should the scorch marks on the surface look like A or B?
Those marks are there due to the arc that occurs when the points open and close, cheap point sets usually don't meet flat out of the box, so some tweaking of the arm is needed, but whether or not that improves anything I couldn't say.
B.
Thanks Marty
Dave I forgot i put letters on the pic. I looked at your post and thought B what is he talking about. lol Thanks.
John
Yes, "B" is the correct answer, and as stated above, there's is a minor misalignment. That's not to say that you can be successful at bending one of the "point of contacts" into a better set of positions-- perhaps other members have been successful-- I won't even try. Having changed so many points, I dare not mention a number, the rule of thumb "was" (is?) every 10-15 thousand miles, one should perform a tune up. "THEY" also used to sell point files-- also used to caution about using any tool except a point file, but I haven't seen a point file at a parts store in decades. I suggest that if you check your dwell with a meter-- if it is a steady 30 degrees --- that's fine, and check the readings according to your vacuum gauge, which will provide you with all the other vital signs of a well tuned motor. Then, I'd carry a spare set of point (and several condensers, since new ones seem to fail at an alarming rate). Hope this helps, James
While on the subject of points and those carried as a spare set. If you have an extra distributor (even one just for parts), do the following. Next time you change your points, get the best dwell adjustment out of them before removing. Then put the old ones in your spare distributor, on your work bench, and with a feeler gauge measure the opening when on the high point of the cam block. Remove, then install the new points also in the parts distributor, & adjust to the same opening as the old set. Best to do with with 2 sets of new points, as one set will be your spare. Install the new points in your car and it should be in the ball park with only minor adjusting required. Your car should start right away, on first try. That way it removes all the crank-no start and lots of point adjusting (and save your starter motor). Also, the extra set will be your spare in the trunk, ready to go in case of an emergency, (barring odd cam block wear since last adjusted). Who wants to fiddle with what can sometimes be a finicky point adjustment at the side of the road? In theory, proper alignment of the contact points should also help but I cannot offer any personal experience on that. James is right, also carry extra condensers as well. Clay/Lexi
For a point file you can use a jeweler's file. It's small enough to get into the distributor if you are doing it on the car. And it works great off the car. There's a lot of different ones available too. Just be sure to get one that both sides are parallel to each other. They make some that are tapered, and if you use one of them your points will be ruined.
I think that they are available in a set at Harbor Freight. If not there, then look online.
My wife is into making jewelry, and she gave me a couple of sets that had a few missing ones, but they had enough for me to do what I needed to do. They've been great for working on fixing stainless trim pieces.
Rick
NAPA still has an ignition points file available--might have to be ordered though. Part number is: SER 2153
Daryl Chesterman
I have seen them at other stores in stock out on the shelves. Performance Tool is the brand I think. Oriley's is one I usually see them at but I think I have seen that brand at other stores too. Once you leave the automotive realm they call them contact burnishing tools or files.
What I use most of the time is one of those little dremel tool cut off discs. Not the newer fiber ones (that are awesome for cutting by the way) but the thin really fragile brown ones that have been around for a long time with the tiny screw hole in em. I don't put it in the tool just use the raw disc by hand.
If its just corrosion from ambient conditions a dollar bill (or hundred if that is how you roll) has enough texture to just give them a nice polish without doing damage.
And the only brand of currently made new points that has not YET let me down is Standard Blue Streak. All the rest including some of the formerly good names are absolute garbage.
Quote from: lexi on March 02, 2020, 05:11:03 PM
While on the subject of points and those carried as a spare set. If you have an extra distributor (even one just for parts), do the following. Next time you change your points, get the best dwell adjustment out of them before removing. Then put the old ones in your spare distributor, on your work bench, and with a feeler gauge measure the opening when on the high point of the cam block. Remove, then install the new points also in the parts distributor, & adjust to the same opening as the old set. Best to do with with 2 sets of new points, as one set will be your spare. Install the new points in your car and it should be in the ball park with only minor adjusting required. Your car should start right away, on first try. That way it removes all the crank-no start and lots of point adjusting (and save your starter motor). Also, the extra set will be your spare in the trunk, ready to go in case of an emergency, (barring odd cam block wear since last adjusted). Who wants to fiddle with what can sometimes be a finicky point adjustment at the side of the road? In theory, proper alignment of the contact points should also help but I cannot offer any personal experience on that. James is right, also carry extra condensers as well. Clay/Lexi
Just look at your old points and put the adjusting screw on the new set as close to the same position as the old set set it will start every time.
Point sets where one half is a hollow ring and the other solid are usually considered the better type while the set with two solid contact points are less well liked.
Quote from: TJ Hopland on March 03, 2020, 12:58:42 AM.....And the only brand of currently made new points that has not YET let me down is Standard Blue Streak. All the rest including some of the formerly good names are absolute garbage.
I've also had good results with NOS Delco Remy points for sale on ebay. My '49 uses DR part number 1918148 which I can usually find for $6 or $7 a set.
"c" - no "scorching" Scorching indicates black. The metal oxides are whitish.
Since the points are closed mostly, the gap must not be right in your example.
Time for a new set in either case.
I think files went down when points became "cheap". All those filings stayed in the distributor too. Who in their right mind would take them out for that? Mostly to "clean" the surface more than flatten.
Used to not have much choice, mostly pre-war. Post-war quite plentiful.
It's a mechanical electrical system so expect some variation and maintenance. Why do you think they changed to electronic?
The "condenser" capacitor is supposed to prevent premature and spurious arking, by creating a square wave pulse. So that should be changed as well. They even made combined sets, for that reason and make more money. The condenser internals aren't very robust and you can't see in there and need a tester/DVM to tell.
You need to inspect the points "cam" as they can wear uneven and change the gap or
flatness.
Frankly, my dear, I'd use electronic. It a chore to lean over those fat fenders and snuggle up to the dist. With bifocals, it's not even a fair fight.
Just switched over to Pertronix on mine as I dislike the unfriendly location of these GM distributors. Up until my last set of points I was using Standard brand and was always happy with them. Clay/lexi
I have always had good luck with the Echlin brand that Napa sells, but it's been many years since I've used points in anything. I typically got 50K miles out of a set, and I only changed them because of the mileage, not because they were not performing.
Now they were not in a Cadillac, but in my old GMC V6, but "points is points". I've never had good luck with the cheap brands, but to be fair, I don't know how good the Napa ones are now either.
That V6 GMC is the last engine I've had that I used points in, and if I could have, I would have converted it to an HEI unit, simply for the hotter spark.
In my 56 that I'm putting the 472 into, I've already installed an HEI distributor from a 79.
Even though you can always get a set of points to work in a pinch, and the module in an HEI can't be repaired, the HEI provides better performance, and the module is easily changed if need be.
Okay I tweaked the points and found out how easy it is to throw them completely out of alignment. LOL I finally got them to a point where they looked good to me. I reinstalled them and set the dwell to 30. I guess in a few weeks I'll check them out again.
Jim I don't understand the first part of your post. Are you saying that if the points are aligned perfectly there would be no scorch marks? In diagram A is my set of points that burnt in the grayish spot and are therefore not aligned right. In B the black line I put in represents what I thought the scorch marks should be like.
So it sounds like you're all saying a condenser could burnout while you driving and the engine dies. So besides an extra condenser and points you need to bring tools!
And when you say file the points down, is that to get rid of the scorch marks or to try to mate the points better?
You should see the size and try to lift the toolbox I carry all the time.
I like the uni-sets, both on one piece, easier to remove / install. And I still like the hollow ring ACDelco sets. I never had a set bad out of the box.
pertronix or whatev - pure blasphemy. 8)
My P&C car starts in 1/10 of a second on a cold / warm start (as long as it hasn't been sitting for days), so there. :P
Regarding the "service life" of points, clearly, the 10,000 to 15,000 mile traditional points, condenser, plugs, ("...and while you're at it throw in a rotor, cap, and maybe even a set of wires), were huge cash cows for those manufactures, and, of course, for people who made a living in the car tune up business. Electronic ignition ushered in the era of trouble free 100,000 mile tune ups. Additionally, with the on board computer diagnostics, a mildly miss firing cylinder now receives ignition components for that cylinder ONLY. So part of this discussion dealing with burnt points, must also take into account, those rare events when someone leaves the ignition switch on, and distinct possibility that the points are contacting just enough to create a destructive arching effect--- James
Electronic ignition came in the mid 70's. I don't think 100k tuneups got somewhat common till the 90's. I don't think the 100k was any one thing it was an overall combination of improvements in materials and systems but you do have a point (pun intended) about the difference. I don't think you would have made it 10k in any 60's car only putting gas in it. Today 10k oil changes are common and most of the time the oil consumption is low enough you don't even need to add any in that time.
Yes, leaving the ignition on with the car not running is not good for points. But, the fellow who rebuilt my distributor said that doing the same with Pertronix installed is also not good. It just takes longer for some damage to occur. He did not specify what part would be affected. So sounds like the same rules apply if he is correct. Clay/Lexi
With Pertronix for the last 20 years you have to specify which model you are talking about.
I believe the original Ignitor is just an electronic non contact version of the points so I suppose its possible that its that 'dumb' and if the engine happens to stop with the magnet aligned with the sensor it will leave the coil on just like if the points were closed.
According to their own website the Ignitor II is 'smarter' and uses a micro controller which makes it like the original HEI. It should not matter that the magnet is aligned with the sensor. It should just send one pulse to the coil then wait for the next signal to come which won't happen if the engine isn't turning.
The Ignitor III looks like it ads multi spark and rev limiting.
I do not know about Pertronix, but the HEI relies on a pulse edge
generated by rotation to fire. No stationary action. When I had points
I questioned the need to replace so many parts, but nobody else saw
it my way. Later I found just blasting/gapping my plugs was the only
thing normally required with points/cap chage.
Regardless of what the dealer said, the HEI could easily go 50,000
miles and an occasional plug refresh would double that. As for oil
changes, that is my engine being worn out partly by dirty oil, and
there are no 10,000 mile oil changes here. Your results may vary.
Bruce Roe
Mike "My P&C car starts in 1/10 of a second" want to take a ride to Ohio? LOL
James your last sentence pertains to me I guess because while I'm working on something I do leave the ignition on for a minute or two.
So I tweaked the points and I'll check them a few weeks to see if the scorching has a different pattern
John,
You might consider a toggle switch on the coil under the hood. On my old boat motors, where I can easily take off the cap, I simply put a match book cover between the points if I need to leave the ignition switch on. If the points are closed when I slip the paper between the points, all the better. I take the opportunity to clean the points with the match book cover. I ALWAYS get some residue: likely some blow by smoke. Happy day, James
James the switch would break the coils positive line? That could also be a kill switch in case of theft right?
Yes--- in fact you can install a kill ignition switch between the coil and the distributor, if you have a ceramic ballast for your coil (some cars came with a "resistor wire, so don't cut that), and that will cut off the ignition as well. Just make sure to tie TWO strings around your finger--one so that you won't forget to switch the kill switch under the hood ON and the other string to remind yourself to switch the ignition switch OFF before you call it a day. So easy to defeat oneself! James
James how do I know if I have a ceramic ballast? Never heard of it. I don't see it in the shop manual. On my engine there is a plain wire from the coil's positive terminal to the points. The other terminal has a condenser on it. If I were going to do that I'd hide it under the dash or the seat or somewhere. So it would help to save the points when I'm working on it and as a theft deterrent when I am out.
John,
There are two ways that the voltage to the coil can be dropped in the run position of the ignition switch.
The first is through a ballast resistor, which looks like a small ceramic block about 3 inches long and approximately 1 inch square. It has a connector on each end for your wiring to connect to, and it is typically mounted on the firewall near the distributor, unless your distributor is in the front of the engine. It may also be mounted on the coil bracket itself on some vehicles.
There would be a regular wire running from the ignition switch to one side of that ballast resistor. The other end of the ballast will have 2 wires on it. One goes to the coil, the other one to the starter and it supplies the coil with a full 12 volts when the starter is engaged. Once the key is released to the run position, your 12 volts from the ignition switch runs through the ballast resistor to reduce the voltage and hopefully avoid burning out the points.
The other method of reducing your voltage is with a resistance wire between the ignition switch and the coil. Only on the start position of the ignition switch this resistance wire is bypassed with another wire running between the starter and the coil so that you have a full 12 volts during cranking. Once the switch is released to the run position, then the power to the coil reverts back to the resistance wire between the switch and the coil.
If you want to install a "kill" switch in the system, you can cut into the resistance wire, which I would not recommend, or you can remove the wire from the ignition switch and wire in your own switch between the ignition switch and the resistance wire. And then install your kill switch in an inconspicuous location where only you know where it's at.
If you have a ballast resistor, you can install the kill switch in exactly the same way, the only difference being that the wire you disconnected from the ignition switch is a normal one, not a resistance wire.
I hope that explains it enough for you.
Just remember, if the kill switch is off, your engine won't start. And if the kill switch is on, anyone can start it if they have a key or "jimmy" the ignition switch. So hide it well enough so it is not obvious, but so you can still get to it easily enough.
Good luck to you,
Rick
Rick my distributor is in the front of the engine. The coil has one wire from the positive terminal directly to the distributor/points. The negative side has two wires going through the firewall and a condenser. I don't see a ballast resistor.
I kind of understood what you said but it's a little deep for me.
So what I call a simple wire and you call a resistance wire between the coils positive terminal and the points should not be cut into.
The resistance wire feels different to the normal wiring in a car. The insulation is designed to handle internal heat, as the wire is actually acting as a resister to drop the 12 volts down to something like 8 volts. This insulation is sort of soft, and not stuck tight to the internal wire. Cut the wire to a different length, and the resistance is changed.
Some cars use a ceramic resistor to drop the voltage, and others use the actual wire.
The Ceramic Resistor is always attached to a hard surface, by a steel band to hold it still, as there is a bit of weight in them, and this has a coil inside that heats up. The Ceramic block is designed to protect everything around it from the heat.
Bruce. >:D
What Bruce said is correct. Also, if you have 2 wires at the coil, and no ballast resistor, then one of the wires is the resistance wire. It's typically a smaller wire, and on Chevys at least, usually brown with a white stripe on it. However, I have seen them with a cloth looking covering woven over the plastic insulation as well, and those are usually all white.
Either way, As Bruce mentioned, cutting the resistance wire does change the amount of total resistance, and therefore the voltage coming to the coil. Reduced resistance means increased voltage.
Rick
LMAO You guys are hurting my head. You're putting me to shame. You convinced me not to screw with any wires attached to the coil. There must be a small wire going from the ignition switch to the starter. Can I cut into that (for a kill switch). If it's a resistance wire don't explain, just say NO! lol
Damn how did we get from scorch marks to this? LOL
Thank you all for your patience.
Just say "Uncle" and I'll stop! LOL!!
Yes, there's a solenoid wire that you can cut into to install your kill switch. You will have to check your schematic for the color though, I'm not sure what it is for that year.
If you want it to be hidden though, you might want to do it under the dash instead. That wire comes from your ignition switch directly, and in later years it's a purple one.
For 65, I don't have a 66 schematic, but for 65 it's a dark blue color coming off the NSS.
Cadillac used a resistor wire from about 1959 up until the introduction of the HEI, you should not find a ceramic resistor on a '66. The resistor wire runs from the engine side of the firewall to the coil, if you want to cut into the ignition hot wire to install a kill switch to prevent theft, the #12 PINK wire running from the ignition switch to the interior side of the firewall is the one you want. You will see it in your shop manual in the wiring diagrams.
Richard :-*
35-709 Found the pink
Thanks all
John
Quote from: spolij on March 09, 2020, 09:09:21 PM
Richard :-*
35-709 Found the pink
Thanks all
John
Glad to have been of service. Sometimes it just takes an extra pair of eyes. 😎 Not mine of course, I'm blind!
Happy motoring, and enjoy that top down.
Rick
Maybe you need some of these next time.
Rick Happy motoring, and enjoy that top down. Rick
speaking of that tomorrow I go to have the top put on. Finally bypassed everything and got the heat to come on. At least my toes will be warm. So it'll be only that there is no top, the weather is supposed to be in the 50s and cloudy no rain, hopefully. And it's only about an hour away! !ol
Just remember to keep moving if it rains, so it doesn't get in the car! 😉
Will do. I think I'll bring my rain gear too. Just in case. lol