Eldorado Touring Coupe from a lifelong friend. Before I even begin, let me just say that when you buy a used car from a friend, you need to understand that they are only responsible for the condition of the car on THAT day, and if you will have any hard feelings if things go wrong, you should never buy a car from a friend.
Luckily, I am able to separate the problems that I have had with the car from my friendship and hold no ill will towards my friend. I drive a Dodge mini-van for work, so I only needed this car for when I go out at night or on the weekends.
I bought this beautiful, dealer maintained car in November of 2011 and it had 99,900 miles on it. The compressor was a little noisy but the air worked fine. I can accept what happened next because it can happen to any car. In the next few months I had to replace the compressor (expected) and the alternator. I also tuned the car up with new AC platinum plugs and wires.
Shortly after it started to overheat, so I had to have headgaskets done. I posted previously about the great deal I got and the great work that was done by a Cadillac mechanic who has his own shop in Limerick PA and specializes in Northstar engine work. He did the heads, inserts, and resealed the block as a precaution to prevent the eventual oil leaks that these engines always develop. the cracked surge tank and leaking radiator were also replaced before the head gasket problem was diagnosed.
Shortly after that, the car started to go into this crazy high idle mode and became impossible to drive due to this being so unpredictable. I replaced both sensors on the throttle body that control idle, and that problem was solved.
So the car was trouble-free for a few months. About 3 weeks ago I went to use the car and the brake pedal went right to the floor. I discovered that the rear brake line had rusted through and fluid was streaming out all over the driveway.
I look at the car on my lift and thought about fixing it myself, but it would be a dirty, messy knuckle busting job, and I might not be able to do it correctly.
I am picking up the car this afternoon, all done, by the same mechanic that did the engine work.
The cost at a dealer would exceed $3000.00. I know this because a few years ago I sold a beautiful 94 Seville for parts due to the same problem. It came from NY State and they salt the roads heavily in the winter.
My bill for this recent work is a reasonable $950.00 which breaks down to 10 hours @ $55.00 (he tells me he probably spent 3-4 more hours but is only charging for 10) and $70.00 for new brake line and fluid. The rest is to drop the fuel tank and install a new sensor which was displaying erratically when below 1/4 tank and could not be trusted. He says the new gas erodes the parts in the tank and he has replaced a lot of these sensors in the past few years.
I am OK With all of these repairs except for rotted brake lines. For a few cents more per car they could have used a rust resistant material and as much as I support American cars, and love all of my Cadillacs, after the HT4100 thing, all of the Northstar Head failures and horrible oil leaks, and the epidemic of rotted brake lines and fuel lines, they deserve to be in the shape they are in.
The Japanese luxury cars and the German luxury cars do not have problems like this and I am ashamed of GM and they should be extremely grateful that people are buying their cars.
I realize that they don't car about people driving outdated cars that are 14 years old, but there are a LOT of us out there.
What do you think?
Brian
I think you are dead on. I have no desire to own ANY car built after the mid-70s. I too have been through diesel and 4100 ownership and stories like yours continue.
Personally I feel the brining of the roads, done prior to a snowstorm greatly exacerbated the problem of rotted brake/fuel lines and for whatever it's worth, I haven't particularly noticed foreign cars to be any less affected by this practice.
The brining accomplishes absolutely nothing by way of safety, while resulting in unnecessary and costly repairs to vehicles, the environment (by way of salt dust everywhere and in the air we breathe) - all at the expense of Mr & Mrs John Q Taxpayer. Most of the substance (which I call "battery acid") doesn't even remain on the road to fulfill its ostensible purpose; most of it is immediately lapped up by tires and sprayed- you guessed it- all over the cars' underbellies where it attacks all kinds of critical systems.
I live in a state (Colorado) that uses magnesium chloride instead of salt on the roads, so I don't have the rust problems you describe.
I sympathize with what Brian says about the fuel gauge sensor, as mine goes all over the place just like he describes. I've gone to resetting the trip odometer and gallons used indicator when I fill up with gas, as those can be trusted more than the needle on the dash. The Cadillac dealer has serviced my car since I bought it in 2005 with 45,000 miles. It now has 103,500 miles and has had no major repair bills (over $2,000).
I love my 2001 Eldorado ESC. Only two things I don't like are the lousy speakers (not a Bose system) and the cramped back seat, but otherwise, the car turns heads.
Tim
The best part of all is that during the actual snow removal, the roads are treated yet again- with salt. So that makes for a double dose of salt contamination to vehicle undercarriages. And on a number of times each year, the brine is applied - simply in response to a weather prediction that turned out to be erroneous. So there's another needless subjecting of corrosive material that need not have occurred in the first place.
In short, it is one of the most idiotic wastes of public money I've ever seen.
Why there hasn't been a public outcry over this practice completely escapes me.
As far as the gas gauge issues are concerned, Cadillac is by no means alone. The problem has been positively epidemic throughout GM cars & trucks for at least a decade beginning in the early 1990s. No other major make suffers from this malady, in these proportions- as far as I'm aware.
The salt is horrible but it does seem to effect domestic cars more. I see plenty of GM cars that are just a few years old with very bad rust in body panel seams/bubbling and undercarriage.
My 02 Lexus with 169k miles only has surface rust on the exhaust system and rear differential. The rest is spotless. (brake lines, panel joints, floors, etc look factory new).
I get your frustration but I don't think GM / Cadillac are the only ones with these issues.
I have seen rusted lines on an Audi and Toyota. So it seems if you put enough 'salt' on the roads it will eat through just about anything eventually. I don't remember the Toyota seeming unusual but I think the Audi guy commented on how hard to find the parts were. They were not just universal parts off the rack at any old auto parts store.
Weak head gaskets seem to be common issues with most engines that have aluminum in them. They are all fine till they get hot. When they get hot they leak. They are not like the all cast iron we used to have where they could take a little abuse.
Perhaps Lexus, being a premium automobile utilizes better corrosion protection in construction than other manufacturers- I really cannot say.
Only thing I can attest to is that there's no shortage of rot bucket Nissans, Hondas, Toyotas, Hyundais etc in these parts, I assure you. One of the very worst were Toyota truck frames- so bad in fact, there had been a massive recall on huge quantities of Toyota trucks made from the mid 90s and up. (I don't recall the cutoff dates). Many frames were replaced at the dealerships or the vehicles bought from customers and scrapped.
As a side note - the rotted frames wound up actually being a windfall for a great number of customers: One of my own customers told me he was paid $14,500 for a Toyota truck he had purchased two or three years earlier for $8,500. The company was paying 150% of NADA book value.
Brian i agree fully. 2003 Suburban is my issue. Very similar rust issues on underbody lines/fittings. Rear a/c lines so well know to corrode that adtermarket ac rubber line kits are premade to bolt right in and stop the madness. Brake lines go fast too. I am in NJ. Simply ridiculous. Add $25 more tobthe sticker price and use better materials underneath. Lets not go down the path of the cheap plastic connectors/levers/panels inside the cars either....$&#*â,¬Â¥{
I recently came across a '98 LeSabre I was considering for my mother to replace her car. Nice outward appearance with mileage in the mid 80's. No body rust or damage and still looks good for its age. I took it for one short ride and heard something rattling under the car. Told the dealer and he informed me that they had just driven the car in from an auction from central PA and hadn't gone over it yet.
A few days later, I see the car on their lift, so I stopped in. The heat shield above the muffler was SHOT, banging off the muffler and trunk floor. The exhaust was also on its way out. Floors were ok, but should have been better for a car with those miles. Called me back to take the car for another test drive. The dealer goes to get gas NEXT DOOR to the lot and is back in less than two minutes. A front brake LINE, not the hose, blew as he was pulling up to the pump! Needless to say, the car won't be coming to my house...
That brine is a KILLER! I could just imagine the brakes failing during a test drive!
Eric,
I remember that Toyota frame recall. The Toyota master tech I bought my 88 pickup from had about 8 of them at the time and made HUGE money.
I had an 89 4Runner that almost rusted in half.
So yes I agree some of the older foreign cars were at the time probably the worst as far as rust goes.
Seems like Lexus/Mercedes/Audi/etc stepped up their game but plenty of rust still for GM. (from my observations).
If I recall correctly all of the brake lines on my Lexus are coated. That can't add hardly anything to the cost. How much are good metal coatings and seam sealers? As Jeff said, a few extra dollars and this stuff wouldn't be a problem. Even if it was a few hundred that is really nothing on top of the cost of a new car.
Observations/experiences/opinions on the matter of foreign vs domestic resistance to rust will vary from one individual to another.
As a full time car dealer for the past 25 years, I've probably come across as broad a cross section of vehicles as anybody - and for what little it may be worth - such a correlation has yet to be established - at least as far as I'm concerned.
I've seen everything from puffs to rodents - and everything between, on vehicles that were 5 - 55 - and everything between, both foreign and domestically built.
In my view, one of the single most important factors is preventative maintenance: It is vital to periodically flush the undercarriage as soon as possible after any occasion of the car having been subjected to such adverse conditions.
Just as one wouldn't waste any time cleaning spilled grape juice from one's couch, removal of corrosive substances should be handled in the same prompt manner.
One man's opinion.
So maybe all those 4 wheeling beach surf fishing outings with the suburban down the NJ and NC shores should have been followed up with a spray n wash afterall..... :(
Quote from: Jeff Wilk on August 29, 2013, 01:24:28 PM
So maybe all those 4 wheeling beach surf fishing outings with the suburban down the NJ and NC shores should have been followed up with a spray n wash afterall..... :(
A good pressure wash of the undercarriage would probably have helped.
I even go so far as taking the additional step of following that with the pressurized wax treatment on the undercarriage. Finally- never just park the car in the garage until you drive it - giving most of the moisture a chance to dissipate.
Finally, one of the biggest mistakes people make is park a snow & salt caked car in a heated garage. This will exacerbate rust issues.
Agree with the heated garage idea. Back in my funeral director days, we religiously cleaned the fleet in the garage. It would get SO hot and humid in that garage with no movement of air. I remember we replaced TWO rear doors on the hearse in the time I worked there. Really, we should have replaced the hearse twice, but that's another story...
I think the Audi had coated brake lines. Did not help much. Same as the un coated ones it went at one of the clips holding it to the body. My guess is crap got under the clip and rubbed off the coating.
I'm in the salt belt and have almost always had to park outside. I had a car that was my daily driver that had held up fairly well all the years that I had it. It only had a couple spots showing. One winter I had the rare opportunity to park in an attached garage. It was not heated per say but was well above freezing throughout the winter. That spring I looked at the car and all the rust that seemed to suddenly pop up that last season. I just figured it was its time and it had been working from the inside out and finally broke through. Was thinking of a different car anyway so I ended up selling it to a friend. He parked outside and never washed it. He had it for another 10 years (and 200k over when I sold it to him with 190 on it) and it did not look significantly worse than it did when I sold it to him. I think staying frozen really helps. It was a 93 Roadmaster if anyone was curious. Original transmission finally was slipping bad and we think the timing chain (also original) broke or skipped so he figured it was time to say goodbye.
I 100 percent agree on the staying frozen theory. My dads vehicles never get washed and have always been parked outside. till 2007-8 for his 91 dodge Dakota to start showing massive amounts of rust. But my sisters husband has a 2009 Dodge Ram driven by him and stored in a heated garage the past 2 winters. i have to say that that truck is rusting much faster than my dads old Dakota.
I think it has to do with the ice and snow melting and creating actual water mixed with salt that would just run down the car and go everywhere. Where as if parked outside and left frozen it doesn't seem to do anywhere near the amount of rust damage. But the downside is that cold weather and that salt do horrible things to paint over time.
My solution is replace most of that underneath plumbing with 304 stainless steel.
Fuel lines & trans cooler lines are copper. Any clamp on the brake line is protected
by a couple layers of duct tape, to prevent electrolysis. Fuel line might get wrapped
by a layer of duct tape.
One reason I keep a car so long, is it takes so long to get it set up to last. Those
aluminum V8s may be high tech, but my 403s go 300,000 miles (maybe more)
with hardly an issue. See my bumper sticker
hi Brian,nice to meet you in person in Boston,had a nice ride up in my 05 251,000 mile town car,totally original 23.6 mpg,not broken in yet
GM builds cars for the new car buyer,that is the target,14 years out you are on your own,what's bad with Cadillacs of today is all the problems you have when the car should still be trouble free
the DTS is known to be a total headache,motors leaking oil,overheating,you name it, I do not take them at any price
the Chevillac Escalade I do have to buy,but we all hide behind a wall starting them up if over 100k,even my Cadillac dealer tells the same tale
Cadillac was a qualify car,starting in 64 they lost a little every year,by 71 the car was gone,and I have owned over 50 of each year car myself,so I have earned the right to beef
At one point 20 years back I had a set of 64-70 Converts all under 20,000 miles 100% original,all you had to do was look down the sides and at the fit and finish,64 was a diamond,my 70 had lead repairs on the inside of panels,missing paint,dings, and before you think it was anything to do with my car it had 5864 miles,and had never even been made ready,and it was the last car off the line bought by a relative of the founder of Cadillac
gm,the workplace,the country really started to change in 64,and the cars changed as well,you cant fight the tape!
Don't forget that the car makers, no matter what brand they are, only make new cars to last till the Warranty Period runs out.
Sure, the more expensive cars may be better built, with more anti-corrosion performance, but even these buyers don't keep them all that long.
But, having said that, way back in 1965, in a National Geographic I have, there is an advertisement for Cadillac expousing the benefits of purchasing a 1963 Cadillac. Can't see any company doing this these days.
Bruce. >:D
Bill,
Same here. I have a lot of respect for your Cadillac experience.
I like the 70's cars but I do recognize the build quality is lacking on some of them. The fit on many 76 Eldorado's and others of that vintage leaves a lot to be desired.
The mechanic that did the work on my car is very skilled. I don't know how he maintains his schedule, but he works full time at a dealership, plus every night and all weekend at his own shop.
He did say that when he did the engine work last year he looked at the brake lines and thought they looked OK, but really degraded in the last year.
I would suggest removing the plastic shields underneath that cover portions of the lines as these were the worst areas, and maybe cover the lines with some paint or even a layer of grease to keep the moisture away. Would undercoating help? would it seal off moisture, or trap it? I am asking because the fuel lines will be next...
I don't mind replacing mechanical or electronic parts that go bad or wear out. That's just what happens, but these lines and the way they are run, and the numerous transitions to rubber and back to metal and the limited access makes this a job for a professional. I'm glad it's fixed but it was a bit of a drain this week financially. Still better than making a car payment I guess.
Brian
With all due respect to Bill Refakis, I'd be willing to bet there's a far higher percentage 13 year old cars in service today than there were 35 years ago - and that includes Cadillacs.
Built quality and fit & finish is all well and good but it's not of much help when the entire body starts rotting away after a few winters- which almost all of them did - prior to the late 1970s.
It's very easy to forget - now that most vintage 4 wheeled treasures barely see the light of day, let alone snow and salt - just how terrible these became after a handful of years' worth of 4 season use.
Remember how bad the mid 70's Asian cars were that found their way into the salt belt? I never saw cars with bodies that bad that still were more or less holding together.
For those not in the rust / salt belt:
What a lovely light dusting of snow on a late fall day right? The white stuff on the road is not snow, its about a 1/4 thick crust of 'salt'. I believe this was a day or two after our first snow of the season. I think that stuff would likely even eat plastic. This amount of salt on the roads is pretty typical in my area and I suspect typical for any places that uses it. This photo was not 'in town', it was a 'country road' where I really did not expect it.
(https://forums.cadillaclasalle.club/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi148.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fs35%2F73eldo%2FMisc%2FFranconia-20111208-00142.jpg&hash=1b3bcdf06e9a9f79fd59e71a14fe53d80455d574) (http://s148.photobucket.com/user/73eldo/media/Misc/Franconia-20111208-00142.jpg.html)
Luckily, we live in a location where salting the roads is a very rare thing, and when they do, it's usually best to just stay home and watch the carnage live on TV. ;D
It's kind of funny that because the gov't mandated that emissions parts last 10 years/100K miles, and the exhaust system is part of the emissions system, those parts are usually made from stainless steel. You can lay under a 15 year old car, amazed at the rusty parts you see, yet the exhaust system looks nearly new.
Too bad the gov't doesn't require safety equipment to last 10 years and 100K miles, AND name brake parts as safety equipment. But, since they don't, those parts just have to last an average of 3 years and one day, or 30,001 miles.
But I'm not cynical, or bitter. ???
Can anybody out there guess the average age of the family car used on the road today
in the U.S.?
There was an article in yesterday's paper that stated it now 11 years. That's longer than
any time in history. I remember as a kid (I'm 63) that if you could get 10 years out of a car
here in the rust belt it was a miracle. To get 100,000 miles was almost unheard of. A car
with that kind of age and mileage was considered a "junker" and unreliable. Now, that
mileage and age is almost routine.
We can wax nostalgic about how much "better" cars were back then but it's simply
not true.
The use of magnesium chloride as a "pretreatment" on roads during snow season is
common here in Pittsburgh. It is contributing to rusted brake lines, fuel lines and other
underbody components. I've had to replace brake lines, AC lines (under the car, I have a
GMC Suburban with dual AC). However, that's another issue.
The DO HAVE coated brake lines now (they are a gold / copper color) that are guaranteed
for life. That's what I used a replacement.
Mike
Quote from: Mike Josephic CLC #3877 on August 31, 2013, 07:09:22 PM
We can wax nostalgic about how much "better" cars were back then but it's simply
not true.
Absolutely agreed.
Old cars were definitely a lot better than newer ones in some areas; in others, far worse.
I can certainly understand Brian's frustration, especially after having just spent a small fortune on his Eldorado but the simple fact remains - we're dealing with a near- 15 yo car with in excess of 100,000 miles that still survives to be daily driven- while still managing to appear practically as good as it did when the car was new. Such a feat would have been practically unheard of in a Pennsylvania driven car- 35 years ago: Think of it - just how many 1965 cars did you see daily driven in the rust belt in 1980 that still looked new? Very few. Today it is commonplace.
Rotted brake lines or not, it's a lot easier (& cheaper) to deal with than rotted sheetmetal and heaven knows what else.
And in Brian's own words, it's a lot less than the monthly payment on a new Caddy. More deliberate attention is a fact of life with any older car.
In any case, nothing can beat the formula for cost per mile in terms of motoring pleasure, comfort and everything else there is to be enjoyed- with a well-tended, pre-owned Cadillac - at least as far as I'm concerned.
The odd thing is that the exhaust system if totally stock and original and has no signs of rust.
Back in the old days we were always putting on mufflers, tailpipes, etc.
We did use the new copper/nickel lines that are corrosion proof.
Yes, spending the money on something like brake lines is frustrating, and I do marvel at the fact that the sheetmetal on these cars holds up extremely well as compared to the 60's and 70's cars.
I just think that brake and fuel lines should be stainless or some corrosion proof material, not just common uncoated steel.
It's done and over with but just annoying.
Brian
Really? 14 years old and 100k miles and you're complaining about a pretty minor maintenance bill? Things DO start breaking and failing on ANY automobile around the 100k mark. That's why you are able to buy a car of this age (especially a Cadillac) for chump change.
I just had to replace the engine as well as the transmission on my '98 Chevy pickup with similar mileage, but I'm not whining. These things are to be expected, and we are compensated by the relatively low acquisition cost.
Just drive it, and fix it when it breaks!
True. I remember when you had to replace rusted out mufflers and exhaust pipes. Now new cars come with stainless steel exhaust. You'd think a safety thing like brake lines would have been a priority before exhaust.
Cars are not designed for us collectors. They are designed to look pretty and run without breaking for the warranty period. Which for most is 3 years, 36,000 miles. I think that the bodies are holding up far better than ever. But a good part of that is non metal parts. ABS bumpers and fenders etc. Inner fender liners are plastic too.
It is the electronics that scare me. Try buying any ECM or BCM out of warranty. I notice at night on my commute, that I'll pass many older cars driving with one or two yellow warning lamps glowing on their dashboards. A 20-25 year old car with 100K+ miles is worth little and any serious repair could exceed its value.
It's only going to get worse as car companies scramble to meet future fuel economy minimums.
Phil,
I'll stand by my comments.
Did you read the post?
I spent about $4,000 on replacing tons of parts, including major engine work.
My point is, as was, that I didn't mind replacing the stuff that broke or wore out, but I think that GM, and Cadillac especially should have corrosion resistant brake lines. Luckily I discovered this leak in my own driveway, not doing a panic stop because a little kid ran out in the street.
The way the lines are run is an overcomplicated mess, and they should not rot out. It's a major safety issue.
Brian
Quote from: Mike Josephic CLC #3877 on August 31, 2013, 07:09:22 PM
Can anybody out there guess the average age of the family car used on the road today
in the U.S.?
There was an article in yesterday's paper that stated it now 11 years. That's longer than
any time in history. I remember as a kid (I'm 63) that if you could get 10 years out of a car
here in the rust belt it was a miracle. To get 100,000 miles was almost unheard of. A car
with that kind of age and mileage was considered a "junker" and unreliable. Now, that
mileage and age is almost routine.
<SNIP>
"Average" age? Heh, around here, that's the newest vehicle we own!!! 2002 GMC 2500HD. ;D
just drove home in a 28,238 mile 2012 suburban,front differential totally gone
ford ,get this is recalling my wonderfull town car 05-11 for RUSTING OF STEERING SHAFT CAUSING LOSS OF STEERING,
thank the lord I always shoot the underhood parts with marvel mystery oil,
by the way I had 70 cadi frames rot thru and come apart on 8 year old cars what I always did on mine was to shoot the inside of the swiss cheese perimiter frame rails with marvel mystery oil kept the pristine!
Quote from: wrefakis
Ford ,get this is recalling my wonderfull town car 05-11 for RUSTING OF STEERING SHAFT CAUSING
LOSS OF STEERING, thank the lord I always shoot the underhood parts with marvel mystery oil,
by the way I had 70 cadi frames rot thru and come apart on 8 year old cars what I always did on mine was to shoot the inside of the swiss cheese perimiter frame rails with marvel mystery oil kept the pristine!
There are a lot of places under a car, that like to collect road crud and rust. When my 80 was new,
I first sprayed many of these with rustproofing. Then I duct taped them shut, and filled them with
expanding foam. Today after 300,000 miles no rust there, the foam & duct tape are still in place.
Bruce Roe