The time has come where I think the intake manifold needs to be pulled and repaired. I've suspected for some time that I had a leak developing somewhere in there (throaty sound under hood which has gotten louder, smells when driving down the road; but after a six hour run the other day, it has become pretty obvious. I shot some Marvel Mystery Oil down the carb and watched white smoke roll out from the valley under the carb by the firewall.
I think I'm going to buy some Pyro Putty to have on hand to even out any pitting on the block.
Should I get copper, composite, or try the Remflex gaskets? I'm pretty much leaning towards the ones from Olsen with the block offs.
If there is thinning along the wall of the intake manifold, how do I remedy that, or does it even matter if I use the blocked off gaskets?
Permatex or no?
Should I replace the bolts and studs, and if so, where should I get them? I've searched thirty pages of hits on this forum and most of the information is several years old and things may have changed.
Any other issues I should be aware of?
Since the intake and exhaust manifolds interface to the block parallel from side to side (vs at an angle on newer V8s), they can easily be milled flat without messing up the geometry where they attach to the block. This will solve any erosion issues on those parts. If the block has major erosion then you either remove, disassemble and mill the block (lots and lots of work) or try the Pyro Putty solution just to the block side. Since I had my engine out I had that deck milled flat.
I used the Olson gaskets with the cross over blocked off - these only come in the composite design and they recommend no sealant.
That is a pretty heavy wall on the intake manifold cross over. I doubt it is eroded through.
I was able to reuse my old studs. I just sandblasted, chased threads and repainted. Reinstall the studs with a sealant as they terminate into the water jacket. I used Permatex #2 so if I got any movement when re-torquing the seal would not break (same as head bolts). I replaced the 4 intake manifold bolts where the cross over goes with new stainless steel ones (parts book says they were originally SS). Since you are taking off the exhaust manifold, plan on heli-coiling the four threaded bolt holes for the cross pipe attachment and install new bolts and anti-seize. When reassembling the exhaust, install the cross pipe loosely and tighten it last (once the manifolds are located and snugged to the block).
Scott
Thanks again for the advice Scott. I've already to the Pyro Putty on the way, and placed an order with Olsens for the block off gasket kit. I know that at least the exhaust manifold has been off at some point because there is some Permatex drippings around the port edges. My bet is that this isn't the first time that this (or a similar) problem has cropped up before with this engine. As a result, I'm hoping those will at least come off without too much hassle. I plan on soaking them down with PBlaster for a couple days beforehand. Ditto for the other bolts, but who knows what I'll get into with them.
Of course, now you all have me worrying about the idler gear and making me wonder if I ought to look into that while I'm under there. :-\
All things considered though, maybe I'd better leave well enough alone with that for a while. I don't really need to drop another $1000 on it at this time if it isn't an absolute necessity. At least in theory it should be easier to take down the manifolds in the future should I need to. Which, if I were able to find a better set of exhaust manifolds than mine I would do in a heartbeat.
Don't let that bronze idler bother you. I would suggest you check your distributor support shaft for excessive play and if it's bad, re-bush it and move on. If you want to take a peak at the idler, then you are mostly there with the manifolds off but it would have to look really bad for me to decide actually replace it. It's going to wear over time - so what. I really doubt many cars or the WWII tanks were breaking down due to a bronze gear failures. I will say that it's a bit different when you just spent several thousand dollars rebuilding an engine, everything is new and you have all those parts in your hand already. At that point you want everything 100% like new.
Regarding the exhaust manifolds....you could do an eBay search and see if any listed there are better than what you have. I would still heli-coil those 4 threads though.
Scott
I bought a nice set of exhaust manifolds off of eBay with nice ceramic coating. I used the Olsen manifold with the block off. Bill Hirsch engine paint for the intake and block. I PB blast the bolts for a week. Lucky to find no large rusty burnt areas, just a cracked gasket. Uneventful instal and no more exhaust smell and it is super quiet. Take your time and enjoy working on your LaSalle.
Rich Iannelli
....Hope I didn't cause undue concern about the idler gear.....
( but I was given some good advice ....pull the distributor tower
and check it visually.)
About the manifold exhaust leak ....we went
thru this about 2 years ago on our 1937 series 60
The leak was where people predicted....the surface of the left
entrance to the exhaust cross over ( part of the intake manifold) that goes under the carb.
And,,,the corresponding surface of the block itself was also damaged.
Both surfaces had to be repaired.
In our case....we had no trouble getting the manifolds off and on.
Perhaps because our engine had been rebuilt maybe 6 years ago and so
everything was "clean".
We repaired both surfaces using something similar to Pyro Putty.
And then to this we applied a thin coat of a sort of high temperature
silicone based permatex
Both of these came from the nearby auto store.
This seemed to have worked well so far..... Of course it's only
been about two years.........
Jack Worstell
PS...the exhaust manifold....we took it off as one unit...
in our case we didn't have to separate the three pieces.
After consideration, I think per the advice here, I'm just going to leave well enough alone for now in regards to the idler gear. So far as I know it isn't giving me a problem and there's no sense in poking the bear.
I had already been shopping for new manifolds on Ebay and even found a pretty nice looking set. Unfortunately, they are the wrong ones as mine has the choke stove arrangement on the drivers side.
I have now determined in my own mind that this is the problem I'm having. Not only is the sound and smell pretty rough, but the engine is acting up by sputtering and missing especially under load. It certainly wasn't doing that last week and I have a hard time imagining it's a coincidence.
I might be overly optimistic, but it looks like most of the bolts except for on the crossover are in pretty decent shape. I've shot them with penetrating oil and will continue to do so over the next few days. I've also got some Pyro Putty on order as well as a set of gaskets with the block outs from Olsen's on the way.
In going through all the threads on this forum, I've come up with the following information. Should they need replacing, the studs for holding down the exhaust manifold are 4 7/8†long; Grade 5; threaded 7/8†with 3/8 X 16 (NC) threads on bottom, threaded 3/4†with 3/8 X 24 (NF) threads on top; qty. 8; torqued to 25-30 foot pounds. The bolts for holding down the intake manifold are stainless steel 3/8†X 16 (NC) X unknown length; torqued to 25-30 foot pounds. The bolts for the exhaust crossover are Grade 5, 3/8†X 16 (NC) X unknown length; 4 qty.; torqued to 25-30 foot pounds. Does that sound about right?
Finally, if they need it, am I better served finding someone to mill the bottom side of the intake manifold to even it up, or is it safe enough to be done on a belt sander as I have seen recommended?
You can do it on a belt sander. Just be sure the bed is large enough to accommodate the entire length of the manifold. Make certain to keep it even while sanding and very little pressure, just enough to clean all ports evenly. Like wise on the exhaust manifolds. They should be checked with a straight edge for warping. Harry
So I decided to go out today and start dismantling the manifolds. Everything was coming off so easily, no muss, no fuss...except for one of the intake bolts...I monkeyed around and snapped it off >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
Guess I'm going to have to try and drill it out and hope I can salvage the threads. Failing that, guess I'll learn how to do my first helicoil.
Anyway, everything else went great. The gaskets, if you want to call them that were a mess. Coming apart, Permatex mixed in, who knows what all was going on in there. The valley is a mess of oil, grime, and exhaust residue. Believe it or not, it was cleaned and repainted by myself two years ago, and looked pretty good considering I didn't really take anything off but the generator. Just a testimony to what all was going wrong in there. Here are some before and after pictures of what found. Clearly, there has been a bunch of blow-by at the center port on the drivers side. Because it was such a mess pulling it all off I can't say if it was a gasket failure or erosion though.
To me, it looks like there is a bit of a beveled edge along the center ports on both the driver and passenger sides, and on the block and intake manifold side too. I have included pictures of everything showing how it looked when I pulled the intake, as well as after very lightly hitting it with a wire toothbrush to knock away loose residue, oil, and soot.
Certainly, it doesn't have a perfect, freshly milled surface like Scott's does, but in some ways, it looks like it was cast that way. Does anyone have any observations they could offer?
There's a fella on YouTube whose mission it is to test all manner of tools and product. He did a test on rust remover and of course included PB blaster. His results showed a mixture of 50% acetone and 50% transmission fluid was superior to any other rust remover on the market. I've used the mixture very successfully over the past year.
Starting cleanup of the block. Ignore the mess, I was interrupted by a squall line and had to quit and wasn't able to finish or clean up.
Anyone have any suggestions as to if or where I should apply Pyro Putty or milling? I have labeled the photos so you know what you're looking at.
Part 2
Right, Carl, I first touted the 50% acetone/50% trans fluid to break loose rusted parts here some years ago --- not that I was the first to ever come up with it --- but only that it has been out there for a long time and I too heard it from someone else. Trouble is, those of us who are here all the time (and read all of the posts) see these things, but those who only come here for a specific reason miss a lot of the good info that gets passed along. Another good post that gets lost over the years and should be in an archive file.
PB Blaster, used by many, is only so-so compared to 50/50 acetone and trans. fluid.
Part 3
Quote from: carlhungness on May 24, 2020, 04:14:19 PM
There's a fella on YouTube whose mission it is to test all manner of tools and product. He did a test on rust remover and of course included PB blaster. His results showed a mixture of 50% acetone and 50% transmission fluid was superior to any other rust remover on the market. I've used the mixture very successfully over the past year.
That is interesting. How would you apply it? Or is it necessary to dip the part into it?
I have been using salt of all things. Of course it is mixed with vinegar. One gallon of vinegar to one cup of salt and you can immerse your part in it. Once you remove it from the solution, you must dunk it into a solution of water and baking soda to neutralize the vinegar and salt solution.
However it's not a good idea to put aluminum in it. It will destroy aluminum.
I discovered it when I was looking for something to clean up the evaporator core on my 56 A/C system. It works great for copper, but again, you have to neutralize it afterwards.
I only discovered that it worked on steel out of curiosity. I really didn't expect it to work because of the salt, but it did.
For what it's worth.
Rick
And I thought PB Blaster was the best thing I've ever used so far. I must try this acetone mix out soon.
Thank you for the tip.
"That is interesting. How would you apply it? Or is it necessary to dip the part into it?"
I mix it 50/50 in a small pump type squirt can, suppose you could mix it and brush it on with a brush also. Don't bother mixing a lot of it because the acetone evaporates off pretty quick, but that is probably why it works so well, the acetone acts as the carrier and brings the thin mixture to the site and then evaporates and leaves the tranny fluid to lubricate.
There are other things that work better than PB Blaster, Mouse Milk is another, but acetone and trans. fluid is usually best.
Just to clarify, I misspoke about using PBlaster, I actually used Liquid Wrench. If you look into a guy on Youtube who has a channel called Project Farm https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUEob2oAKVs , his testing shows that Liquid Wrench is a better penetrating oil than the ATF/Acetone combo. I suppose others mileage may vary, but I would doubt that the numbers would be different enough to make much of a difference. For me, I'd just as soon buy an aerosol can and be done with it rather than mixing home brew.
Regardless, I'd rather keep this on point with my manifold issues. What's done is done, I sheared the bolt off and will have to deal with it as I go along. If we want to discuss which penetrating solution is better than another that is best served in it's own thread.
Mouse milk? That's another one that I have never heard of until just the other day. Somebody mentioned it on one of these threads, but I can't recall which one it was.
So is this something you can actually buy off the shelf?
Point taken.
Mouse Milk is used a lot in aviation circles, you can get it at Aircraft Spruce & Supply, Chief Aircraft, Sky Geek and many others --- including eBay --- and probably Amazon.
Another good penetrant is Deep Creep by Seafoam.
Many thanks.
Rick
Please gentlemen, focus....I've got a problem I'm trying to remedy and I'd rather not see this get sidetracked with penetrating oil silliness. If you want to discuss such things, by all means please start your own thread. I promise I will find it as interesting as anyone. But this is about rebuilding a manifold for a flathead V8 engine.
That being said I now find that someone, at some point has drilled a hole into the center port area of my exhaust manifold where the alignment stud fits. Looks like they were drilling another stud hole for some reason and then punched another straight on through original spot to the outside. Guess I'll dab some of the Pyro Putty in there to seal it off unless someone can give me a good reason it should be there.
So if I'm reading this correctly, there is supposed to be a hole there, but they elongated it by trying to drill out something else?
If the hole is not supposed to be there, can you tap threads into it and install a plug perhaps as a temporary fix, until you can get another one, or do you want to repair this one as it's in good condition.
I thought I could see some flaking of the metal on the inside of the port. I don't know if that's what it actually is, or if it really matters much. Just an observation.
If the hole is supposed to be there but is only enlarged by the previous repair attempt, can it be welded closed and redrilled to the proper size and position?
Of course to weld it, it would have to be blasted clean of all rust and flaking metal before the attempt is made.
I'm sure it's not a common part anymore, if it ever was. I wish you luck on your repair. That's a great car.
Rick
If you look at the first picture, the dark gray area is where a factory hole was bored. It is there to align on a stud mounted to the block. It looks to me like someone drilled a hole all the way through the center of that for who knows what reason, then shifted over slightly and started to drill another hole for the stud to fit into (the rusted area), but quit about 1/4" into it. I can think of no reason for it, and honestly, it would be covered by the gasket and so forth. It probably wouldn't hurt anything to leave it alone, but since I've already got some Pyro Putty coming, I might as well just fill it in with that and let it be.
Gotcha, I misunderstood. I thought that it was perhaps one for a mounting bolt.
Is it possible that your manifold is slightly warped and would not sit properly on the short alignment stub/pin, therefore necessitating the need to move the hole?
Since it's not actually being held onto the engine by something going through it at that point, your putty idea seems like a reasonable approach.
Does the manifold expand and contract enough with the heating and cooling that it might need this larger hole to accommodate this? Just a thought.
Rick
PS: I recall that some of the 6 cylinder engines that GM made for Chevrolet and GMC used mounting points between the intake and exhaust ports and just alignment pins on the ends that would allow for the expansion and contractions.
Quote from: USNTar on May 24, 2020, 01:14:46 AM
I had already been shopping for new manifolds on Ebay and even found a pretty nice looking set. Unfortunately, they are the wrong ones as mine has the choke stove arrangement on the drivers side.
Jon,
I had the same issue and just drilled and tapped the bosses on the driver's side exhaust manifold and switched sides for the heat riser so it ended up on the driver's side. On the exhaust manifold alignment pin hole, that would be easy enough to fill in with braze and re-drill. Not sure pyro putty would hold up. The block side of an exhaust port runs a lot cooler than the manifold itself. I'm really not sure how critical that pin is and whether it is used for alignment or actually holds the manifold from shifting.
As for your snapped off bolt. What I would do is soak the area with the penetrant of choice, then take a 1/2" nut, place it over the 3/8" broken bolt and MIG weld down through the center of the nut onto that broken bolt. Then put a wrench on it while still hot and the broken bolt will probably come right out. All you need is one of the cheap portable 110v welders. If you don't own one, hopefully a neighbor or friend does.
What you are seeing is oxidation erosion over the years vs a bevel. I had some of the same and it was still evident on the passenger side crossover point even after the mill work (zoom in on my picture a little). The reason I milled my intake manifold was to get that eroded crossover port cleaned up well to provide the gasket enough compression to seal against the block port, which should be fine even with that narrower margin. A little pyro putty on the eroded area would help.
Scott
Quote from: Cadman-iac on May 24, 2020, 10:08:05 PM
Is it possible that your manifold is slightly warped and would not sit properly on the short alignment stub/pin, therefore necessitating the need to move the hole?
PS: I recall that some of the 6 cylinder engines that GM made for Chevrolet and GMC used mounting points between the intake and exhaust ports and just alignment pins on the ends that would allow for the expansion and contractions.
It's a possibility I've thought of. I'm going to do a dry fit tomorrow and see if it lines up okay. I know the stud itself hasn't been redrilled/repositioned.
Quote from: LaSalle5019 on May 24, 2020, 10:21:47 PM
Jon,
I had the same issue and just drilled and tapped the bosses on the driver's side exhaust manifold and switched sides for the heat riser so it ended up on the driver's side. On the exhaust manifold alignment pin hole, that would be easy enough to fill in with braze and re-drill. Not sure pyro putty would hold up. The block side of an exhaust port runs a lot cooler than the manifold itself. I'm really not sure how critical that pin is and whether it is used for alignment or actually holds the manifold from shifting.
Mounting the choke stove cover on the drivers side isn't a big deal. The problem is that everything I find has a big rectangular bolster along the passenger side for what I presume to be a Stromburg arrangement fits. From about every picture I can find, pretty much every 39 LaSalle running a Carter carb doesn't have that bolster on the passenger side. So that's kind of a deal breaker for me unless somebody can demonstrate to me that 39 LaSalles with a Carter carb sometimes left the factory with that bolster on the passenger side. I would be thrilled with that. There is a fantastic set on Ebay right now and the price is right, but it has that bolster on the passenger side. >:(
Quote from: LaSalle5019 on May 24, 2020, 10:21:47 PM
As for your snapped off bolt. What I would do is soak the area with the penetrant of choice, then take a 1/2" nut, place it over the 3/8" broken bolt and MIG weld down through the center of the nut onto that broken bolt. Then put a wrench on it while still hot and the broken bolt will probably come right out. All you need is one of the cheap portable 110v welders. If you don't own one, hopefully a neighbor or friend does.
Unfortunately I don't. :( It was on my agenda to buy one of those small, portable acetylene kits this spring. Growing up, dad insisted I learn to arc and acetylene weld, as well as blacksmith to some degree. I was probably the only kid in the county to have his own anvil and forge by the age of 10 ;D I consider the acetylene to be the most useful system for my general purposes of working on the car. But, I got laid off with this virus business back in March and haven't had a regular income since. Sooooo....that got back burnered. I'm probably just going to drill and re-tap or chase it. I've had pretty good luck with that before. Even had to do it for the heater line outlet on my left head. I note that it is on a tab or wing that extends out, so it's not like boring directly into the block or anything.
Quote from: LaSalle5019 on May 24, 2020, 10:21:47 PM
What you are seeing is oxidation erosion over the years vs a bevel. I had some of the same and it was still evident on the passenger side crossover point even after the mill work (zoom in on my picture a little). The reason I milled my intake manifold was to get that eroded crossover port cleaned up well to provide the gasket enough compression to seal against the block port, which should be fine even with that narrower margin. A little pyro putty on the eroded area would help.
Gotcha. I guess I'll go ahead and find a machine shop that can mill the faces on the exhaust and intake manifolds tomorrow. By the way, interestingly enough, the four bolts holding down the crossover pipe broke loose just as easy as you please leaving the threads in good shape. I was shocked.
You could stick weld that nut on too, but drill and tap is fine. If the threads look bad, I would definitely heli-coil one or more. It is a very easy process. I had one thread that was a bit marginal and it ended up pulling out when I installed the intake manifold in the middle of reassembly >:(. I had a longer SS bolt on hand and was able to get a nut on the back side - problem solved.
I see the issue you refer to on the exhaust manifold. Shown is what I thought you might have. Along with the manifolds that I had which, as you can see, have bosses on each side. I think the bolster design was post 1939.
Scott
Quote from: LaSalle5019 on May 25, 2020, 08:01:32 AM
I see the issue you refer to on the exhaust manifold. Shown is what I thought you might have. Along with the manifolds that I had which, as you can see, have bosses on each side. I think the bolster design was post 1939.
Scott
Nah, I've got the setup shown in the photos below. It is consistent with what I'm seeing in photos of other 39's. Granted, there may be variations, I honestly don't know enough about it, but I'm just playing it safe. I too suspect that those are for later flatheads. Mine work for now, they're just not pretty, but if I find a good set, I'll probably hop on them. I've also got feelers out for those repro choke stove plates that were offered sometime back.
Today I was able to get out there and more or less finish cleaning up the mating surface on the block. I also cleaned most of the crap and crud out of the valley. Makes me sick, when I had it all cleaned up and painted you could have ate off of it. I'll do some more final cleaning when I'm done surfacing it. Also, I was very lucky and was able to drill out that bolt hole. Started off with a 1/8" bit and worked my way up to 5/16" then ran a tap down into it. Feels pretty good and looked to be straight and centered, plus I got quite a bit of rust residue out of it so I'm going to call it a success. If the threads give out when torquing it down I'll probably just do what you did and get a longer bolt, put a nut on it, and call it a day.
I wasn't thinking about today being a holiday, so the machine shops were closed. I'll try to drop my manifolds off tomorrow morning and see if someone can shave them down for me. Hoping I can get them back in a day or two. I was able to get by an Ace Hardware and pick up all new bolts. I'm leaving the studs alone. None of them loosened when I was removing the clamps, so unless I have to pull them, I'm going to clean up the threads and leave them be unless they interfere with my touching up the surfacing. I also cleaned up my carburetor which had some gunk buildup on it too, and also painted the manifold clamps. One other thing, I also stuck some modeling clay up in that mysterious hole that had been drilled in my exhaust manifold and dry fitted it to the block. The stud fit perfectly into the factory hole, so there's no warping and I still have no idea why someone would just randomly start drilling into it. Maybe a machinist at the the factory wasn't paying attention?
I expect my Pyro Putty to arrive tomorrow so I'll be able to get started on that. Hopefully my gaskets will arrive too, and with any luck, I might be able to get it all put back together by the weekend.
This morning I was able to finish getting everything put back together, and WOW! It sounds like a whole different engine. Gone is the tik-tik-tik that I always felt was oil starvation to the lifters it's had since I got it three years ago, gone is the roaring sound from under the hood, gone are the gas fumes, and gone is the stuttering it started last week when I figured out something needed to be done. It was a pricey and painful experience (neighbors probably learned some new words :D ), but I think worth every penny and effort. I have no doubt this situation was brewing since the day I brought it home and finally the dam broke a couple of weeks ago.
I hate to be overly optimistic, but I wouldn't be surprised if I use less gas and oil now. Ultimately, I really hope it might stabilize some of the overheating issues I have been fighting for a long while.
Excellent. Glad it all came together.
Scott