Probably a long shot, but then I found someone who rebuilds the cruise control mechanism, so I figured it didn't hurt to ask: Does anyone know of someone who rebuilds or sells auto-ride leveling system on a 1965 Fleetwood? Someone removed mine a long time ago, and I heard they were problematic, and I have working air shocks now.
But I wanted to know if I found one at a junkyard, does anyone rebuild them, or is it just not worth the trouble to convert back?
I think it is worth converting back. But then I do all my own work on the 68 ELDO. I’ve put a lot of miles on the car and have kept the ALC working all the time.
If you find one of those compressors in a junk yard buy it. If fact buy all of them you can find. You may need them for parts. You will need at least one with a good regulator The test is if it still has the yellow cap on it.
When you get one or more post back here there are several of us that help you rebuild it and make the system work.
Don’t forget to get the height valve from the rear axle if you don’t already have one.
Glen,
Good advice.
Mac,
I have some for sale. Removed from Ca. cars years ago & dry stored.
Bob
Perfect, thanks guys!
Mac,
The Fleetwood was standard with level control. There are two ways to go here that are near perfect functioning:
1. Repair your ALC to full working order.
2. Switch the rear springs and shocks to DeVille non-level control Rear springs and shocks.
If you are to GN and want authenticity I would go with option 1. If you frequently load up the back of the car and drive long distances the ALC should be repaired (option 1.) so that the alignment and handling of the car is not compromised.
If the car will not be loaded up in back much and you are not going to go for a high ranking prize at GN, then I would use option 2.
The worst way to go is air shocks and no operational compressor. The shocks have to be adjusted via adding and removing compressed air based on varying loads. Interestingly many cure the problem this way, which I disagree with.
If you had an Eldorado which is also standard with ALC then ALC is more vital because there are no alternative springs for non-ALC equipped cars (leaf from 67-70), and the back is lighter and passengers and luggage change percentage of weight in back greater than RWD Cadillacs.
This is a difficult restoration, because very few have the knowledge to perform the work, you will probably need to do it yourself, or switch the springs and shocks on your Fleetwood. If it were me, probably would go with option 2.
Scott,
Read the service manual. ALC systems are simple in operation and repair. Finding the parts is the only hard part.
Greg Surfas
Greg,
You are right, but all the mechanics not in our club or this forum that are my experience and reality most often fail to read the shop manual even if you photocopy the pages and highlight it for them.
One reason I'm a fan of the 1970 mechanicals on a Cadillac is simplicity, no air pump and no fan clutch. I like it when there are fewer things to fail. Of course it is not difficult to convert other years to this level of simplicity/reliability. If my RWD 1970 Cadillacs were equipped with ALC probably would convert to standard springs and shocks to avoid the possibility of a failure. On an 1970 Eldorado probably would have to fix ALC.
I know these smog pumps, ALC and fan clutches lasted forever on everyone else's Cadillacs, just going for simplicity - less things to go wrong.
Scott,
Some people like everything to work as it was intended. I have even heard of people who fix their car's clocks.
Greg Surfas
Scot, if I was interested in simplicity I would have a Volkswagen bug. It’s the “toys†on the Cadillacs that I like and I like them to work as they did when new. For example, I know many people change the mechanical clock to electronic but I like the original with the automatic speed change when you set the clock.
I think someone needs to work on finding some to make the parts. They are not that difficult. The piston seals are O rings. The check valves are simple rubber pieces and the regulator parts can be turned on a lathe. The only difficult part is the diaphragm. And that is not really difficult compared to some rubber parts I have seen.
Quote from: Scot Minesinger on January 16, 2016, 08:35:21 AM
Mac,
The Fleetwood was standard with level control. There are two ways to go here that are near perfect functioning:
1. Repair your ALC to full working order.
2. Switch the rear springs and shocks to DeVille non-level control Rear springs and shocks.
If you are to GN and want authenticity I would go with option 1. If you frequently load up the back of the car and drive long distances the ALC should be repaired (option 1.) so that the alignment and handling of the car is not compromised.
If the car will not be loaded up in back much and you are not going to go for a high ranking prize at GN, then I would use option 2.
The worst way to go is air shocks and no operational compressor. The shocks have to be adjusted via adding and removing compressed air based on varying loads. Interestingly many cure the problem this way, which I disagree with.
If you had an Eldorado which is also standard with ALC then ALC is more vital because there are no alternative springs for non-ALC equipped cars (leaf from 67-70), and the back is lighter and passengers and luggage change percentage of weight in back greater than RWD Cadillacs.
This is a difficult restoration, because very few have the knowledge to perform the work, you will probably need to do it yourself, or switch the springs and shocks on your Fleetwood. If it were me, probably would go with option 2.
Thanks Scot, but what I was saying before is I'm aware my car came with just about every option as standard, but over the years things were modified, stopped working or were removed. At some point someone took off the ALC and added air shocks you can fill with a compressor. I was just wondering how feasible it is to convert back to the original. I'll probably tackle A/C and Cruise first, but it's on my list.
---and I just learned my lesson that I need to SEARCH before I post. I see I asked this question about 10 days after a serious ALC discussion had already been going on in this forum! Looks like there's a lot of stuff I don't know about. Apparently I need different springs? A compressor for each axle? Can my "valve behind the license plate" system be converted back over to the ALC? Just have the compressor fill where that valve would?
Mac,
If your ALC has been removed and the car is converted to the type where air shocks inflated manually, the correct springs likely remain in place. Sounds like you are all set on info and have a decision to make. In any event, enjoy your Cadillac, this is a nice winter project.
Glen,
If I go to hell the vehicle I drive will be a VW bug. I really prefer Cadillacs especially, and larger American RWD V-8 cars. By simplicity an example is the intake manifold mounted air conditioning compressor on the 472/500 Cadillacs with power steering pump idler pulley. Rather than two separate adjustable belt drive pulley system, there is one. The rugged compressor mount means less vibration, less wear on compressor bearings, and more reliable operation. Simplicity and reliability is luxury.
The climate control, cruise control, power windows, power seats, power locks, trunk release, sound system, clock and etc. need to be working to make me happy driving my Cadillac. The radio and clock can be modern rebuilds that look and operate very well, and it does not matter if the clock is quartz or not to me. I think that the climate control of the 64-76 era in a Cadillac works better than my modern daily drivers, and it is reliable once n good repair.
The two deviations that I'm always willing to make on any RWD Cadillas are abandon ALC with non ACL springs and shocks, and use radial tires. On the ALC back in the day people loaded their Cadillac with 4 kids and luggage in the trunk and drove to FL and ALC was essential. Now we don't use our cars that way, and so I'm OK with no ALC on a RWD. I think for FWD Cadillac Eldorados of the 1967-78 era you need the ALC.
I bought an electric compressor unit from a 1978 Eldorado, with low miles (for parts stock just in case) and it is understood that this can be used on the 71-77 Eldorados and maybe even the 67-70 Eldorados. This would seem more reliable to me.
To each their own. Enjoy your Cadillac!
Having successfully rebuilt the ALC system in my 67 Eldorado decades ago I can tell you there are many small moving parts inside the compressor. They wear, especially the plastic parts, & they wear depressions in the aluminum piston were they operate.
The level sensing valve corrodes inside due to moisture. If the dampening fluid is gone you can use the fluid inside old fan clutches.
The shop manual is completely adequate for rebuilding one IF you can find parts.
One of the biggest problems I found in all the compressor units I disassembled was dirt & carbon. If I were to do it all over again I would relocate the air intake to the compressor away from the air cleaner.
Good luck, it isn't all that easy but is doable.
Larry
I just want to point something out!
The alternatives above are 1. "overhaul the compressor" (tricky, but Cadillacville sells working compressors, I believe, if you can get hold of him) and 2. "replace with non-ALC rear end".
There are two other alternatives!
3. hook up the shocks for manual fill (I think most cars I have seen do this), maybe this is such a n obvious alternative you don't bother to mention it..
My preference is the fourth alternative...
4. get an air horn compressor and a half-gallon air tank from Amazon for about $100. You can power the air compressor from the windshield wipers, for example. Add a pressure switch and a relay and plumb it in like the original vacuum-powered compressor. The only downside of this approach that I know is that the cheap air compressors can be quite noisy. I mounted mine on the driver's side inner fender, right above the P/S cooler, and it's annoyingly noisy when the car starts up. I would put it farther from the cabin if/when I do it again. But it really does work and it's not a difficult modification.
I can send photos if anyone's interested in the install. I cut off the legs of the air tank with an angle grinder and attached it to the big cross-brace under the hood with two giant hose clamps.
I used the compressor and fittings from a VIAIR 10000 system but the air tank was too big so I got a smaller air tank from the same brand. Used the stock "superlift valve" under the car to set the height.
Mika
I have 3 core compressors if anyone needs one.
David
Mika,
I did mention your alternative # 3 (did not think this is a good idea) and that is what is currently installed. Your replacement compressor and tank (your option # 4) is good provided that shocks receive automatically controlled means by ride level so that compressed air is released or added from shocks as required to maintain the ride height.
I have a 1970 DVC that gets loaded with a 100lb floor jack in trunk, tools and etc. for long trips to GN and the back end does not sag with replacement springs installed in 2005. That is why I am a fan of making it real simple and go with DeVille rear springs and shocks (your option # 2). I converted a 1976 RWD Fleetwood to standard DeVille springs and shocks and the high up in CLC owner is very pleased.
Scott,
You mean we are in an aristocracy here?
Greg Surfas
Greg,
You mean the "high up in CLC" remark? If so just saying an elected person in our club who is particular about his Cadillac was happy once I fixed his rear suspension. Generally an elected person is fairly passionate about the preservation of our cars. He drove this three states over to have me work on it because there is no one around who will that he trusts. If you lived in a more populated area, you could be busier if you wanted to be.
Before I got it the springs in rear of 1976 Fleetwood were not in their correct position (had to rotate both about 180 degrees). This resulted in an unappealing not level stance. The rear springs were DeVille springs recently replaced coupled with air shocks connected to the manual inflate system I don't like. Rotated springs to correct position and replaced shocks, now car is a dream to drive, and it is level.
This car also suffered refrigeration issues and needed a carb rebuild. Now it is good to go.
Anyone have a look at more recent OE air ride compressors? Some don't look like they take up much space and being that they come on higher end cars I would think they would not be that loud.
I have read all of this thread and I am not sure so I am asking only so I will know. My 68 Fleetwood had ALC but it was removed and replaced with air shocks before I got the car in 1980. The car floats down the road better than any other car I have been in. Should I be concerned about the springs? Is it being said that if the ALC is changed out to Air Shocks that the springs should have been changed too?
I have owned 2 75 Coupe Devilles one with ALC and one with out. Granted they are newer but operate virtually the same. The one with ALC rides so much better than the one without. Now what you need to do is take apart your air ride compressor do it very slowly and carefully, especially when you go to split the 2 halves you do not want to TEAR THE DIAPHRAGM!!!! I have a good compressor here that has a torn diaphragm. Also one of the long ones from the 60s that has a good one. They will probably end up being one unit in the near future.
That being said if the diaphragm isnt torn you can most likely get it working easily. Its basically just cleaning all the little parts and using a brass brush to knock the calcium off all the little spots where parts pivot. Then you grease all the pivots with Red N Tacky, and put some silicone spray all over the Diaphragm and put it back together. If you notice the inside of the tank is all rusty and crusty you can fill it with Oxalic Acid (Powdered wood bleach) and let it soak that will kill all the rust. You mix about a table spoon to a gallon of water. Then rinse it with baking soda and water then dry it and paint it. The pump will run great after that until the Diaphragm tears. I havent had a chance to try and figure out a fix for it. But I did speak to a few guys who rebuild fuel pumps and they said if I want enough of them they will make me a few. But that was 2 years ago.
The other issue is the line that runs from the pump to the ride height valve in the back. The ferrules and fittings are not a standard size. My line was torn in the middle, and I tried just about every air line and even oil pressure fittings to reconnect them but they are just slightly smaller OD then a new style line. When my compressor worked the shocks would inflate and just slightly raise the car maybe an 1/8 of an inch but the line leaked through the fittings to much to do anything more than that. I thought about replacing the line front to back, and another member said he had to very carefully drill the ferrules out and put the new line in. I never got to try it though because I sent the car to the body shop a few weeks after that. Now I just got it back and thats a whole new disaster.
If you search my name youll see I put up a post a couple years ago where I tore a compressor down and how I greased and got it ready to rebuild but the diaphragm was torn so I never finished. Oh and I forgot the Quadrajet gold paint seems to be just the right color for the pump body.
Mark,
The ALC has air shocks, the non-ALC did not have air shocks. Your car has ALC shocks.
If your Cadillac stance is level front to back and you are happy with ride quality, I would leave it alone.
Mark,
Meant to add also, that I have seen many relatively original 1975 and 1976 Fleetwoods with the ALC system in original condition and various stages of modification, from all original components functioning somewhat to modified, and replaced with non-ALC: And they all ride and drive fine. Since I do not really notice a difference driving a fully functioning ALC Fleetwood and a ALC removed with DeVille rear shocks and springs replaced Fleetwood, I always advise to abandon the ALC. The Eldorado being front heavy FWD, I probably would keep the ALC or make it operational.
Aprules2,
Probably driven 15 different Cadillacs over the last three years with and without ALC, and with and without functioning ALC, but all generally in good repair. They all rode well. Generally the front suspension seems more important to me in terms of how the car rides and drives. You have an ideal comparison with near identical Cadillacs one with and one without ALC, questions:
1. Are both in very good repair, so mechanically similar in that both have about same mileage, both have front end with at least upper control arm bushings replaced, probably lower control arm ball joints replaced, front shocks replaced and same tires-both less than 6 years old?
2. What is the difference in ride characteristics?
Quote from: Highwayman68 on January 17, 2016, 10:10:37 PMIs it being said that if the ALC is changed out to Air Shocks that the springs should have been changed too?
Its if you put regular shocks in you would likely have a ride height problem if you didn't change the springs. If you have replaced the originals with aftermarket air shocks you are getting the same effect as the factory ones had. Difference is you have to manually adjust the height.
Thanks all for the good feedback
I was just digging around a bit and it looks like in the 2000's for many applications each shock has an electrical connector which makes me think each one has a 2 way valve on it that can either add or vent air so that would also imply that the compressor must be a constant pressure thing. Can anyone with a newer car with air ride comment on when the compressor runs or how loud it is?
I had a 1995 Fleetwood RWD and you could hear the electric compressor when outside or window down while parked and idling, never while driving. It was not objectionable at all. It was kind of good to hear a little, that way you know it is working.
I changed the rear air shocks once in 254k miles just because they get changed every 200k miles whether they need it or not. Never had any trouble, wonderful car.
I'm pretty sure a 95 was like the late 70's and 80's where both shocks were tied to the one pump and the pump had the vent valve on it so pump ran to lift and vent opened to drop. That was how my Roadmasters were from that era so I presume the Cadillac's were the same way, at least the Fleetwood. Compressor was mounted under the car just in front of the left rear tire. Seemed like a bad location but all 3 of the cars I had from that era still worked.
The systems I am curious about being able to use the compressors from are newer or possibly different models. From the looks of the parts it looks like a McPherson strut but has an air bag over it instead of a spring.
Both cars were 75's the only difference in Mileage was about 7k miles. My first one was a 75 Coupe Deville that I bought with 64k miles and got rid of at 72k miles, because it rotted out badly. It had been owned by an elderly couple since new and they used it until they passed away then the kids sold it to a gas station owner who thought it was worth a million dollars. When he couldn't get 10 grand for it in 2001 he eventually forgot about it and they sold it to me for $800 in November of 2003. It either had ALC removed or was a NON ALC car. From when I got it it felt nice and soft going down the road but any kind of bump you had the feeling of being kicked in the butt. You'd actually feel the car go nice and easy over the bump in the nose then youd get a harsh reaction out of the rear suspension. Being near 19 ft long it didn't aggravate me too much but it didnt feel Cadillac like. The car had Monroe Sensatracs in the rear and the factory shocks in the front. Aggravated by the ride I replaced all 4 shocks with Sensatracs, then Gabriels trying to get that nice floaty Caddy ride but no matter what it always felt like that. I believe the car had NON ALC springs in it because my current Car has 67k on it and anything you put in the trunk makes the rear of the car drop, where as the first one would drop as much as a regular vehicle would. Best example is the spare tire my current car drops close to 2 inches when I put it in the trunk, the other one maybe dropped half an inch.
Now my current car had the compressor still in place and the factory ALC shocks in place I bought it with 64k on it and it now has 69k on it. This car had 64k miles put on it between late 74 when it was bought to 1979 when it was parked in a garage and forgotten about. The guy sold it to me non running with 4 very flat twin stripe white walls in a garage covered in cobwebbs for 1800. When I got the car running the compressor didn't want to run so I had to take it apart and lubricate it, then I attempted fixing the front to back line and the air shocks had some slight air pressure in them. I took that for a ride and it felt like I was riding on a cloud. It honestly blew my mind how nice it road. That being said both cars had all stock suspension components the only difference was shocks, they were riding on the exact same tires, even rims, because when I sold the first one it left with junk yard rims and tires on it, and the current one has the new tires I had put on my first one.
Now because finding a compressor rebuild kit is up there with finding hens teeth, I was actually exploring some of the ideas you guys had. My main concerns are ride quality and it has to be automatic, Cadillacs are about amenities, so going to the gas station to juice up my air shocks or flipping a switch manually to run my compressor seemed to no be classy enough. So I started thinking I needed automatic control with reliabilty, and maybe adapting an OEM system from another car would be easiest and I looked at a few cars that would work. The things that I looked for was simplicity in how it works, a solid rear axle means a very similar height sensor, and it needed to be able to be controlled for automatic height. My father has a 92 Olds 98 with Level ride in the rear, for those of you not familiar with the car its a solid rear axle with 2 Mcpherson air struts in the back, it uses a height sensor very similar to the one on the Devilles, and an electric compressor under the hood. It looks like it could be adapted kind of easily to our cars. However I cant find a schematic for the system. My concern is the ride height sensor may read back to a module of some sort instead of just a simple relay or something to turn the compressor on and off. Another option that seemed easier was electric level ride was available on Caddys around 78 and Im not sure when they stopped using it. But thats the system that replaced ours and other than a time delayed relay it seems pretty simple and looks to be a simple swap. The last idea I had was do away with the springs and shocks all together and get air bags for the rear and use the Firestone controller or set up the system from a Lincoln Mark 7 they only had rear air, you could use the computer to trigger everything as if it was still in the Mark but it would be opening solenoids on aftermarket bags and running the factory compressor to fill them and then use factory Cadillac non alc replacement shocks.
A Perna,
Thanks for taking the time to answer. Why the non-ALC 1975 Caddy rode so bad I do not know.
The description of your 1975 Cadillac experience without ALC is not typical of the 1974 and 1975 Cadillac SDV's I drove. They were wonderful riding cars. The level control was more to adjust height based on varying trunk passenger loading situations, not really to improve the way the car rode (takes the bumps). If the back went down two inches with addition of spare, something was wrong. I have driven functioning ALC on a 1976 Fleetwood and a 1975 SDV (both no rust original cars) and to me they are the same in terms of ride quality.
Quote from: Scot Minesinger on January 18, 2016, 11:45:10 AM
I had a 1995 Fleetwood RWD and you could hear the electric compressor when outside or window down while parked and idling, never while driving. It was not objectionable at all. It was kind of good to hear a little, that way you know it is working.
I changed the rear air shocks once in 254k miles just because they get changed every 200k miles whether they need it or not. Never had any trouble, wonderful car.
I guess I'm the guy that's always doing weird things with my air shocks? Electric compressor on one of my '68 Eldorados and then...
I have a '93 FWB (with the darn L05 engine). I swapped out the shocks for Hotchkiss shocks (modified Bilstein 9C1 police-car shocks). So no air shocks in the back. No matter! I put in Air Ride 1000 helper air bags inside the coil springs. I read somewhere it's a good idea to put them in upside-down to get them to flush out any moisture.
The system really, really works. And the pressures are low, because the Air Lift 1000s have so much more surface area than a Superlift shock. The AIR RIDE lamp comes on for a purge on startup and when you put three big guys in the back seat, that's it. And it barely has to work.
The shocks also go with Impala SS wheels with center caps from a 2002 Deville I think it was... :-) The car handles like nobody's business (feels steadier than my '99 Camaro SS). Too bad it's a dog with the L05 engine and 4L60... I was thinking, sometime in the future, an LS-series engine in there. (I'm in California so putting in a 500 is out unless I bribe half the DMV.)
Mika,
In my 1995 Fleetwood, the engine made the car.
I remember reading an advertisement in Nov 1994 in a magazine at the dentist for Fleetwood "Going Platinum" referring to the spark plugs and the new engine. After seeing that started working towards buying one. BTW still have no cavities.
The stories I could write about that car, were what you would expect from a teenager bragging about his corvette. The power was just like an endless flow from a nuclear powered turbine. In in 2005 when the Fleetwood was replaced by a Dodge Charger w/Hemi the Fleetwood seemed faster - I know it is not. The 10 year old quarter million mile Fleetwood was more enjoyable for me to drive than the brand new Dodge (2006 model).
By now, it would seem that the least expensive way to change your car to the LT1 engine would be to sell the 93 and buy a 94, 95 or 96 Fleetwood. The price difference is not going to approach the cost of an engine swap.
I did replace the front shocks with Sensa-tracks when I first purchased the 1995 Fleetwood to get that float-bounce out of it, which was ridiculous. After that the car handled the way I wanted it to.
Enjoy your Fleetwood!