Since I'm in my late 60s now, I can remember Cadillac advertising that often used the phrase, "Standard of the World". It's been a long time since they did. Someone on this forum surely should know the last year for the use of that phrase in their magazine advertising. I'm curious.
That's a great question. I'm just guesstimating, but I think it was in the late 70's. I too wonder when they stopped the slogan, and why?
They were using variations of "standard for/of the world" through 1981. The last version was, "An American Standard for the world."
Some of the slogans that followed included:
"Best of all...it's a Cadillac"
"The only way to travel is Cadillac style"
"Creating a higher standard"
I think Beemer and/or Mercedes took exception to them calling Cadillac that.
Don't forget "Unmistakably Cadillac!"
G.
As it turns out, which I had forgotten, Cadillac used "The New Standard of the World" slogan just a few years ago (2011ish to 2013ish).
So, since 1982 they've used at least these:
Best of all...it's a Cadillac
The only way to travel is Cadillac style
Creating a Higher Standard
The Fusion of Design & Technology
Break Through
Life. Liberty. And the Pursuit.
Mark of Leadership
The New Standard of the World
Dare Greatly
Frankly, "Standard of the World" is all that ever needs to be said, IMO - despite the fact that the "Standard" has gotten a bit tarnished from time to time... ::)
I think Big Apple Caddy got it right with 1981, as Cadillac introduced the substandard of the world engine in 1982 with the 4.1 across the entire line as the only gasoline V-8. Cadillac may have used this phrase after 1981, but except for a few success (XLR, 1994-6 FWB, and a few others) it was false advertising until just recently.
I'm looking forward to the new offerings by Cadillac. Hope they realize the two seat convertible market is saturated and competitive, and try for a Cadillac 4 or 5 seat convertible, RWD w/V-8 please. Hopefully the CT6 serves Cadillac well. Sure wish they earn and regain the privilege of using that phrase again.
Quote from: Scot Minesinger on July 02, 2016, 07:27:14 PM
try for a Cadillac 4 or 5 seat convertible, RWD w/V-8 please.
Hey, FWD can work, too. But 8 cylinders is non-negotiable. Now it can be a straight eight, v-8, w-8, x-8, but there damned well better be all eight of them . . .
leave the two-seater convertible to four-bangers with manual transmissions (yes, I do own a miata, but the engine is seized).
hawk
No front drive for me. I think most of the Cadillac success and where it earned standard of the world, save the 1967 thru 1981 Eldorados was accomplished with RWD. I have driven both and the FWD require more maintenance and just do not drive as nice. The top luxury brands all use RWD. The recent Cadillac successes such as ATS, CTS and CT6 are all RWD. The XTS is on the way out. However, this hard to get a V-8 thing is no good. Chrysler offers a choice of 3 V-8's in some of their cars, and at least two V-8's in all the ones I might want to own.
Quote from: Scot Minesinger on July 02, 2016, 07:27:14 PM
I think Big Apple Caddy got it right with 1981, as Cadillac introduced the substandard of the world engine in 1982 with the 4.1 across the entire line as the only gasoline V-8. Cadillac may have used this phrase after 1981, but except for a few success (XLR, 1994-6 FWB, and a few others) it was false advertising until just recently.
I really don't think slogan changes were done as a reflection of quality changes. It's all simply marketing. There's usually a lot of leeway with these types of taglines/slogans and no real test or evaluation to qualify them. Just because Cadillac may have called themselves the "Standard of the World" or Lincoln said they were "What a Luxury Car Should Be" didn't mean it was necessarily true.
Quote from: Scot Minesinger on July 03, 2016, 12:00:19 AM
No front drive for me. I think most of the Cadillac success and where it earned standard of the world, save the 1967 thru 1981 Eldorados was accomplished with RWD. I have driven both and the FWD require more maintenance and just do not drive as nice. The top luxury brands all use RWD. The recent Cadillac successes such as ATS, CTS and CT6 are all RWD. The XTS is on the way out.
How are you defining success? Sales? Cadillac sales were a fair amount higher in the 1980s and early 90s when most of their vehicles were FWD including DeVille/Fleetwood, Eldorado, Seville, Cimarron, even Allante. The FWD DeVille/Fleetwood
far outsold the RWD Fleetwood Brougham/Brougham back then.
While it is true that the FWD XTS is on its way out, it was still Cadillac's second bestselling car (behind ATS) last year and is its bestselling car so far this calendar year. The FWD SRX is Cadillac's bestselling vehicle overall, all cars and CUVs/SUVs, by a large margin and has been for a number of years.
The motto changed to "an American Standard for the World" in model year 1975.
I think like all brands, Cadillac had it's "Down years" where there's no way that the motto "Standard of World" would even fly.
Personally I would say once they stopped making the big grandiose Cads after 76, that slogan no longer held true since Mercedes was building far more advanced cars with better fit and finish and material quality than Cadillac even if they were smaller than a Caddy and ran like crap. The 80's definitely was Cads worst decade as far as their cars went even though I loved the Broughams during that time and smaller FWD Fleetwoods. The performance was just horrible for a long time up until the late 80's and early 90's when they started fuel injecting everything and the power came back somewhat, but never again did we see big block, brute force power of the Cadillacs decades prior which were reliable and heavy duty.
They're exceptions, well finally there is. Just the other day I saw a CT6 on the road! It's looks huge! Very sleek and sexy car, and a size that stands out. I'd rather drive that thing than a 7 series as it's somewhat distinctive. The rear end is a little bland, but I am sure over time the company will make mid cycle updates to the styling.
Cadillac needed a car like this for years!! And they have finally built it. 8) I will say though, it does look a little too much like stretch out CTS, but the longer body looks better with the current design.
Between the new Lincoln Continental and Cads CT6, the big car market is once again revived, and this is where both brands respectfully flourish when they have cars that stand out and make statements.
If they can get the build quality right, great materials throughout, with the tightness and solidarity of the European makes, maybe the "Standard of World" can once again be legitimately realised.
I look at things differently. The problem is that I don't know how to get around it............ there are too many. If there are too many, they are not special.
It used to be when you saw someone driving up in a Cadillac, you knew they were SOMEBODY. Now it could be a Somebody, or just someone with higher lease payments than an Impala.
There was a local Cadillac dealer in my area that had a huge banner hanging that said "Credit Help Here.". Well, if you need credit help, why/how are you buying a Cadillac?
As I said, I don't know how to get around the problem-obviously there need to be sales. How do you sell a lot of them yet still keep them special?
Jeff
It should have ended when buyers no longer had to order a car, then wait for it to be built, then pay for it with either cash or hire purchase.
As has been said, when vehicles, or anything for that matter can simply be owned by monthly lease payments and driving it out the door, it is too easy. This way, there is no actual thought or consideration going into purchasing for an extended period of time.
Bruce. >:D
Quote from: The Tassie Devil(le) on July 04, 2016, 08:30:32 AM
It should have ended when buyers no longer had to order a car, then wait for it to be built, then pay for it with either cash or hire purchase.
As has been said, when vehicles, or anything for that matter can simply be owned by monthly lease payments and driving it out the door, it is too easy. This way, there is no actual thought or consideration going into purchasing for an extended period of time.
Bruce. >:D
Very valid points!
Quote from: Jeff Rose CLC #28373 on July 04, 2016, 07:58:32 AM
It used to be when you saw someone driving up in a Cadillac, you knew they were SOMEBODY. Now it could be a Somebody, or just someone with higher lease payments than an Impala.
Owning a new Cadillac, Lincoln, Mercedes and the like isn't as special as it used to be because they're more easily attainable thanks to things like lower and lower payments through leasing and longer and longer 84+ month financing terms.
Quote from: Big Apple Caddy on July 04, 2016, 11:09:23 AM
Owning a new Cadillac, Lincoln, Mercedes and the like isn't as special as it used to be because they're more easily attainable thanks to things like lower and lower payments through leasing and longer and longer 84+ month financing terms.
Which in turn comes from cars that can generally be expected to
last that long.
In 1950, it wasn't good banking odds to lend for seven years on a car.
Also, while Cadillac was always more expensive than base american vehicles, it wasn't the kind of gap we see today. It was within reach of most of the middle class, but most chose something else with that extra bit of money.
Given that the CT6 hybrid will be made in Shanghai, maybe instead of "American Standard of the World" it should now read "Chinese Standard of the World"??
OK, so I'm taking cover now ...... just joking, I'm still PO'd at GM for moving the Camaro build out of Oshawa.
Quote from: dochawk on July 04, 2016, 03:25:30 PM
Which in turn comes from cars that can generally be expected to last that long.
In 1950, it wasn't good banking odds to lend for seven years on a car.
With cars lasting longer and longer and having longer warranties, etc. long term financing is certainly more understandable but it still also allows for lower and lower payments making the cars more easily attainable and therefore less special. Financing even beyond just 36 months was still pretty rare until the mid 1970s or so. Leasing was a lot less common back then too.
Inflation adjusted, you can buy or lease much more Cadillac today than what you could even just 15-20 years ago.
Quote from: dochawk on July 04, 2016, 03:25:30 PM
Also, while Cadillac was always more expensive than base american vehicles, it wasn't the kind of gap we see today. It was within reach of most of the middle class, but most chose something else with that extra bit of money.
I don't know if that is necessarily true. For example, 50 years ago the base price of the least expensive Cadillac full-size or any size sedan (Calais) was twice that of the cheapest full-size Chevrolet sedan (Biscayne). Today, the base price of the cheapest full-size Cadillac sedan (XTS) is only about 2/3rds higher than the cheapest full-size Chevrolet sedan (Impala LS).
Due to pricing, leasing, and financing opportunities, the cost of entry into Cadillac-land just isn't what it used to be. Same is true for other luxury brands.
Dont forget about credit. Cadillac has GM financing....... same used for a Chevy. If you can drive away with a Cadillac after having your Hyundai repod, it isn't all that special, is it?
Jeff
The fact remains that the cost per mile to drive a brand new Cadillac is not exactly an inexpensive proposition - no matter how you slice and dice the payments whether leased or purchased.
Adjusted for inflation, it's every bit as expensive today as it was then - as the price of new automobiles generally outpaced the rate of inflation (without getting into issues of comparable accessories and so forth).
Quote from: Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621 on July 05, 2016, 01:36:50 PM
Adjusted for inflation, it's every bit as expensive today as it was then - as the price of new automobiles generally outpaced the rate of inflation (without getting into issues of comparable accessories and so forth).
The base price of a 1996 Cadillac DeVille, the least expensive Cadillac for that year, was $35,995 which when adjusting for inflation is over $55,000 in current dollars. The closest equivalent today is the XTS which has a base price around $10,000 less at $45,295 and, of course, there are even cheaper Cadillacs than the XTS. On top of that, financing terms and leasing terms are more favorable (allowing for lower payments) today than in 1996 or perhaps any time in history.
I've seen $0 down (just first payment due at signing plus tax, fees) leases on new 2016 Cadillacs for under $350/month for 36 months; there may be even better deals out there. Perhaps you could share examples, besides recent years, where one could get into a new Cadillac for less (inflation adjusted) with comparable terms? Were new Cadillacs leasing with $0 down for under $228/month in 1996? Under $159/month in 1986? Under $82/month in 1976?
Quote from: Big Apple Caddy on July 05, 2016, 04:21:17 PM
The base price of a 1996 Cadillac DeVille, the least expensive Cadillac for that year, was $35,995 which when adjusting for inflation is over $55,000 in current dollars. The closest equivalent today is the XTS which has a base price around $10,000 less at $45,295 and, of course, there are even cheaper Cadillacs than the XTS. On top of that, financing terms and leasing terms are more favorable (allowing for lower payments) today than in 1996 or perhaps any time in history.
I've seen $0 down (just first payment due at signing plus tax, fees) leases on new 2016 Cadillacs for under $350/month for 36 months; there may be even better deals out there. Perhaps you could share examples, besides recent years, where one could get into a new Cadillac for less (inflation adjusted) with comparable terms? Were new Cadillacs leasing with $0 down for under $228/month in 1996? Under $159/month in 1986? Under $82/month in 1976?
Interest rates today are very different than prevailing interest rates in 1996 which means GMAC's required rate of return today is commensurate, thus reflected in payment amount. Unless you have a near perfect credit rating, you can pretty much kiss goodbye any hopes of $350 with $0 down. Don't scratch it, dent it or put "excessive mileage" on or you'll get hit with other charges when you turn it back in. There's a whole lot more in the fine print they don't tell you in advertising blurbs.
Don't even bother going into the 1980s when interest rates were at, or near-record levels. Also worth mentioning is the effect of high interest rates on an organization the size of GM & its suppliers is huge for it has direct effect on the cost of capital which must be calculated into the cost of the product just like any other business expense.
Vastly different interest rates and economic conditions equates to apples and oranges for the purposes of making relative comparisons of this kind.
Supposed "$0 down and $350/mo" leases aside, one would be hard pressed to find many new Cadillacs (or other vehicles costing as much) in the driveways of households with average income.
Quote from: Scot Minesinger on July 03, 2016, 12:00:19 AM
No front drive for me.
Me, neither. FWD means more expensive maintenance.
I suppose that, from a historical perspective, when did Cadillac Motor Division BEGIN using the phrase, "Standard of the World"? I had the impression, perhaps erroneous, that said phrase was used for a long time... far longer than the ones since said 'classical' advertising phrase.
I say that all the folks in charge of Cadillac advertising should be required to read the 1935 classic, "The Penalty of Leadership", at least every three months! Now THAT was superior advertising, as timeless as "Somewhere West of Laramie".
I also say that Cad Mot. Div. should have stayed with, "Standard of the World", into perpetuity----just for the sheer chutzpah of it!
Is there anyone else on this forum.. that is really tired of Cadillac's modern penchant for lazy, poorly-chosen, hard-to-remember model names (only three letters)?
I'm sure that most of us can remember model names like "Calais", for example. Where is imagination these days?
Cadillac Motor Division is "missing the boat" on this.
Quote from: Maynard Krebs on July 06, 2016, 01:24:02 AM
Is there anyone else on this forum.. that is really tired of Cadillac's modern penchant for lazy, poorly-chosen, hard-to-remember model names (only three letters)?
I'm sure that most of us can remember model names like "Calais", for example. Where is imagination these days?
Cadillac Motor Division is "missing the boat" on this.
This has been an ongoing issues for at least a good 10 -15 years now. No imagination, or creativity with the names that will stick in your mind after you're done test driving a Cad from a dealership. "What was the name of that Cadillac we just drove Barbara"? " Oh I don't know honey, maybe it was the CZ or CTZ, or STWXYZ? I mean it's laughable at times and really ridiculous when you really think about it.
It might take some more time for names to make a comeback. The Germans screwed it all up for them. Cadillac, just like Lincoln (Even worse) thought they could lure BMW drivers to their brands if only they played along with calling their cars by the alphabet. :'(
By successful I do not mean sales or profit perspective, although no company can survive without adequate profit.
Maybe those mid and late 1980's Cadillac FWD cars earned Cadillac profit, but they are not my definition of successful. My definition of successful is RWD, V-8, and I would want to drive it both new and years later. Examples: 1995 Fleetwood RWD-successful, and 2014 XTS V-6 not successful. FWD does not drive as nice as RWD. FWD requires more frequent brake, suspension, steering and alignment work than a RWD. The need for maintenance in a FWD also detracts from driving experience. Where I live my RWD vehicles get an alignment every time the tires are replaced, say every 50-70k miles, whereas my neighbors have their FWD POS aligned twice a year.
Understand Cadillac offers FWD due to demand, but an optional RWD bias all wheel drive vehicle satisfies this requirement.
All of the successful luxury brands such as MB, Lexus, Jag, BMW, Audi, and etc. utilize RWD or All wheel drive with RWD bias. In order for Cadillac to return to "Standard of the World" status, they need to continue in the direction they are aimed at now and use the RWD platforms with V-8 offerings (or maybe a V-12 again), and a 4 or 5 seat convertible. Cars made now that will be desirable many years later will make them successful models.
Quote from: Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621 on July 05, 2016, 04:57:40 PM
Interest rates today are very different than prevailing interest rates in 1996 which means GMAC's required rate of return today is commensurate, thus reflected in payment amount. Unless you have a near perfect credit rating, you can pretty much kiss goodbye any hopes of $350 with $0 down. Don't scratch it, dent it or put "excessive mileage" on or you'll get hit with other charges when you turn it back in. There's a whole lot more in the fine print they don't tell you in advertising blurbs.
Of course leases have mileage limits but they're not typically as strict on dings and scratches as you seem to think. Leasing has gotten and remains popular but the point was and still is that you can get into a new Cadillac today for much less than times past thanks to lower pricing and/or lease deals and/or long-term financing terms and/or easy credit or a combination of. All of this can make a new Cadillac much more easily attainable and therefore less special.
Quote from: Maynard Krebs on July 06, 2016, 01:24:02 AM
Is there anyone else on this forum.. that is really tired of Cadillac's modern penchant for lazy, poorly-chosen, hard-to-remember model names (only three letters)?
I'm sure that most of us can remember model names like "Calais", for example. Where is imagination these days?
Cadillac Motor Division is "missing the boat" on this.
While I don't think the choice of names is a matter of being lazy, being old school I do prefer names like Seville, Fleetwood, etc. over CT4, CT6, XT4, XT6, etc. The automotive market has become more global and using alphanumeric model names for luxury brand cars is largely the norm and expected/desirable throughout the world. Acura, Audi, BMW, Genesis, Infiniti, Jaguar, Lexus, Lincoln, Mercedes-Benz, and Volvo all use alphanumeric model names for most if not all of their vehicles.
Quote from: Scot Minesinger on July 06, 2016, 08:49:11 AM
Cars made now that will be desirable many years later will make them successful models.
Sure, rear-wheel drive makes a car desirable. I mean who doesn't long for cars like the Chevrolet Vega, Chevrolet Chevette, Ford Pinto, AMC Gremlin and the like, all of which were RWD. ;D
Quote from: Big Apple Caddy on July 06, 2016, 09:10:47 AM
The automotive market has become more global and using alphanumeric model names for luxury brand cars is largely the norm and expected/desirable throughout the world.
Hmm.
We could go with an unpronounceable symbol, and ask to be referred to as "the luxury vehicle". The press could call it, "The automobile formerly known as fleetwood" . . .
:)
Quote from: Big Apple Caddy on July 06, 2016, 09:10:47 AM
While I don't think the choice of names is a matter of being lazy, being old school I do prefer names like Seville, Fleetwood, etc. over CT4, CT6, XT4, XT6, etc. The automotive market has become more global and using alphanumeric model names for luxury brand cars is largely the norm and expected/desirable throughout the world. Acura, Audi, BMW, Genesis, Infiniti, Jaguar, Lexus, Lincoln, Mercedes-Benz, and Volvo all use alphanumeric model names for most if not all of their vehicles.
So, why should Cadillac be a 'follower' instead of a 'leader'? I think that all of us should re-read the great 1935 ad, "The Penalty of Leadership". I bet that the late Maurice Hendry would agree with me on this. Did you ever read his comparison of a '34 Pierce-Arrow with a '64 Coupe deVille?
"Leadership": let's think about that. The world once did follow the great American autos, like Cad, P-A, Packard, etc. So why not "lead" the world again? Why be simply a follower?
Admittedly, this would be a massive undertaking. But, first, the top management of GM need to re-think the whole firm. Instead of having every 'make' within GM offer a model for everyone, the corporate thinking should be changed... to offering a make
with only one model for a given type of customer. Cadillac should be
the unquestioned luxury car within GM: none other. Another make should be the low-price, transportation value. A third should be the 'sporty' car. Yes, options could alter this a little.... but each make should offer ONE model. Then, GM would be no longer competing within itself, but against sales possibly lost to the competition. Kapiche?
Quote from: Big Apple Caddy on July 06, 2016, 09:05:19 AM
Of course leases have mileage limits but they're not typically as strict on dings and scratches as you seem to think. Leasing has gotten and remains popular but the point was and still is that you can get into a new Cadillac today for much less than times past thanks to lower pricing and/or lease deals and/or long-term financing terms and/or easy credit or a combination of. All of this can make a new Cadillac much more easily attainable and therefore less special.
When interest rates are low,
everything is more attainable.
Attainable or not, few new Cadillac cars are owned by average income earners and that's a fact. It is also a fact that the average age of a vehicle on the road in the US is 11.4 years.
Quote from: Maynard Krebs on July 06, 2016, 04:31:53 PM
... the great 1935 ad, "The Penalty of Leadership"...
Actually that ad appeared in 1915 just after Cadillac introduced the V-8. ;)
Big Apple Caddy,
You took my quote out of context, clearly V-8 was attached. And the POS models you mentioned that were RWD would have been even worse if they were FWD. If FWD was the way to go in a Luxury brand Cadillac would not be in a minority in offering it.
Quote from: Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621 on July 06, 2016, 05:35:04 PM
When interest rates are low, everything is more attainable.
Not necessarily but it's also more than just about interest rates. It's about pricing and/or it’s about better lease deals thanks to better residuals and how Cadillac and others are incentivizing and subsidizing leasing and/or it’s about longer and longer term financing and/or it’s about easy credit or some combination of all of this.
Quote from: Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621 on July 06, 2016, 05:35:04 PM
Attainable or not, few new Cadillac cars are owned by average income earners and that's a fact.
Many people that would've never been able to get into a new Cadillac (or Mercedes or......) in times past are doing so today thanks to one or more of the above. Cadillac is supposed to be a luxury car but it's not the luxury it used to be again because of one or more of the above.
Quote from: Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621 on July 06, 2016, 05:35:04 PM
It is also a fact that the average age of a vehicle on the road in the US is 11.4 years.
Sure, cars on average are lasting longer and longer and the average age of cars on the road has been going up for decades and decades and decades. Those 11.4 year old cars may be on their second, third or fourth owner. So?
Quote from: Scot Minesinger on July 06, 2016, 05:38:30 PM
You took my quote out of context, clearly V-8 was attached. And the POS models you mentioned that were RWD would have been even worse if they were FWD. If FWD was the way to go in a Luxury brand Cadillac would not be in a minority in offering it.
You mentioned the CT6 as being one of Cadillac's recent successes yet it's not offered with a V8 (yet). If success means RWD and V8, why do you consider the CT6 already a success? You also called the ATS and CTS recent Cadillac successes yet there sales have been in decline for years.
Big Apple Caddy,
You asked for my definition of success and it is not profit or sales volume related (think Eldorado Brougham 1957-60, 1953 Eldorado, 1956-57 Continental Mark, 1961-67 Continental 4dr convertible - all alleged low volume great cars that were not profitable). My definition of success is a car I would want to drive when new and when older. Understand that I am not a reflection of the market for Cadillac. However, I think the other Luxury brands are building cars that I would consider a success. There was an announcement that Cadillac is building a CT-6 w/V-8. if so great, should be a success, if not will never buy one. You can buy a couple Dodge models RWD with a nice V-8 for a reasonable price - so don't think I am asking too much of Cadillac. The standard of the world should best most other American makes.
BTW The current CTS is such a great looking car (not the V), that it is about the only car ever (to me)worth driving with a V-6. In styling this is a strong contender for standard of the world.
I really don't know why Cadillac abandoned RWD V-8 full size luxury for so long, or even bothered making small tiny FWD's (ATS) at all and expect the buying public to fall for it. FWD are fine cars to drive for the everyday commuter, but they do tarnish the image of a luxury car especially of a brand like Cadillac that has such a great history of building such amazing cars over the years.
I mean how damn hard is it to build a RWD car anyway? You'd think the cost would be cheaper for Cadillac to go the RWD route, as less parts are used compared to a FWD setup where everything is crammed right in front of you. Plus the durability of a a big V8 and heavy duty rear axle pushing a car around would make for a long lasting reliable Cadillac to boot.
The definition of success......
I think it is when you see a car go down the road while walking the dog and you stop just to see it drive by. Or you see a car up ahead and you speed up to get closer just so you can be sure it really is what you think it is.... and you stay on the road 1 more exit just so you can watch it drive. Or you pull into a parking lot and there is 1 car parked at the end of the lot and you swing around just to see it from all angles............ that is the definition of success.
If a car isn't special enough (or so common) that you don't all that then it really cant be a success..... and if they are so easy to attain, so commonplace that their owners dont take the time to park it at the end of the lot, then it isnt special.
Jeff
Quote from: Big Apple Caddy on July 06, 2016, 08:45:19 PM
Not necessarily but it's also more than just about interest rates. It's about pricing and/or it’s about better lease deals thanks to better residuals and how Cadillac and others are incentivizing and subsidizing leasing and/or it’s about longer and longer term financing and/or it’s about easy credit or some combination of all of this.
Many people that would've never been able to get into a new Cadillac (or Mercedes or......) in times past are doing so today thanks to one or more of the above. Cadillac is supposed to be a luxury car but it's not the luxury it used to be again because of one or more of the above.
Sure, cars on average are lasting longer and longer and the average age of cars on the road has been going up for decades and decades and decades. Those 11.4 year old cars may be on their second, third or fourth owner. So?
This is getting a bit ridiculous.
If the average car is 11.4 years old, chances are it resides with a household of average income. 11.4 years is a far cry from a new car, let alone a Cadillac.
Where is the evidence of the masses buying new Cadillacs coming from? I have seen none.
I also think you are woefully underestimating the impact of low interest rates.
Quote from: 64CaddieLacky on July 07, 2016, 12:37:47 AM
I really don't know why Cadillac abandoned RWD V-8 full size luxury for so long
One reason they abandoned RWD V8 full-size cars is because they weren't selling for the brand. The last full-size RWD V8 Cadillac sedan (1993-96 Fleetwood) was outsold by the FWD DeVille/60 during that same period by more than 5 to 1.
Quote from: 64CaddieLacky on July 07, 2016, 12:37:47 AM
or even bothered making small tiny FWD's (ATS)
The ATS is RWD.
Quote from: Jeff Rose CLC #28373 on July 07, 2016, 07:27:08 AM
If a car isn't special enough (or so common) that you don't all that then it really cant be a success..... and if they are so easy to attain, so commonplace that their owners dont take the time to park it at the end of the lot, then it isnt special.
I don't think the problem for Cadillac right now is that they are too common. Sales are lower today than many years in the past. It's the "attainability" part compared to times past that to me makes the brand less special. To be fair, it's not all Cadillac’s fault nor is this issue exclusive to Cadillac. The market and financing, leasing, credit terms have made luxury brands more easily attainable and Cadillac simply wanted to remain price/payment competitive. As attainable as Cadillacs have become, luxury buyers unfortunately are largely choosing one of the many (and also easily attainable) import brands instead.
Quote from: Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621 on July 07, 2016, 09:20:05 AM
If the average car is 11.4 years old, chances are it resides with a household of average income. 11.4 years is a far cry from a new car, let alone a Cadillac.
Maybe, maybe not. The average age of cars on the road has been on the rise for decades and decades because cars are lasting longer, regardless of interest rates, pricing or whatever.
Quote from: Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621 on July 07, 2016, 09:20:05 AM
Where is the evidence of the masses buying new Cadillacs coming from? I have seen none.
Unfortunately, more people are choosing one of the many import brands.
Quote from: Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621 on July 07, 2016, 09:20:05 AM
I also think you are woefully underestimating the impact of low interest rates.
Interest rates can be a factor but it’s even more about longer and longer term financing (which can bring payments down more than lower interest rates), favorable leasing deals and other things discussed here. Again, ALL of this has made
new Cadillacs more easily attainable and therefore less special.
Quote from: Big Apple Caddy on July 07, 2016, 10:23:21 AM
Again, ALL of this has made new Cadillacs more easily attainable and therefore less special.
Then
everything is less special because nearly every major auto manufacturer is offering similarly flexible financing terms - Mercedes to Kia.
In my book, Cadillac had shed a lot of its luster as a premium automobile decades ago - and it had nothing to do the convenience or affordability of the financing terms it did or did not offer.
Tying this all back to the original topic, Cadillac lost the moral right to call itself the standard of the world after 1981 when the 4.1 engine was introduced across the entire Cadillac line as the only gas V-8, and was the majority seller. Then quality deteriorated (say starting in mid 1970's) and peaked in the early-mid 1980's. By the time the DeVille line was changed in 1985 and the 4.1 remained in the full size RWD, this was the all time low. This cleared the way for Lexus, Infinity (introduced in 1988 or so, and an executive of Toyota or Nissan driving a 1985 SDV was probably the inspiration), and huge market gains for MB and BMW.
Usually the great cars are not sales successes. That is why the RWD 1993-1996 Fleetwoods were outsold by the full size FWD. Often that is the case the top offering elevates the brand and many people buy lower end to be associated with the top prestige offering. You know the RWD 1993-1996 Fleetwoods were better than the full size FWD offerings at the time, because of all the closed Cadillacs made between 1993 and 1996 the Fleetwood RWD are more desirable than FWD 6 to 1 now.
I sure Cadillac regains the honor to accurately use that sales phrase again. Now is an exciting time for me and others that are near the top of their earning potential, and should have a nice choice of new cars over the next decade. Whereas in 1982 through say 2002, the selections of new cars I would want are extremely few.
Quote from: Big Apple Caddy on July 07, 2016, 10:23:21 AM
Interest rates can be a factor but it’s even more about longer and longer term financing (which can bring payments down more than lower interest rates),
That is only the case, however, when interest rates are low, as they are today.
When rates are low enough that most of the first payment is interest, extending the term drops the payment significantly. When rates are high, and most of the first payment is interest,, the difference in payment between a 5 and 7 year loan isn't much.
Quote from: Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621 on July 07, 2016, 10:34:26 AM
Then everything is less special because nearly every major auto manufacturer is offering similarly flexible financing terms - Mercedes to Kia.
I sort of said that on this very thread three days ago when I wrote, "Owning a new Cadillac, Lincoln, Mercedes and the like isn't as special as it used to be......" Obviously because this is a Cadillac forum, the focus has been more on Cadillac.
However, I would say it's a
bigger negative for Cadillac and the like than Kia and the like because part of a luxury car’s appeal is (was) its "specialness" where Kia Fortes, Honda Civics, Toyota Corollas, etc. weren’t really special to begin with so potentially being less special is far less meaningful or impactful.
Quote from: dochawk on July 07, 2016, 11:24:00 AM
That is only the case, however, when interest rates are low, as they are today.
When rates are low enough that most of the first payment is interest, extending the term drops the payment significantly. When rates are high, and most of the first payment is interest,, the difference in payment between a 5 and 7 year loan isn't much.
Loan examples:
$30,000 48 month loan at 0% interest is $625/month
$30,000 84 month loan at 6% interest is $438/month
Despite the 6%
higher interest rate, the second loan results in a 30%
lower monthly payment. That's what I meant by the availability of longer term financing can make a car more attainable than even low interest rates.
Quote from: Big Apple Caddy on July 07, 2016, 01:39:39 PM
Loan examples:
$30,000 48 month loan at 0% interest is $625/month
$30,000 84 month loan at 6% interest is $438/month
Despite the 6% higher interest rate, the second loan results in a 30% lower monthly payment. That's what I meant by the availability of longer term financing can make a car more attainable than even low interest rates.
First of all, there is no such thing as a free lunch. So called "0% interest" is calculated into the purchase price of the car. Nobody in their right mind is indifferent between the option of receiving $30,000 today and $30,000 received over a period of
years. Period.
Secondly, financing arms of automakers are far more willing to extend repayment terms into 5, 6 or 7 years when prevailing interest rates are low - because it diminishes the implicit cost of doing so. Were the prime rate to suddenly jump to 10% tomorrow such financing terms would come to an abrupt halt (and pretty much everything else, for that matter).
Quote from: Big Apple Caddy on July 07, 2016, 01:32:23 PM
However, I would say it's a bigger negative for Cadillac and the like than Kia and the like because part of a luxury car’s appeal is (was) its "specialness" where Kia Fortes, Honda Civics, Toyota Corollas, etc. weren’t really special to begin with so potentially being less special is far less meaningful or impactful.
A new Cadillac is out of reach for the average car buyer just as it had been for many decades.
Maybe - and that is a BIG maybe - 10% more buyers might be able to afford the payments on a new Cadillac than would otherwise be the case as a result of the financing terms
currently available - and that would be making the heroic assumption that
all 10% had the credit rating in order to qualify to do so - hardly diminishes the prestige that goes with owning a new luxury car - Cadillac or otherwise.
I think you are overthinking this issue by far.
Here's a table for $30k
0.00% 3.00% 6.00% 9.00% 12.00% 15.00% 18.00% 21.00% 24.00% 27.00% 30.00%
24 $1,250.00 $1,289.44 $1,329.62 $1,370.54 $1,412.20 $1,454.60 $1,497.72 $1,541.57 $1,586.13 $1,631.41 $1,677.38
36 $833.33 $872.44 $912.66 $953.99 $996.43 $1,039.96 $1,084.57 $1,130.25 $1,176.99 $1,224.76 $1,273.55
48 $625.00 $664.03 $704.55 $746.55 $790.02 $834.92 $881.25 $928.97 $978.06 $1,028.47 $1,080.18
60 $500.00 $539.06 $579.98 $622.75 $667.33 $713.70 $761.80 $811.60 $863.04 $916.06 $970.60
72 $416.67 $455.81 $497.19 $540.77 $586.51 $634.35 $684.23 $736.08 $789.80 $845.32 $902.52
84 $357.14 $396.40 $438.26 $482.67 $529.58 $578.90 $630.54 $684.37 $740.27 $798.13 $857.79
96 $312.50 $351.89 $394.24 $439.51 $487.59 $538.36 $591.70 $647.43 $705.39 $765.41 $827.30
108 $277.78 $317.31 $360.17 $406.29 $455.53 $507.73 $562.71 $620.25 $680.13 $742.12 $806.00
120 $250.00 $289.68 $333.06 $380.03 $430.41 $484.00 $540.56 $599.80 $661.44 $725.22 $790.85
The higher the interest rate, the less difference extending the term makes.
6% is "low" by historic standards. 12% is "high". 24%-30% is either "Bad credit" or "1970s" :)
Quote from: Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621 on July 07, 2016, 02:06:44 PM
First of all, there is no such thing as a free lunch. So called "0% interest" is calculated into the purchase price of the car. Nobody in their right mind is indifferent between the option of receiving $30,000 today and $30,000 received over a period of years. Period.
Obviouosly I was using 0% to show that even the lowest interest rate still resulted in a higher payment when longer loan terms are available. We can also use 6% versus 12% or whatever.
Loan examples:
$30,000 48 month loan at 6% interest is $705/month
$30,000 84 month loan at 12% interest is $530/month
Once again, longer term financing even at the much higher interest rate gives a lower monthly payment or can allow people to get much more car (loan) for the same monthly payment or somewhere in-between.
Quote from: Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621 on July 07, 2016, 02:06:44 PM
Secondly, financing arms of automakers are far more willing to extend repayment terms into 5, 6 or 7 years when prevailing interest rates are low - because it diminishes the implicit cost of doing so. Were the prime rate to suddenly jump to 10% tomorrow such financing terms would come to an abrupt halt (and pretty much everything else, for that matter).
Not necessarily and sometimes it’s been the opposite as higher interest rates have also brought on the need for and availability of longer (than prior) term financing in order to try to keep payments acceptable/affordable for customers at least during that period of high interest rates.
Quote from: Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621 on July 07, 2016, 02:06:44 PM
A new Cadillac is out of reach for the average car buyer just as it had been for many decades.
Maybe - and that is a BIG maybe - 10% more buyers might be able to afford the payments on a new Cadillac than would otherwise be the case as a result of the financing terms currently available - and that would be making the heroic assumption that all 10% had the credit rating in order to qualify to do so - hardly diminishes the prestige that goes with owning a new luxury car - Cadillac or otherwise.
I think you are overthinking this issue by far.
The average new car loan today is over $30,000. A new Cadillac today can be had for under $28,000, already less than the
average new car loan even without factoring in a down payment. Leasing can also make Cadilllacs even more attainable payment-wise. New Cadillacs these days are just too attainable and that makes them less special.
Quote from: Big Apple Caddy on July 07, 2016, 04:21:34 PM
The average new car loan today is over $30,000. A new Cadillac today can be had for under $28,000, already less than the average new car loan even without factoring in a down payment. Leasing can also make Cadilllacs even more attainable payment-wise. New Cadillacs these days are just too attainable and that makes them less special.
The lowest priced new Cadillac model today is the ATS of which there are 32 sub models with MSRP ranging from $33,215 to $62,665 and only two have a base MSRP of under $40,000.
Next on the ladder is the CTS line beginning with the base 4 cyl with MSRP of $45,560 up to $87,465 (w/o options) for the AWD Platinum V6. (26 models)
XTS (9 models) $45,295 - $73,320 (base MSRP)
ELR (2) $65,000 - $66,295
SRX (7) $37,605 - $51,730 (1 under $40,000)
Escalade (16) $72,970 - $94,950.
So because just 3 models out of 92 have base MSRP of under $40,000 and because the payments on those three cars are similar to the average new car payment today is the basis of your argument of how attainable a new Cadillac is?
Ya okay. ::)
Incidentally, the fact that Mercedes Benz has been used as taxi cabs in Germany for decades hasn't seemed to have done much to sully Mercedes' image as a prestige automobile either, for whatever it may be worth.
That is all I have to say on this insipid subject.
On the leases and economics start another post.
Quote from: Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621 on July 07, 2016, 05:07:03 PM
That is all I have to say on this insipid subject.
Great and I will simply end with this,
the fact that new Cadillacs these days can be had for less than the average price of a new car or can be had for less than the average loan on a new car makes them less special. Cadillac used to be a lot better than this
below average territory even at the lower/entry end.