To keep technical talk in the correct forum, I started a new thread over here.
In my introduction post (http://forums.cadillaclasalleclub.org/index.php?topic=159785.0) the discussion was about more than one subject, so I decided to make a separate topic about injector sealing for the 70's fuel injected Cadillacs.
As I live in the Netherlands, I have limited access to US parts. We have some US part suppliers, but they don't stock specialized, or model unique parts so I have to order them from the US.
My main source is RockAuto because they are easy on shipping internationally.
Last week I received 7 boxes of maintenance parts for my Seville and included was a little box of injector seals (Standard SK2) which I tried to install yesterday. Without success.
After installation and switching on the ignition, fuel was squirting out everywhere.
Today I took the injectors out and it was clear that installation wasn't done right.......
So, Bruce already put me in the right direction because I installed the injectors by pushing them in the manifold seals first and after that pushing the fuel line on by tightening the clamps that hold the injectors and fuel line in place.
As you can see on the pictures this did result in a lot of broken seals.
In the second picture you can see the difference between the old and the new seals. The new ones are more ring shaped.
Anyway I need a set of new seals. Back to RockAuto and it seems that they have a supply of Fel-Pro seals for almost nothing (except shipping to the Netherlands).
I bought some sets and the story will continue when they come in.
The top heads I will reuse and to be honnest I don't know where the copper washers are supposed to be installed. I didn't see any of them when taking out the injectors.
To be continued.
Antoon
The idea was that the rails might not reseal well put back together,
so you put the copper washers in the rail joints to help. I have
never needed to use the copper washers.
I presume your original seals were in scary condition? Bruce Roe
Here’s a photo of one of the copper washer example from mine plus a photo from the Cadillac Seville Supplement Serviceman bulletin, Jan 1976 regarding installing the washers during service.
My car was fine except one injector was leaking rather than the seal. I had one injector physically cracked during removal. I sent the other 7 to MotorMan in Michigan to check and replace the small filters in the injectors. 6 were good, 1 was leaking. Our member Bruce sent me 3 replacement injectors and I sent those to MotorMan and they checked ok. So now currently I still have fuel seep at the rear crossover rail plus it seems like running on 7 cylinders. For now I had to walk away.
Good luck on the Seville, it looks gorgeous
The old seals didn't look that bad. They only leaked after we took the car from storage after 2 years, so I think that they sealed again after becoming wetted by the passing fuel.
But anyway, now all injectors are out, I will have to use new seals to put everything together again.
Then, about the copper seals:
When I look at the application information of seal kit SK59 (Standard Motor Products), I noticed that the Seville is only mentioned until '77, so maybe the fuel rail changed in '78 in a way those copper washers are no longer needed.
Looking in the parts book all models 76-80 had the copper washer . Listed as # 1608786 Gasket Fuel Rail Fitting
http://www.gmpartswiki.com/getpage?pageid=53091
Phil
I also bought a kit but I haven't installed it yet. It looks like on the rail side there was a square cross section seal and the replacement is a round o-ring.
When I see the round o-ring broken as it is in Antoon's photo it looks to me as if the o-ring was either too large or the o-ring "rolled" to where it shouldn't be due to possibly the shape or the order of assembly. I suspect the original was a square cross section to help avoid rolling during assembly. If it is the correct size to work maybe some lubrication could help but there are o-rings which can have a drastic reaction to the "wrong" lubricant and knowing what the material is compatible with is not always easy especially if you don't know the o-ring material. I don't have advice but that's my observation having put together quite a few o-ring joints.
Regarding the grommets on the bracket I think I would try assembling two different ways on a single injector with the injector and bracket loose in my hands to see if that part of the assembly alone is easier one way or another. I mean do you install the grommet in the bracket and then push the injector into the assembled grommet or does it go together easier/less effort/less force if the grommet is assembled on the injector first and then the assembly is pushed into the bracket. I've seen similar assemblies where there is a big difference.
I hope things go well with the second try Antoon. I don't like the way those o-rings look so I hope you find somethingg eye opening which drastically changes the situation. Sometimes replacement parts have a slightly different design. Sometimes that's good and sometimes it's not. It looks like all of the available selections on Rock have o-rings.
Scott
I just read the posts in the general discussion area. I was thinking of the same thing which Bruce Roe mentioned regarding the timing light. I will add the quote here to tie in the comment:
Quote from: bcroe on April 20, 2020, 11:50:00 AM
Those injector connectors are not great for this age, try wiggling them for a good connection. I think you can feel them click at
idle, and taking one off ought to cause a change. What we need is a clamp on meter that shows the injector pulse is actually
flowing, wonder if a clamp on ign timing light on one wire could do that? Bruce Roe
I should be able to try my timing light with RPM readout with the clamp around an injector wire in the next few days.
Another disturbing thing, it seems somewhat of a consensus, that those upper o-rings as substitute for the square/rectangular seals are not really a good replacement. At minimum it seems like it creates some added risk in assembly as I suspected in my prior post. And after reading Bruce's comment about different o-ring cross section I still suspect something to do with less than ideal size.
The material compatibility charts are pretty available. I just found a very good table. I'm thinking using that table I could either find a better fitting o-ring, in an acceptable material, for that location. I could possibly look into if a square cross section version could be made. It really bothers me when brands which generally have a good name seem to miss something like this.
Bruce also mentioned NAPA and another brand having the same inside bag markings. I've noticed situations like that as well. There was a really professional looking job done on the replacement thermostat housings. The problem is the dimensions for the "goose neck" which gets the small piece of 3/4" heater hose is completely wrong and it won't fit. I would need to dig to find the brands but I found 2 different brands with exactly the same issue. I finally ended up buying a used one from Bruce. I had already detailed/painted the new replacement so I couldn't return it. It's one of the most beautiful replacement pieces I've ever seen...which is completely useless for the intended purpose. Really sad.
Scott
I thought I would post some information regarding what I found on material compatibility. This information is from the Minor Rubber Company. They have a really extensive chart which you can move through the list by selecting the first letter of the chemical which you are interested in. Then just look across the top and identify a material which is compatible.
https://www.minorrubber.com/compatibility-chart.html
That sounds simple but you can see that the best "common" (easily available) o-ring material for gasoline is not that great with ethyl alcohol. So in this case we want to find something with good or excellent for both gasoline and ethyl alcohol. The "A" rating in this chart is recommended. Anything less than "A" has at least a minor reaction with the chemical in question. Some of their own specialty products are rated as "A" for both but assuming we are normal people I'm not sure how easy it would be to get products made from specialty materials.Probably searching those names and either "seal" or "o-ring" is probably a next logical step to see what's out there.
Most of the other soft parts in our system are likely not compatible with ethyl alcohol either unless the companies designing the replacement parts thought to keep that in mind. I would like to think so but I don't like blind faith when it comes to material compatibility.
Can someone post some dimensions of the original square cross section seal used on the top? Understand there will be compression set but that's a starting point.
Scott
Edit: Gallic Acid happened to be the line above gasoline so that's the only reason it's on the chart.... I didn't bother cutting and capturing again to remove it.
I just found another compatibility chart and it looks like Viton might be an available and good choice. If someone can post the dimensions of the square seal I will try to find a replacement.
Scott
We can agree that the old and the new seals are not the same.
I'm not convinced yet that the new, ring shaped, seals are worse than the original, more bus shaped, seals.
What I know is that I didn't install them correctly which caused the new seals to break, so I don't know if they would have sealed good when installed correctly.
Then the discussion about the copper washers that are not included in most of the sets of replacement seals.
I took the injectors out without taking out the fuel rail. I only had to disconnect the main fuel line on the back of the motor to be able to lift the fuel rail enough to take out the number 5 and 7 injector. I highly doubt if there is a copper washer in that connection.
Now the question is if I will be able to reinstall the injectors with new seals without taking out the fuel rails. For sure it would be much easier.
I hope I don't need them...... It will be another expensive shipment from the US to here to get them here.....
My new seals are on their way. I ordered 10 sets, so I will have something to play with when they arrive. I will let you know the result.
I also measured the old seals with my cheap Chinese tool (and these are the size after who knows how many years in the engine):
Inside diameter: 0.299 / 7,59mm
Outside diameter: 0.409 / 10,40mm
Height: 0.090 / 2,29mm
I also measured the top of the injector. The place where the seal sits is 0.3075 / 7,81mm
Another important size to know is the inside of the fuel rail where the seal sits. But then you will have to take out the fuel rail.
Antoon,
Good points and glad you thought to get multiple sets given part cost vs shipping.
I wanted to follow-up with one thing I didn't initially expect and others should be aware of regarding alternative materials. I found 3 different sources showing operating min/max temps for Viton. It seems it's not recommended for extremely cold temps. All 3 sources listed a similar minimum recommended. Most automotive applications should be listed down to -40 (the one temp where C or F doesn't matter). The sources I saw listed the min at -26C ; -10F (-23.3C) and -15F(-26.1C). Those are all really cold and below where I would try to even start a car I don't use in the winter but it would still make me hesitate before I decided to use Viton as a substitute. I did find a couple of other materials and I will check based on the sizes you measured but let's see how you do once your parts arrive.
Also since so many kits are on their way an easy compatibility test is to soak the material in the substance for extended time and measure the swell. Also note any color change in the fluid. I would need to verify the exposure time recommended to check but I think it's somewhere around 72hrs to max a couple of weeks so not crazy long and probably checking at 24, 48 and 72hrs plus a longer time, like 1 to 2 weeks, would help tell how aggressive the attack is. My thought being how well was the material in the kit thought out. The exposure would even work on the parts which broke during assembly.
Scott
Antoon
The seal for the injector to rail is definitely an oring seal . If you look again at the parts page you will see the oring listed .
Might I suggest that the shape of your original seals is the result of the oring being squeezed into the rail socket , between two flat surfaces , and after 40 years it has set to that shape .
Phil
Phill and Scott,
That means that the measurements that I took in fact are worth nothing and should be discarded.
The current size or shape of the seal doesn't say anything about the original size and shape when they were installed.
Antoon
I'm surprised. If that's compression set it seemed to have done an excellent job of creating something which looks like an original shape. That said if Phil found an original reference then my eyes are playing tricks on me.
Let us know how the install goes. Based on your prior experience I would try using something compatible as a lubricant. If those o-rings are the correct size they likely rolled during assembly.
Scott
My new seals came in yesterday and the 10 sets I bought are definitely from different batches.
We have a long weekend coming (Monday is our king's birthday) so I will find time for a second (or third ;)) try.
As lubricant, I will use Vaseline again, but I will use more on the top and I will mount the top first. And I will come back with the result.
The package on the left shows 350 and VINs B, R, 8. i know "R" is normally used for the Oldsmobile 350, "N" for the diesel and I think some years used "L" for the Chevy 350. I don't know the "B" though. And was the "8" just to designate 8cyl or was it in some of the VINs as the designation for the engine type?
Not directly related but since the packaging showed the designations and there are a lot of knowledgeable people here I thought I would ask.
Those arrived pretty fast it seems. Anxious to hear how it goes.
Scott
I can only tell that the 'B' is de Olds 350 in the Seville. See the VIN in my car: https://www.specialtysales.com/vehicles/1978-cadillac-seville-13299
And the '8' is the 350 EFI (Cal only) that was used in 1980 in the Seville (and maybe in other Cadillacs).
Quote from: 78EleganteI can only tell that the 'B' is de Olds 350 in the Seville. See the VIN in my car: https://www.specialtysales.com/vehicles/1978-cadillac-seville-13299
And the '8' is the 350 EFI (Cal only) that was used in 1980 in the Seville (and maybe in other Cadillacs).
Also used the same equipment in the California 1980 Eldorado. Bruce Roe
Finally got my 500 sorted. Found 2 injector connectors not fully snapped on. Always good to walk away and come back later when something’s not right.
As for seals, I did use the Felpro kit for the injector and manifold seals and used the “Standard†kit SK59 for the copper washers and top hat seals.
When I removed my fuel rails, it did have the washers installed already. Also, when reinstalling the rail assemblies, you should have the injectors already set in the rail, also have the electrical connections oriented in the correct direction for minimal handling once installed...
So, a quick update to finish the sory:
Yesterday I had my second try.
I lubed the O-rings with Vaseline and wiggled and turned them carefully in the fuel rail first before pushing them in the manifold.
After tightening everything I switched the ignition to start the fuel pumps and immediately I heart fuel coming out somewhere.
It was the number 7 injector (the most difficult to reach) that was still leaking........
So, third try. Replaced the O-ring of the number 7 injector again and this time it looked good. So I started the engine and it fired right up!
Here is a little write up for future reference.
To take out the injectors I found it necessary to loosen the fuel rail at the point behind number 7, where the rail coming from number 8 attaches. This 'breaks' the circle of the fuel rail going around the 8 injectors, giving you some flexibility in the fuel rail.
I also loosened the two rear bolts of the throttle body (they hold two brackets that prevent you from lifting the fuel rail) and a clamp on the front side of the engine which holds the vacuum line going to the fuel pressure regulator (this gives you a little space to lift the fuel rail in the front).
Of coarse you need to loosen the four clamps that hold the injectors down.
Installing is the other way around.
When installing the injectors, do the top side first after lubing the O-rings with Vaseline (the clamps will prevent them from falling out) and then push the rail, per side, with four injectors in place.
Bruce Roe advised me to use the Fel-Pro ES 72099 seal kit and I advice to buy at least two sets when planning this job. I took me three attempts to get it done and you don's want install seals for a second time.
In my first attempt I used the Standard SK2 kit. I cannot say if they are good or not because I broke most of the O-rings due to a wrong installation order.
Both the Standard SK2 kit and the Fel-Pro ES 72099 do not include the copper seals for the fuel rail. I only disconnected that fuel rail on one place and it seems that I reconnected it without leaks, without installing a new copper seal.
All in all I think everybody can do this job. It is not difficult and now that I have done it more than once I would estimate that it can be done in two hours.
The tools I used were a 1/2" and a 7/16" socket with different extensions (especially the clamp that holds the vacuum line on the front of the motor is a bit difficult to reach) and a 16mm wrench (I don't have imperial wrenches yet) for the fuel rail.
Some tubing wrenches are good for fuel rails, I do not recall
any being metric on my 79. Bruce Roe
That doesn't sound too different from more modern systems other than it sounds like there are fewer things in the way here. That's usually how it goes. Most of them seem to cooperate and go in and out but there always seems to be one connection that just won't.
Did you do anything to clean the injector holes in the intake? The last car I did there was a pretty nasty crusty ridge built up just above where the oring was in the bore. I used a wire brush on a dremel to clean it up. You can get brass ones if you are worried about damaging an aluminum intake. Make sure you get the chuck good and tight. If the brush is larger than the bore and you drop all the way through you don't want the bit to fall off and into the intake.
@Bruce, I ordered imperial wrenches today. For my next job on the car ;)
@TJ Hopland, no, I didn't clean the inside. I should have taken off the complete fuel rail to inspect the inside. With the fuel rail still installed, it seems impossible to me to reach in there with a dremel.
Quote from: 78Elegante on April 28, 2020, 12:04:37 PM
@Bruce, I ordered imperial wrenches today. For my next job on the car ;)
@TJ Hopland, no, I didn't clean the inside. I should have taken off the complete fuel rail to inspect the inside. With the fuel rail still installed, it seems impossible to me to reach in there with a dremel.
The nut that secures the fuel pressure regulator is a 24mm
To follow-up on this I had been in discussion with an o-ring material specialist for the FIV and for alcohol containing gasoline they recommended Fluorosilicone o-rings (temps down to the automotive standard of -40). Generally that material seems to be color coded blue. Based on the Felpro kit the top o-ring seems to be a "dash 11" or 011. The material has a temperature range of -80 to 400F.
The Felpro kit which I bought has a "square", actually rectangular, seal for the manifold end (~4.66mm tall, 2.5mm wall and OD ~14mm) . Phil mentioned above that the parts manual does call for an o-ring. Did it ever give a size? If someone knows what was the kit which had the "standard" round o-ring and what size was it? The Felpro rectangular seal was tall and had a thick cross section making me wonder how a standard would work. It almost seemed like to duplicate the rectangular seal you might be able to stack o-ring, metal custom spacer followed by a second oring. I've never seen that done but it seemed like it might work. If the kit which had the round lower o-ring works then it makes an acceptable size more obvious but then not so obvious why the Felpro kit has a rectangular cross section. The Flourosilicone o-rings are not available in every size and I saw nothing in that rectangular shape in any material which I looked at.
My thought is that maybe the replacements are needed frequently because the material selection could be better.
Scott
78Elegante
Glad to see you got your issues sorted out. This is beyond my pay grade so I am looking for a local mechanic that is experienced with these old beasts. I don't have one yet but negotiating on a low mileage 76 EFI Eldo convertible that has been sitting in a barn since the late 70's.
My friend who owns it got it in inheritance and while he is on vacation I am looking what I will be faced with as well as sourcing parts, I wish it was a carb but it is what it it is. Most people say don't walk away run but i have never been one to do what the masses say. Other than dropping the tank and replacing the fuel pumps (I hear there are two one in trunk) and fuel sending unit, change out the fluids and the usual stuff from when a car has been sitting except the brakes, that will be the last thing after i get it running.
Luckily I am fortunate to have a back up plan in terms of a 77 eldorado donor car with carb but I prefer to keep it original if at all possible.
This car was purchased from the original owner and I don't know if it was a special order car because the air filter and valve covers are chrome instead of the gold and blue? Any tips and advice appreciated.
I am only considering this because it is a convertible and is a original survivor.
Thanks,
Dennis
Hi Dennis,
Once everything has been checked out I think you will like the EFI system.
You mentioned the fuel pump in the tank. When you have that one changed be certain to use specifically fuel hose rated as submersible. Not all fuel hose is.
I'm not exactly certain with the '76 but I believe the second fuel pump will be on the frame rail someplace.
Bruce Roe "Bcroe" recommends an external fuel pump relay. The original is inside the ECU but the relay can see relatively high current and it has a habit of burning one of the ECU pins. Bruce's relay prevents that issue. I did a write-up on the forum for my 1979. I was able to do everything, with the exception of 1 ground, through the factory wiring harness plugs. Here's the link:
https://forums.cadillaclasalleclub.org/index.php?topic=153100.msg
There is also a small section of vacuum line going to the ECU. Verify that line hasn't cracked or hardened. That line supplies the vacuum signal to the MAP sensor which is inside the ECU. If the ECU thinks there is low vacuum, result of a leaking line, then the ECU will interpret that as the engine under heavy load. I would check/change all of the vacuum lines on a car which sat that long but there are two other locations which you should pay particular attention to: One being the fuel pressure regulator vacuum signal, near the front right corner of the throttle body, and the second being the ones interacting with the EGR.
Check your coolant and air sensor. They are the 2 wire sensors and tell the ECU the engine temp. Using those sensors the ECU also adjusts the mixture. The sensors have a tendency of going bad but they are very easy to check with an Ohm meter. I will paste the graph below. If they are bad I developed a replacement.
I also created a replacement for the Fast Idle Valve. This device allows high idle upon cold start and reduces the idle after about 1.5 to 5minutes to allow the engine to warm-up enough to run without stalling.
You mentioned the injector seals already. Obviously I would change the fuel filter. Other than the other normal things you would do with car which sat for an extended period I think the key items are covered.
You may not need them but just so you know Bruce also had the TB gaskets professionally made. You need to save your original steel core but he has replacements for the gasket material portion.
Again once you get more experience turning the key, waiting 3 seconds, and then cranking with essentially perfect starting each time will allow you to appreciate the system.
One question for you. I've been looking for someone with an early 1976 who could test fit a sensor connector only used on 1975.5 through early 1976 cars. In 1976 the connector changed to the round version probably because it was better at keeping moisture out. That said I went through the effort of making a replacement for the earlier connector but I've not found anyone who still has a car which uses it. Because of that I was limited to designing the connector without the mating part. See below.
Scott
Based on discussions and experience, I have recently revised
my Fuel Pump Relay Kit design from the 2010 article. I have added
a second schematic wiring drawing that more accurately reflects the
different fusing arrangement of the 1979-80 front wheel drive cars,
with the 5.7L gas engine. In both drawings I have also reversed the
relay coil wires, to be consistent with wiring standard DIN 72552.
One relay coil wire is grounded, but I wanted to avoid cutting another
wire by connecting to the ECU ground wire, which is actually on the
drawings. So just a ground lug is shown. In fact the ECU case might
be used for ground. Beware that some brackets are insulated and
may NOT be a ground.
My revised instructions do not mention shimming an original Fast Idle
Valve, as Scott has provided an improved modern direct replacement.
Perhaps Scott will come up with an entirely better, fuel compatible
injector seal solution. Earlier I tried a few available market items.
I tried AIRTEX injector seal parts, but the O rings leaked fuel.
I found the FEL-PRO ES 72099 kit with 8 O rings & 8 manifold
seals are a good fit. HOWEVER, these do not include the clamp
"top hat" or copper washers.
NAPA 2-12086 has all the parts, but only for one injector, so you
need 8 of them. The bad news is, the 2-12086 has a bag inside
which is marked SA-15018, IDENTICAL to the AIRTEX kit, so
they may have the same problem.
I measured rubber diameter and approx outer ring dia
.070" 0.445" FEL-PRO
.065" 0.445 NAPA
.065" 0.440 AIRTEX
My conclusion: use the FEL-PRO for the O ring & manifold seals,
use the others to get the rest of the parts as needed. I tend to
smear some vasoline on the rubber to let it slide into place. I put
4 injectors individually into half the fuel rail, then wiggle the set
into the intake manifold and tie it all together. Trying to push the
fuel rail onto injectors, the O ring would be sheared off and leak.
The blue and white service book Scott shows above is essential to
dealing with the 70s Cad EFI systems. I bought what seems to be
a new reprint version of it on Evil Bay. Bruce Roe
item number:165136935730
1976 1977 1978 Cadillac Fuel Injection Diagnosis Manual EFI Shop Service Book
Thanks for your reply Scott and insight, that is the challenge getting from A-Z and most importantly finding a local mechanic that is familiar with these old systems and can get me there, fortunately I do have a couple of leads. I appreciate yours, Bruce Roe's and others input.
Now that I have determined that the mileage is original 9,988 I am going to get down dirty and gett a better look and pics of the undercarriage especially since it has been parked on the ground's floor in the barn and making her look older than her age.
That would suck to have so many cars you can't even drive them right? LOL
Happy New Year!
Dennis
Hi Dennis,
One piece of advice I try to give people is focus on only 1 special car. People probably gave me the same advice and either I didn't hear it or didn't listen. Now I'm too attached to all of them. The problem is I always feel like there is something which needs attention and there just isn't time for everything. Evan when I look at the photo I cannot help but wonder what year the 79-85 dark red Toronado I see is and if the story is the similar to your Eldorado.
I'm glad you have some leads. That's a very low mile car.
Let us know if you need any help. I would be interested to know what connector style your car has.
Happy New Year!
Scott
At this point Scott most of the other cars are running fine at least they were when I put them away for the winter or should require little maintenance, the 75 Cad Sedan I couldn't pass up with low 33xxx miles with the vinyl top delete (I don't ever recall seeing one without the top before) is my main one I want to get on the road as soon as the weather permits to get her home.
With that said the 76 convertible would be my main focus. My only challenge now is getting it at a good price and figuring out what that price is. My friend has gave me some pretty good deals on most of the cars, some I paid a little more than I wanted to but when I look at the fact they are a bird in the hand vs jumping on a plane to go look and shipping costs plus my time that outweighs the extra $$$. This one is the one I just don't know what it's worth in current condition without lowballing him.
I will definitely reach out if I am able to get it at a reasonable price based on a ton of maintenance along that is requred.
Thanks. :)
Quote from: 79 Eldorado on January 02, 2022, 02:17:52 PM
Hi Dennis,
One piece of advice I try to give people is focus on only 1 special car. People probably gave me the same advice and either I didn't hear it or didn't listen. Now I'm too attached to all of them. The problem is I always feel like there is something which needs attention and there just isn't time for everything. Evan when I look at the photo I cannot help but wonder what year the 79-85 dark red Toronado I see is and if the story is the similar to your Eldorado.
I'm glad you have some leads. That's a very low mile car.
Let us know if you need any help. I would be interested to know what connector style your car has.
Happy New Year!
Scott