Hi community,
we purchased a 1957 Cadillac Series 62 sedan in April.
The car seemed to be good and we had hope for a nice season.
Only the brakes were bad, so we changed the wheel cylinders (wet) and brake shoes (worn).
On our first trip (look at that: http://www.thejukin50s.de/ (http://www.thejukin50s.de/)) we managed 30 miles and were towed home with a hot, smoking left rear drum.
After that we tried new brake hoses and changing the brake shoes (shop mixed primary and secondary brake shoe), nothing works.
Than we had a test drive with cancalled rear left brake and got a hot rear right drum.
So, story is not over. Next step will be a new master brake cylinder, because we think that there is a constant pressure on the system after the first few brakes, maybe coming from a flabby spring in the master cylinder.
If you have other suggestions, pleas feel free to post.
thanks and kind regards
Matthias
Been there. My right front locked up and the car and I almost burned up! Really, you have to go over the entire system--wheel and master cylinders; hoses; and have the booster rebuilt. Have the drums checked as well.
I got in the habit of bleeding the system every year now. The wheel cylinders started to seize on mine. The system is basically open to the atmosphere and it will attract moisture. The booster is where fluid and air work together to give the boost. The slightest failure on either side can expose the fluid to even more atmosphere.
Drum to shoe adjustment is critical as well.
Good luck!
Hi Walter,
do you found a specific failure finally?
regards
Matthias
In my shop we would open bleeders starting at the master/booster and work back til the brake released, this should help pinpoint the cause.
Brake systems are vented to the atmosphere. Every time fluid is pumped out of the master cylinder to activate brakes a little bit of air comes into the system. The air has moisture in it and over time the moisture mixes with the fluid and the brake fluid-water mixture travels through the system. Most of of us do not change our brake systems fluids regularly and we are pumping the water enhanced mixture through our brake systems. I just had to replace two rear wheel cylinders on a Triumph Stag because the were designed to be on a slant and water collected at the lowest spot and during storage the wheel cylinders failed. If I had changed the fluid often enough I would not have had that problem. In our old cars, many of which sat idle for many years and the old fluids were not as good as modern fluids I am surprised that we do not have more failures due to internal corrosion in the systems. Stainless steel brake lines are a good start if you are doing a restoration but if not, a thorough flushing is a good alternative. Do not just bleed them, run enough fluid through them to flush out all of the old fluid as it is contaminated and damaging your system.
Not sure if other 57s have this but when I got my 57 the previous owner said the brakes dragged sometimes. I have since replaced wheel cylinders shoes and hardware. But when you released the brake pedal you could see it was not returning all the way. There was a spring attached to the pedal to pull it up. Mine was badly attached so I attached it to a new mounting point on the brake pedal and the brake pedal returns fully by its self now. Just a though. Im not positive the spring is original, but it does work fine.
-Gavin
If your's had a return spring on the pedal, something was wrong. When my brakes started to act up, the pedal wouldn't fully return and the lights stayed on. That should have been my first clue something was wrong.
What returns the pedal to "off" position are the brake shoe springs and the large one in the master. If they can't push rusty, cruddy fluid back, then there's bigger trouble coming.
There should be no brake pedal return spring, but many people added them when the brake pedal would not return to fully released position as opposed to analyzing the problem. Most times it was an incorrectly adjusted brake pedal push rod which is easily adjusted behind the brake pedal in the passenger compartment. I used Castrol LMA (Low Moisture Absorption) brake fluid years ago and have been very happy with it. It's DOT 3 and has kept moisture out of my system.
The pedal should return by pressure in the master cylinder created by the springs on each wheel which open the shoes. If the pedal does not return it could be the fluid as Jon mentioned or corrosion in the mechanical parts prevent the shoes and opening back up. No fluid can actually keep moisture from the system because every time you pump the pedal you are introducing a little moisture containing air into the system. The average humidity in your area will have an effect on how much moisture you will be taking in. Low moisture Absorption fluid could reduce the problem and if you use that and live in a location with low humidity you would not have to replace your brake fluid as often depending on driving habits and amount of driving you do. If you drive your car a lot and have a habit of pumping your brakes and live in a location that has high humidity you will need to change fluid more often. There is probably a test you can perform to determine fluid absorption but it is probably easier to just change it every few years.
Thanks for your replies,
I think the shop added a return spring to the brake paddle.
I will let them change the fluid and brake pad return springs.
What effect has the return spring in the brake master?
How I have to adjust the brake paddle push rod? Is there an explanation in the shop manual?
Thanks
Matthias
I once saw a car where the anchor pin was slightly loose. During normal driving it would shift enough to let a shoe drag on the drum. To get in the guys shop you had to back up and backing up and hitting the brakes would shift it back so it would not drag. It was always fine when he got it jacked up and checked things. Took a long time to figure that one out.
I have found that few things have been a better purchase than a power bleeder! I drive my '57 a lot and that fluid goes from clear to yellow in a hurry! Regular bleeding also helps remove some of that crud that builds up in the system as well. You might also make sure that the brake pistons are rebuilt - it is pretty easy to do yourself with a specially-made kit. Same goes for the master cylinder. I noticed that upon rebuilding my two rear pistons, there was a bit of corrosion in there, so I replaced them. At present, my braking issue concerns the right front grabbing before the rest - something that is not cool on a panic stop! I figure that I need to take a look at the rears too to make sure that the piston connecting rods are correctly aligned as some wheels seem to generate more brake dust than the others.
Good luck, and remember: being able to stop when you want greatly enhances the driving experience!
Dave Burke
Today we tested the car after changing the brake pad return springs and voila .....
We got low temperatures after an half hour test drive. Only the left front wheel is a little hot with about 172 F.
But it's squeaking and only this wheel.
Do you have a suggestion for squeaking drum brake?
Regards
Matthias
You may need to look on your firewall, Years ago, I had a '57 convertible, and had trouble with getting the brake pedal to "return". The leather inside the drum on the firewall had dried out. Application of neats foot oil squirted inside the drum though the inspection hole solved the problem.
Where is this inspection hole on the booster? I need to add this oil to my 57.
My '58 has a small removable rubber plug on the top right side of the booster. Don't know if '57 is the same. I use an eye dropper to add the oil and then replace the plug.
They're not. '57 is a HYDROVAC. '58 is a TREADLEVAC.
"57 has more in common as far as brakes to a '55. "56 and '58 had Treadlevacs. No idea why they tried the Delco design for '56 and went back to the tried and true Bendix for '57. Also, ALL '57 and '58 Eldorado Broughams have the Bendix Hydrovac.
Car is back from the shop. They make a full brake booster overhaul and new brake pads on the hot wheel, but .......
bad braking when car is cold, and heavy pulling to the right whil breaking.
Car goes now into winter sleep and shop get it back in march for the next try :-(
Winter is over and the car is back from the shops second try.
They get the booster work and make all brakepads fit to there drums.
Yesterday we had the first trip with 75 mls in one direction and everthing works. The car brakes a little "digital", which means that the rod travel of the brake is short and pedal is relativly hard. And after low brake power you got the full boost.
But the drums dont get hot.
So, season is open.
Bettina,
Not sure if you replaced the flexable hoses in your system(4ea),but should they deteriorate internally,you can have brakes dragging. This is VERY common on vintage cars.
While I have no specific suggestions, based on experience with my '49 with similar Bendix brakes (but no power booster), I have the following general suggestions:
1. Have master and wheel cylinders sleeved with brass or stainless steel;
2. Replace all metal hydraulic lines with stainless steel line;
3. Replace periodically rubber hydraulic hoses;
4. Use correct lining, as I have found some suppliers provide lining more appropriate for large trucks which is "slicker" and doesn't work well on our cars. Grind a small bevel at each end of the linings.
5. Before installing shoes, using white lithium grease or Lubriplate lightly grease all points where there is metal-to-metal movement, including all parts of star wheel adjuster, metal "pads" where shoes contact backing plate, both ends of "strut rod" for hand brake on rear brakes, both ends of retracting springs and spring under star wheel, retainers and both ends of pins which go through guide springs which hold shoes to backing plate;
6. Do a "major" brake adjustment, which involves adjusting the "anchor pin" at top of the shoes in order to center the shoes within the drum. Instructions are in the shop manual. (The procedure differs somewhat from year to year: on a '49 the anchor pin is an eccentric, while on a '55 you use a hammer to tap the backing plate and the anchor pin to center it. Don't know on '57s.)
One more point: after installing new linings or buying new shoes with linings installed, have the linings "arced" to the drums; that is, have the linings turned on a machine so that they are same radius as the drums. This is important if the drums have been turned in the past. Some but not all brake shops can do this.
We replaced everything but the booster, which the shop restored. They were familiar with the booster because mercedes-benz uses the same one in the 50s too.
Making the pads fit the drums was difficult, they told us. Next time they suggest to use new drums.
Did they ever measure the drums to see if they are still good?
The Mercedes type brake Booster looks identical, but they are not interchangeable. And also the internals are different, too!