Cadillac & LaSalle Club Discussion Forum

No politics please.

The vehicle manufacturers and the government are making noises about making all new vehicles electric by 2035.

I remember back in 1975 when they stopped making leaded gas that there were people predicting the demise of all antique cars.  Gonna kill the hobby they said.

We are all still here.

So if you have a collector cars

I would think gas prices will rise, due to increased regulation of fossil fuels, lower demand for gasoline and less crude output.

In 15 years will we be at the same place in our lives with these cars?  Maybe not.  That will lead to lower values on cars with ICE engines..

I'm not a fan of the direction this is going....  There's no recharging infrastructure, let alone the time needed for a recharge.

???

Whenever I see posts on this topic my mind immediately gravitates to the 1957 Plymouth that was buried in a courthouse lawn when new only to be opened 50 years later and awarded to a heir who guessed the population of the town 50 years later most closely.  The same people who thought that was a smart idea also thought they should put a 55 gallon drum of fuel in the trunk since we wouldn't be using it in 2007.

The math doesn't work.  Before I left the NE to move to the SE I worked in a plant that installed the largest solar panel array in the state.  This was about 2009 and it was big money and subsidized heavily by the government (aka us).  The idea was we could run the plant during curtailment in the summer months and sell back to the grid.  Well, when the day came to use it all we could run was the front office and maintenance shop - big win for $8M.

All the cars I see being touted are toys... 700 hp trucks and Mustangs.  When someone creates a modern day model T then worry but, I'm not seeing any single moms of three whose is  a waitress buying an EV anytime soon.  Don't forget all the industries and other uses for fuel.  I pitty the logger hauling a 200 lb battery in the air to cut a tree.

I think it will become rare and expensive... but we're a long ways from that.  I'm sure the bill will get passed before its read but once the "scientists" have done their part the real world engineers have to figure it out.

I mentioned it on another thread.  I’ll be looking at a CNG conversion to keep driving it all else fails. 

Even though no politics.  What will happen is that gas powered cars will be phased out slowly.  Be it via taxes or just new made up laws.  We will be the monkey in this and be moved along. 
Some of the goal is NO GAS POWERED CAR SALES by ‘35.  But that doesn’t mean the gas car will not be around.
If Diesel and CNG still exists in 15 years I think we may be ok for a bit. 

It’s just exponential growth of the EV without seeing what all the creation of batteries/trash will cause. 

I would say for about 50% of the members here. Will unfortunately not be around to worry about it. 

I would say enjoy driving your vintage car as much as possible the next 10 years. 

The auto industry is under ENORMOUS pressure on a global scale to largely eliminate fossil fuels by around 2035.
It is going to happen.
Here's what else WILL happen:

1) Charging infrastructure will improve drastically to become roughly equivalent to a gas station on every corner, AND in your garage. It will happen sooner than you think.

2) Battery technology will improve dramatically. MUCH longer range and MUCH faster recharge times. GM already is testing solid state batteries, and someone WILL invent new paradigm technologies to keep improving energy storage capability. The reward for doing so is so great that it is impossible for it NOT to happen. Think of it this way; if you came up with the better mousetrap, the world will not only beat a path to your door, but you will have wealth as if you were the next Saudi Arabia.

3) Current battery technology is not practical for class 8 heavy trucks, BUT fuel cells are. The latest speculation is that the scale of renewable electrical energy (windmills, etc.) can be dramatically increased, to the point that there is more available than necessary. The excess can be used to manufacture hydrogen, which can be easily stored and used in fuel cells. GM has years of research and study on fuel cells, and it is about to become commercially viable. $$$$$

4) Gasoline will still be available, but due to supply and demand, the supply will gradually decrease as economies of scale gradually decrease, and price will go up as demand decreases and economies of scale decreases. GONNA HAPPEN! Collectible cars as we know them will still be cool, and they will get much more rare. As drivelines wear out, many IC drivelines will be replaced with electric motors and next generation (smaller and more powerful) batteries.

5) It is unlikely that electric cars will have a CAFE standard. There is no reason, other than limitations on physical size, to assume that oversize cars such as mid-70's Caddys will never again become available. Could happen, and my guess is that it will.

6) Manufacturers of electric vehicles will face a somewhat different business model than existing auto makers. Electric motors and drivelines are dramatically simpler than IC drivelines and the cost and infrastructure necessary to make an electric vehicle is considerably less. That will open the door to smaller, but very well capitalized manufacturing companies to go into the auto assembly business. That will result in more brands in the marketplace. These brands will compete for the consumer, resulting in winners and losers. Over time some of these brands and models will become collectible.

The history of the auto industry repeats itself and car junkies everywhere can continue the hobby.

My 2 cents worth!!
John Adams

Not on the topic of electrification.  But on the topic of oil. 

When oil is refined it is actually separated into different components.  Originally there were a lot of waste byproducts.  But now we have refined the process so that everything is used. We are actually at an equilibrium point with all of the plastics and other petrochemicals we use.

All petrochemicals and plastics are a different level in that processing.  The bottom tier is the sludge left over we use in asphalt. 

So if we keep using plastics and building roads, gas will just become a byproduct of the other production.  It will become really cheap. 

We say the same thing about leather.  Some people do not like leather seats because they think it is killing animals.  But no cow is killed for its leather. They are slaughtered for meat.  If we did not use the leather it would just be a big rotting pile of flesh in a landfill.

Don't forget ethanol also killed off our hobby....... so if the lead didn't get you the ethanol did or would or wait we are still here?

There are for sure several electric cars available now and many people that have the perfect use case for said electric cars even without any sort of special charging infrastructure.    There are lots of people that don't drive more than 30 miles in a day and even the worst oldest electric cars will do that on one charge.  The worst cars take 20 hours to go from dead to full charge using a regular plug but what I read about those is the people with those don't tend to run them dead so they easily get back to full in the 10ish hours overnight.    Especially if its a multi car house it can really make sense.  You have one car that is basically the around town car and then the other one for longer trips. 

With the recent demise of our 90 CDV I have been looking at what to replace it with and I was seriously looking at getting a used electric car.   Got as close as a test drive and insurance quotes but the other 2 drivers in the house were not that excited about the model I was looking at,  they thought it was too small.  I think if I was looking at a Tesla they would have been more excited but that is a whole different game when it comes to costs and service. 

Not being political either, but don't forget that there were Electric cars right at the start of the automobile industry, and they were successful.

When will we be allowed to drive our electric cars on the Golf Course, to do away with the Golf Carts.

I tried to take my '60 CDV onto a Golf Course once, and they said I couldn't use my Caddy, because it was petrol-powered.

Bruce. >:D

I think this comes down to rebates and subsidies.  The ICE never needed to be subsidized by the federal government because it was better.  If EVs can stand on their own so be it... but, if it needs to be subsidized then eventually we will run out of other people's money.

Quote from: 5390john on January 30, 2021, 07:45:35 PM

4) Gasoline will still be available, but due to supply and demand, the supply will gradually decrease as economies of scale gradually decrease, and price will go up as demand decreases and economies of scale decreases. GONNA HAPPEN! Collectible cars as we know them will still be cool, and they will get much more rare. As drivelines wear out, many IC drivelines will be replaced with electric motors and next generation (smaller and more powerful) batteries.

My 2 cents worth!!
John Adams

Sounds like we'll be like Cuba was in the '60s & '70s.

>:(

No this doesn't bode well for the future collectibles for sure.   As it is now you are already seeing collectors of late model cars complaining about the electronics in cars 15-25 years old.   Junk yards don't keep cars around as long they did years ago.  Replacement parts are getting harder to find.   Dealers don't want to support anything more than 10-15 years old.     

The shift away from fossil fuels to run our cars is a "feel good" gesture for the people who want to save the world, but don't know anything about it.   The average person has no idea where our electricity comes from or how its made.   Those batteries?   Do people have any idea of the toxic materials in them?    Their lifespan and cost?  Are they recyclable?   


Another thing that is happening is the publics acceptance of Uber and Lift services.  Young people are not rushing to get a drivers license the way we did.   Car ownership is less attractive to them.    Do you think young people really care about the make and model of the car that shuttles them around?     

Once self driving cars are perfected, we will see another shift in the industry.   With the drivers out of the picture, these self driving cars will be owned by companies like Taxis were.  The public will summon them on their smart phones.  Fewer and fewer people will see the need to own cars.  Autonomous pods don't need brand  names.  Your Amazon pod awaits.    Car companies will begin to fade away.   

Oh and does anyone else see the irony the the largest state to mandate all electric cars by 2035 is California?   How are you going to charge up those cars during the rolling blackouts that are common now there?   

Kudos to 5390John.

A lot of wishful thinking out there, but the facts are that electric cars are coming SOON.
Just follow the recent announcements from the UAW, where they are asking our government to plan on providing support ( tax dollars) to help current car builders during the transition. 

Here comes too big to fail once again.

Sandy Munro of Munro and associates said in an interview , " I would not invest money in any company currently making transmissions"

The OEMs will be able to shift.  Their biggest gut and retool will be in engine casting plants.  They may have to drop a lot of employees there.

But the supplier base that produces transmissions, exhaust systems, fuel injection, etc will be completely out of business unless they transition to an entirely new commodity.   

In many ways, electric cars were actually preferred over ICE cars 100+ years ago despite their higher average prices.  As people started to travel longer distances, ICE eventually won out because EVs at the time didn't have the desired range.  Today's battery technology is much better than it was back then, and will continue to improve.  It probably won't be too long before range and charging infrastructure factors won't be an issue. However, ICE and hybrid ICE vehicles are still expected to dominate for a while.

I also think advancing technologies will improve capabilities to restore/refurbish cars in the future which will help keep the hobby alive.  Generation after generation, classic car enthusiasts of a given time often seem to think that modern cars of that time won't be collectible and the hobby will die off BUT it's still around.

How future government regulations regarding fossil fuels, ICE powered cars, etc. may impact things for the hobby is still an unknown, of course.

This too will change.
It's a feel good exercise based in futility, in my opinion.   After I'm gone, you can do what you please, but you'll have to pry it out of my cold dead hands...
I've been studying this and the Lithium supply for batteries is an achilles heel right now and in the future.   Not all the batteries are polymer so still major risk of fire in crash.   
So don't believe all the political hype.   Gos-low as the stooges say.  I think GM will have another Saturn on it's hands.
Electric actually consumes more energy when you factor in the production and distribution.   We already know how restrictive individual solar powered cars are.   Hooking up to the gird is not practical.   If you run out of gas, you can get a ride to get a can, but if you're battery is depleted in timbukto, there's no option.   Not economical to put charging stations all over.   Might as well have trolley cars.   If the govt pays for charging stations, you're still paying for it.   So where's the economic gain?   Historically, OPEC has dropped the prices everytime one of these things get going, so there's that threat as well.   Makes it uneconomical.   Then what?   
Just because the vehicle going down the street has no tailpipe emissions, there's something somewhere to make the juice and the parts for them.   Price of copper, etc factors in as well.
I recall in the late '50s, early '60s, the govt and electric producers predicted that nuclear energy would be so cheap, they would not have to meter it.   Look how that whopper failed for starters as to the track record of all politics.
Fact is with the rising global population we need ALL forms of energy to maintain our living std.   If covid thins the herd, we'll be back to gas.

Hello all,

Lots of good discussion points here.  I'll add one or two more.

In 1955, the U.S. Department of the Interior published a bulletin titled "Lithium Resources of North America".  Among other things, the bulletin indicated sources of Lithium on the continent.  The amount of Lithium in the U.S. was sufficient for the uses of Lithium prior to the 1970s, when developmental work began on Lithium batteries.

While Lithium mining has been around since the late 19th Century, Lithium was not used for batteries until about 30 years ago.   There is no where near enough Lithium in North America to satisfy the demand for Lithium batteries for electric vehicles (EVs).  If EVs, powered by Lithium batteries are mandated by 2035, then we need to invade and colonize Bolivia.

Of course, batteries need not be made from Lithium.  Some other element could be used.  However, in the past there has been about a 20 year development period with all newer battery technology, so the time to start developing a non-Lithium battery was five years ago.

But why would we want to rely on any battery technology that uses extractive processes?  This seems to undermine the rationale to use EVs.  I am reasonably comfortable thinking that Hydrogen is the way to go - whether as fuel cells or directly burned in my '67's 429.  Today, all of our Cadillacs could be converted to run on compressed natural gas, at a relatively small cost.  When I am fully retired, this will be one of my projects.

To quote David Smith, "The average person has no idea where our electricity comes from or how its made."  Perhaps the thing that should be mandated by 2035 is that all elected representatives take 2 years of physics and chemistry.

Respectfully submitted,

Christopher Winter

Well, it's my opinion that one shouldn't be able to get elected without at least 5 years' worth of studying in something that has an actual application: physics, agriculture, medical science, military affairs... and then, get 2 years of political formation aimed at whatever responsibility they're aiming for.

Quote from: fishnjim on January 31, 2021, 09:46:34 AM
It's a feel good exercise based in futility, in my opinion. 

That's all it is, but I would also add stupidity & willful ignorance

Nobody has any business dictating (by whatever means) what the free market should be deciding for itself. It is outrageous, immoral and should be condemned. 

Not being political either, but I don't (and didn't) support the direction this country is currently heading.  We just became energy independent and now it's all going towards the terlit.

We all better sell our Cadillacs now before the market for them craters.

According to Google:

What country is the greatest polluter?
Top 5 most polluting countries:
China (30%) The world's most populated country has an enormous export market, which has seen its industry grow to become a serious danger to the planet. ...
United States (15%) The world's biggest industrial and commercial power. ...
India (7%) ...
Russia (5%) ...
Japan (4%)

You think China and the others are going to play along?   ::)

Quote from: chrisntam on January 31, 2021, 02:42:33 PM
You think China and the others are going to play along?   ::)

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ-ej4imQIslSNnte7eeidhTOk5iqXpNtQVUA&usqp=CAU)

Quote from: 5390john on January 30, 2021, 07:45:35 PM
The auto industry is under ENORMOUS pressure on a global scale to largely eliminate fossil fuels by around 2035.
It is going to happen.
Here's what else WILL happen:

1) Charging infrastructure will improve drastically to become roughly equivalent to a gas station on every corner, AND in your garage. It will happen sooner than you think.

2) Battery technology will improve dramatically. MUCH longer range and MUCH faster recharge times. GM already is testing solid state batteries, and someone WILL invent new paradigm technologies to keep improving energy storage capability. The reward for doing so is so great that it is impossible for it NOT to happen. Think of it this way; if you came up with the better mousetrap, the world will not only beat a path to your door, but you will have wealth as if you were the next Saudi Arabia.

3) Current battery technology is not practical for class 8 heavy trucks, BUT fuel cells are. The latest speculation is that the scale of renewable electrical energy (windmills, etc.) can be dramatically increased, to the point that there is more available than necessary. The excess can be used to manufacture hydrogen, which can be easily stored and used in fuel cells. GM has years of research and study on fuel cells, and it is about to become commercially viable. $$$$$

4) Gasoline will still be available, but due to supply and demand, the supply will gradually decrease as economies of scale gradually decrease, and price will go up as demand decreases and economies of scale decreases. GONNA HAPPEN! Collectible cars as we know them will still be cool, and they will get much more rare. As drivelines wear out, many IC drivelines will be replaced with electric motors and next generation (smaller and more powerful) batteries.

5) It is unlikely that electric cars will have a CAFE standard. There is no reason, other than limitations on physical size, to assume that oversize cars such as mid-70's Caddys will never again become available. Could happen, and my guess is that it will.

6) Manufacturers of electric vehicles will face a somewhat different business model than existing auto makers. Electric motors and drivelines are dramatically simpler than IC drivelines and the cost and infrastructure necessary to make an electric vehicle is considerably less. That will open the door to smaller, but very well capitalized manufacturing companies to go into the auto assembly business. That will result in more brands in the marketplace. These brands will compete for the consumer, resulting in winners and losers. Over time some of these brands and models will become collectible.

The history of the auto industry repeats itself and car junkies everywhere can continue the hobby.

My 2 cents worth!!
John Adams

It will Never fully occur.

The Military isn't going to run its combat and logistical vehicles off electric power. Jets don't fly on electricity and 65,000 ton ships don't run off electricity either.

COL: "Captain, start the attack in 10 minutes"
CPT: "Sir, the tanks are still recharging and need another 45 minutes to get recharged"

It's just Not going to happen.

As for me, my endurance for driving is about 14-18 hours a day max, with a co-driver. That's about 800-1,000 miles a day. After that we are both bushed out. Fuel stops are 5-10 mins depending on whether or not we need refueling ourselves or need to avail ourselves of the facilities. However there is NO electric car that can run for that time. So No thanks for us.

The entire problem I have with the mandate, is that where is our choice as consumers in all of this? Why does the government feel like it knows what’s best for us or actually cares about the health of the nation?

The only way EVs will work in this country,  and have people start to buy them in the future, is to slowly start bulldozing gas stations, making it even harder for ICE powered vehicles to pass emissions, charge higher registration fees, tax the crap out of buying ICE vehicles, and basically make it more expensive to own one.

That’s right, EVs won’t sell all that well without government tax incentives. GM has to be talking to the heads in government that control CAFE standards and other means of automotive decision making that are in power to eventually FORCE Americans to abandon their gas powered vehicle one way or another.

Like CadillacMike said, the Military won’t be able to utilize EV technology in wartime combat. Tanks, planes, fighter jets can’t just take “recharging” breaks in the middle of a fight. An then imagine if they did use EVs in every military vehicle? Imagine the cost per unit for say a battle tank?

It would be economically wasteful because the cost of them would be insanely expensive. Plus, the massive weight of batteries, the lengthy recharging times,  and potential safety hazards that come along with large batteries that could blow up in a fire fight.

I also don’t know how the automakers making EVs can truly make them safe in a vehicle crash with the potential of a serious fire and exploding material happening.

Let the market decide on what it wants. That’s why we are the country we have always been, is by letting the people make their own decisions in how they want to live, what to buy, and what to do in life. The less government the better.

Until people can fully recharge an EV in 5 mins at a charging station, then I can see the potential downfall of consumer ownership in ICE vehicles. Nobody likes waiting for anything, especially when time is valuable to us, and I can’t imagine owners of EVs lining up down the street to recharge their car that will take a half hour to fully charge.

Convenience is still king this is why liquor stores, corner markets are so valuable because nobody wants to walk into a huge store just to grab a soda and wait in line for 10 mins or more, when they could have just driven down the street to a 7-Eleven and be out in less than 3 mins.

BTW I don’t think we as Classic Cadillac owners have too much to worry about. There will always be someone in this industry that will find a way to make our cars compliant if the bans really do become reality. Converting to a fully electric parts is possible although cost will be high initially, but over time, those cost will come down and maybe there will be a company out there that could make the conversion easy and affordable to do. Maybe have our cars run on both gas and strictly battery powered. Whoever creates this invention and adaptation, will be very successful IMO.

Another way to say it;
If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything.

We're at the precipice of another milestone in humanity. They've certainly been disruptive in the past. The Industrial Revolution is a big one, with population shifts and changes as our economy needed fewer people to work a farm. There were significant changes in our world as railroads become more commonplace, and then automobiles several decades later became more commonplace. A lot of infrastructure had to be built up for both to operate successfully, including the actual railroads or paved roads to allow for safe, reliable travel. There were also disruptions to supporting industries with the rise of the automobile, such as coach builders and farriers needed less and mechanics, fuel, and spare parts needed more. Even way in which our homes are designed and built has changed with the car. Homes now having attached garages instead of detached carriage houses, and newly built homes having the main ingress/egress for the homeowners be via the garage instead of the front door.

There's been a lot of discussion on this forum about the infrastructure challenges facing EVs, and they are absolutely correct. More charging stations, the ability for owners without off-street parking to recharge, larger capacity batteries, rapid charging batteries, and the ability to supply clean electricity via systems such as solar panels and wind turbines. Humanity had similar challenges roughly 100 years ago as the Model T was being produced by Ford, and look at us now.

What will happen to collectible cars? I have no idea. I'm in my mid-30s, so hopefully I've got about another 50 years of driving ahead of me. I'd like to see a healthy secondary market that can retrofit EV drivetrains into classic cars. There's already a niche secondary market to convert ICE classic cars into EV-powered cars, usually with drivetrains from wrecked EVs. ICON did one example (https://www.icon4x4.com/derelict/pastprojects/37) and Charge, a company in Britain is making Mustangs with EV drivetrains. To be affordable for more classic car owners, the secondary market will need to be able to purchase drivetrains directly from manufacturers to retrofit into classic cars. I can see popular cars being available first, such as Tri-Five Chevys, Ford Mustangs, Corvettes, etc. being more economically viable due to the sheer number on the road versus Cadillacs.

QuoteThe Military isn't going to run its combat and logistical vehicles off electric power. Jets don't fly on electricity and 65,000 ton ships don't run off electricity either.

I think that's a bit of a straw man argument. 5390john said 'largely' not 'completely'. I'm not sure what the the military's different mobility and readiness requirements have to do with civilian products. That being said, many ships and boats in the US Navy are nuclear-powered, and there are hybrid systems being installed in newly built destroyers that extends their range. The US Navy in general is aware of the importance of fuel and power for readiness, with investment in and usage of biofuels for equipment, and solar/wind power for bases (source: https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/columnist/2016/09/14/skys-limit-navys-biofuel-focus/90326310/).

But I like the smell of a rich, carbureted engine running on a cold morning... 

;)

Quote from: chrisntam on February 01, 2021, 01:33:12 PM
But I like the smell of a rich, carbureted engine running on a cold morning... 

;)

Many or maybe all electric cars now have some sort of noise makers so they will have to start working on simulated smells.   Just another menu you can bring up,   want it to smell like good old leaded?   Maybe you actually like ethanol?  Remember your race days of pure alcohol?    Maybe you are a diesel person?   All at your fingertips.   It will be like printer ink, expensive little cartridges. 

Quote from: chrisntam on February 01, 2021, 01:33:12 PM
But I like the smell of a rich, carbureted engine running on a cold morning... 

;)
[/quote

Getting rid of the intoxicating aroma of a choked startup on a cold morning is like expecting women to give up perfume.  Nevergonnahappen.com

Quote from: Dr. John T. Welch on February 01, 2021, 04:49:12 PM

Quote from: chrisntam on February 01, 2021, 01:33:12 PM
But I like the smell of a rich, carbureted engine running on a cold morning... 

;)
[/quote

Getting rid of the intoxicating aroma of a choked startup on a cold morning is like expecting women to give up perfume.  Nevergonnahappen.com

My 2019 EV has the option of a "Winter" or "Summer" smell via the HVAC system along with an ionizer.  I prefer the leather seating smell!  The '50 Cadillac upon COLD startup makes up for the EVs lack of a delicious hydrocarbon scent that us car folks enjoy!

The collector car hobby is not going anywhere.  Big tent that we can all share.  EVs share many of the attributes that we all LOVE about our Cadillacs; TORQUE, QUIET, interesting/cutting edge options and a CLOUD-LIKE RIDE!

Two things here: The wheels of change turn slowly-- very slowly.  Secondly I always have said; follow the money.  SEMA is a multi million dollar outfit as is the aftermarket parts companies that supply ICE parts and of course so are the petroleum companies.  They don't call them "Big Oil" for nothin'.

Classic cars are our history.  Icons to the USA and the rest of the world.  They are coveted by the Swiss, Germans, Japanese and many more.  Our contribution is massive.  I can see the electric vehicles as a yes, they are going to happen.  What I don't see is the decimation of the hobby or the millions of dollars that so many companies have invested to support it.

To be sure if I was not a hobbyist or if this hobby was not the whole of my business for 30 years, I would probably own an electric car for the mundane trips and errands.  I have no problem with them.  I'm guessing most folks commute is not one they cherish every day-- and certainly not in a 40 year old or older classic-- which they probably would never expose to so many bad drivers on a daily basis.   I don't see any of this EV talk as he sky is falling.  But to be sure their certainly needs to be a cleaner sky up their.

Cheers, Ken

The biggest problem with our hobby in general is the declining interest in younger people wanting to own and fix old Cadillacs, as well as the high cost of owning them. The hot-rod scene will always have their crowd, same with the Low-rider scene, but even those guys are struggling to gain interest from the younger generations to keep the movement going.

Young kids are way too interested in technology, than cars. I can possibly see the import or modern muscle car crowds being popular for many years to come simply due to the fact that trying to find parts or knowing how to repair them is a lot easier for any shop to work on today. Vs our classics where many shops today refuse or don’t have the staff that knows how to repair vintage cars. If they do, they charge a premium which some people can’t afford.

I know the shop manager for Chip Foose, where the show “Overhaulin” is made. He knows a lot about this industry as he’s worked with Chip for almost 30 years. We spoke about the state of the restoration market, and he told me that he gives the industry about another 10 years, and the rate of business for a lot of resto and or repair shops will decline. He said because the majority of owners that can afford to pay $50,000-100,000 for a restoration are all older guys that are all dying off.

He said many of their children don’t want their parents/grandparents cars, or have any interest in them, so they go to auction or just sit in a garage somewhere not finished or finished and not driven.

He said Chips business during Covid was actually very high since many wealthy older guys with classics, wanted to restore their rides before something could happen to them. It was based off fear.

This is coming from someone that does this job day in and day out, and I notice the lack of interest in younger people that are into our Cadillacs. It’s the unknown that frightens them, plus if you can’t do basic maintenance on a car, that’s a major issue for vintage Cadillac ownership.

Unless your rich and can easily afford to pay a shop to do everything for you, but even then, nobody is going to care for your car, and do the research on how and what parts will fit correctly in your old Caddy than yourself. I just hope we as enthusiasts in the future can simply go for a cruise in our cars without being scrutinized and ridiculed for what we enjoy.

Quote from: 64/54Cadillacking on February 01, 2021, 12:42:06 AM
The entire problem I have with the mandate, is that where is our choice as consumers in all of this? Why does the government feel like it knows what’s best for us or actually cares about the health of the nation?

The only way EVs will work in this country,  and have people start to buy them in the future, is to slowly start bulldozing gas stations, making it even harder for ICE powered vehicles to pass emissions, charge higher registration fees, tax the crap out of buying ICE vehicles, and basically make it more expensive to own one.

That’s right, EVs won’t sell all that well without government tax incentives. GM has to be talking to the heads in government that control CAFE standards and other means of automotive decision making that are in power to eventually FORCE Americans to abandon their gas powered vehicle one way or another.

Like CadillacMike said, the Military won’t be able to utilize EV technology in wartime combat. Tanks, planes, fighter jets can’t just take “recharging” breaks in the middle of a fight. An then imagine if they did use EVs in every military vehicle? Imagine the cost per unit for say a battle tank?

It would be economically wasteful because the cost of them would be insanely expensive. Plus, the massive weight of batteries, the lengthy recharging times,  and potential safety hazards that come along with large batteries that could blow up in a fire fight.

I also don’t know how the automakers making EVs can truly make them safe in a vehicle crash with the potential of a serious fire and exploding material happening.

Let the market decide on what it wants. That’s why we are the country we have always been, is by letting the people make their own decisions in how they want to live, what to buy, and what to do in life. The less government the better.

Until people can fully recharge an EV in 5 mins at a charging station, then I can see the potential downfall of consumer ownership in ICE vehicles. Nobody likes waiting for anything, especially when time is valuable to us, and I can’t imagine owners of EVs lining up down the street to recharge their car that will take a half hour to fully charge.

Convenience is still king this is why liquor stores, corner markets are so valuable because nobody wants to walk into a huge store just to grab a soda and wait in line for 10 mins or more, when they could have just driven down the street to a 7-Eleven and be out in less than 3 mins.

BTW I don’t think we as Classic Cadillac owners have too much to worry about. There will always be someone in this industry that will find a way to make our cars compliant if the bans really do become reality. Converting to a fully electric parts is possible although cost will be high initially, but over time, those cost will come down and maybe there will be a company out there that could make the conversion easy and affordable to do. Maybe have our cars run on both gas and strictly battery powered. Whoever creates this invention and adaptation, will be very successful IMO.

The bolded part says it all. In addition I stand by my remarks on the military and commercial aviation and shipping as well.

Quote from: Andrew Trout on February 01, 2021, 11:11:45 AM
We're at the precipice of another milestone in humanity. They've certainly been disruptive in the past. The Industrial Revolution is a big one, with population shifts and changes as our economy needed fewer people to work a farm. There were significant changes in our world as railroads become more commonplace, and then automobiles several decades later became more commonplace. A lot of infrastructure had to be built up for both to operate successfully, including the actual railroads or paved roads to allow for safe, reliable travel. There were also disruptions to supporting industries with the rise of the automobile, such as coach builders and farriers needed less and mechanics, fuel, and spare parts needed more. Even way in which our homes are designed and built has changed with the car. Homes now having attached garages instead of detached carriage houses, and newly built homes having the main ingress/egress for the homeowners be via the garage instead of the front door.

There's been a lot of discussion on this forum about the infrastructure challenges facing EVs, and they are absolutely correct. More charging stations, the ability for owners without off-street parking to recharge, larger capacity batteries, rapid charging batteries, and the ability to supply clean electricity via systems such as solar panels and wind turbines. Humanity had similar challenges roughly 100 years ago as the Model T was being produced by Ford, and look at us now.

What will happen to collectible cars? I have no idea. I'm in my mid-30s, so hopefully I've got about another 50 years of driving ahead of me. I'd like to see a healthy secondary market that can retrofit EV drivetrains into classic cars. There's already a niche secondary market to convert ICE classic cars into EV-powered cars, usually with drivetrains from wrecked EVs. ICON did one example (https://www.icon4x4.com/derelict/pastprojects/37) and Charge, a company in Britain is making Mustangs with EV drivetrains. To be affordable for more classic car owners, the secondary market will need to be able to purchase drivetrains directly from manufacturers to retrofit into classic cars. I can see popular cars being available first, such as Tri-Five Chevys, Ford Mustangs, Corvettes, etc. being more economically viable due to the sheer number on the road versus Cadillacs.

I think that's a bit of a straw man argument. 5390john said 'largely' not 'completely'. I'm not sure what the the military's different mobility and readiness requirements have to do with civilian products. That being said, many ships and boats in the US Navy are nuclear-powered, and there are hybrid systems being installed in newly built destroyers that extends their range. The US Navy in general is aware of the importance of fuel and power for readiness, with investment in and usage of biofuels for equipment, and solar/wind power for bases (source: https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/columnist/2016/09/14/skys-limit-navys-biofuel-focus/90326310/).

As a Retired Logistics Army Colonel, I believe I have a much greater insight into this.

Civilian Products: except for the Combat (tracked) vehicles, most of the ground force comes from companies that make civilian items and more production goes into the civilian items.

Usage: Do you know how much fuel an Armored Division uses?  About 1,000,000 gallons per day when it's on the move.

Ships: ONLY the Subs (not all) and CVNs are Nuclear powered. That leaves several Hundred oil powered ships. All using oil or something that is Burned. There is only so much bio-fuel that can be made, and it's not enough. 

Commercial aviation and shipping is all oil powered, or something that is Burned to make heat that powers the turbines, etc. That isn't going away for a loooooong time. I still haven't seen a nuclear or solar powered airplane.

This is why the hypocrisy of certain high profile idiots are so annoying to me.

I'm curious of those that are in the 'have to recharge in 5 mins' camp how often do you have to go more than say 200 miles in one day?

I think the concept of a service station for recharging your EV is not workable.  Right now new construction of shopping malls require parking stalls with charging stations.  An indication of what is coming. 

My thought is that charging stations will be everywhere.  First of all is your own garage.  All you need is a dryer outlet near your car to plug your own charger in (the charger may be built into the car).  All the hotels/motels will have charging stations in most of their parking lot you just use your door key card and the bill will be added to your room, or use your charge card.  When you get up in the morning your car is fully charged.  Most of the restaurants will also have charging stations in their parking lots so your car is charged as you eat. 
The big question in my mind is how will the governments collect road tax on EVs? 

Working in a Navy Shipyard, I don’t think there are any diesel subs in the fleet anymore.  All fleet subs and aircraft carriers are nukes.  The Navy experimented with Nuclear Cruisers.  But they did not last.  Cruisers and Destroyers are gas turbine now. 

I have a theory that none of the above scenarios are going to be realistic. The main reason being time. While I wouldn't want to put a timetable on it, it is my fear that over the next 50-100 years (if not sooner) civilization is going to look a lot more like "Mad Max" than "Star Trek". Reason being, the economic and societal trajectory we are currently on now in the US is unsustainable by any reasonable persons standard. With the level of reckless spending that our government has engaged in for the last say 30 years, at some point the economy will have to implode with a ferocity that makes the Great Depression look like child's play. We aren't hurtling towards an economic cliff, we have jumped over it full on and are flailing in the air like a cartoon character. By the time any of these developing technologies can be effectively and widely implemented, it will be too late.

Like others, I point no fingers at anybody's political views or affiliations. There is plenty of blame to go around. I do however look at the realities around us. When and if we do reach the point where economy, government and society collapses, technological development will assuredly grind to a halt. Oh, sure, the knowledge will still be there, but there will be no infrastructure of people, finances, or resources to sustain it. As a result, we will still be reliant on older, salvageable technology and machinery that we can piece together to keep up some standard of living as we know it. So far as I can envision the future, the most benign scenario of this would be like Cuba today. Where you see guys patching old cars up with lawnmower parts to try and keep what few cars are left running. At the other extreme, you would likely see a world much like the aforementioned "Mad Max" where gasoline becomes the most precious commodity and those who are willing to steal or kill for it are plentiful. Any way you cut it, I don't see car hobbyists other than those who are ultra wealthy or elite in this new world being able to sustain it.

Quote from: TJ Hopland on February 03, 2021, 08:32:33 PM
I'm curious of those that are in the 'have to recharge in 5 mins' camp how often do you have to go more than say 200 miles in one day?

It's an average of...say, 2-5x/month for me (depending on how some roadtrips shake out).  For me, a round-trip to Charlottesville is around 300 miles (give or take), DC is about the same (Baltimore is about 200 miles one way, and that's also prone to traffic issues in and around DC), and Florida...well, that's often split over two days, but if not it's one rather long day.  Still, that's a serious consideration since when it /does/ happen it's an issue if I'm having to (for example) spend 4-5 hours on charging stops on the way down to Florida*...I'd rather not be forced to randomly stop for a spell wherever the meter starts running low.  There's a reason that my standard is a "practical" range of 300 miles (which effectively requires a "sticker" range of closer to 400).

Now, I'll be honest...I question whether the "total conversion" is going to actually happen.  I think there are enough use cases where electric just doesn't work that at a bare minimum GMC might be "stuck" offering a hybrid option (since "my truck ran out of gas in the middle of nowhere" can probably be fixed rather more easily than "my truck ran out of power in the middle of nowhere")...but I can also see a situation where for all intents and purposes GM is selling a handful of lines (maybe a pickup and an SUV or two) with a stagnated engine design because those use cases still need the sale but the cost to overhaul the engine simply doesn't make sense.  I think there's a good chance that you're going to have 5-10% of the market that will be hard to "lever out" (I'm also guessing that this might end up being a diesel-dominated segment, BTW, since diesel locomotives probably also aren't going anywhere for a while) and TBH I also think once you're down to that point a lot of the political pressure will also die back (since as indicated, at some point gasoline [or diesel] is simply the byproduct of the petrochemical industry's production of "other stuff").  Basically, I see a situation where GM is selling 250k not-entirely-electric vehicles a year to be more realistic than zero (since the risk is simply surrendering that use case to Ford, whatever form the remains of Chrysler are called by then, or someone else).

Edit: And of course, I've omitted use cases that center around power problems.  CA's rolling blackouts are a pretty good example of a pitfall here.

To be sure, I believe that improvements will happen (especially as the market has started to reach a critical mass), but I do question whether the rate of scaling will bring down costs enough.  We're nowhere near a Chevy Spark electric equivalent turning up...the Cybertruck is 2-3x the cost of an F-150 and the cheapest Tesla (the Model 3) is still nearly a $40k investment up front while resale values are still arguably too high (thanks to constrained supplies on the used car front) and repair bills are rumored to be...problematic...in the case of a collision.  So we've still got a distance to go.  Moreover, AFAICT Tesla (in particular) is mostly making money on things like CAFE credits rather than on vehicle sales...so it'll be interesting to see where prices go if automakers are having to make a profit on these sales without things like that to help them.

*This wasn't part of my use case for about a decade (I'd take the train or fly instead), but Winnie the Flu has had a certain complex impact on my travel patterns.  The longer-term question is really whether I'm going to end up reverting when this is all said and done...I'm rather enjoying having /my/ car with me in Florida instead of a rental.

All of this is should also serve as a harbinger to those selling used and aftermarket parts--- as in getting a little dose of realism and begin to accept offers and sales of their goods.  I've seen where many parts in the past were highly coveted as used parts and as such were priced into the stratosphere--- until the advent of cheaper reproductions made their way into the market. Then those holding on for top dollar were left out in the cold holding onto their parts.

This hobby, as has been discussed many times, is showing signs of atrophy.  I don't think EVs will eradicate it but it will have quite an effect on it.  Us old guys are literally dying off and the younger folks that have any interest in our cars is minimal at best. Of course that could change but the handing off of the baton with the same fervor and enthusiasm we have for the hobby is seriously in doubt in my mind.  Most of us shrug off the "tech".  The younger generation has been raised on it.  And is in my mind the reason most cars these days on the dealers lots were designed to sell the tech not the aesthetics.  A big reason most cars look all alike these days.  Tech: number 1 selling point.  Aesthetics: a distant second.

The young (and broke) today will be old (and wealthier) tomorrow and I constantly see young people becoming involved in the old car hobby every day even with what little resources they have. 

Hardly a day passes on FB where some younger person doesn't show off some recent vintage Cadillac purchase and that's just the Cadillac pages because those are the only ones I follow. No doubt the same holds true for other makes, which combined, the additions would be far greater.

I don't necessarily see EVs in themselves posing a threat to the old car hobby so much as policy aimed at destroying the "fossil fuel" industry. The notion that EVs are in some way more "environmentally friendly" is a shell game of robbing Peter to  pay Paul as far as I'm concerned. 

Quote from: Glen on February 04, 2021, 01:32:39 AM
The big question in my mind is how will the governments collect road tax on EVs? 

No doubt you will see a huge increase in your registration fees to make up for the loss of gasoline funded road taxes, with part going to the state and part to the federal government.  Worry not, they WILL come up with a way to replace the lost gasoline tax revenues.  You can also rest assured that there will be a tax on the electric power used to recharge your EV batteries at malls, restaurants, etc., etc., to pay for the increased need for electric power sources like more power plants and/or increasing the output abilities of current plants.  And I have every confidence that there will be a way to tax the power that you use at home (through the special charger plug-ins that you will have to install) to also recoup lost gasoline tax revenues.

Quote from: Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621 on February 04, 2021, 09:06:17 AM
I don't necessarily see EVs in themselves posing a threat to the old car hobby so much as policy aimed at destroying the "fossil fuel" industry. The notion that EVs are in some way more "environmentally friendly" is a shell game of robbing Peter to  pay Paul as far as I'm concerned. 

I am in 100% agreement with that!

Quote from: 35-709 on February 04, 2021, 10:11:25 AM
No doubt you will see a huge increase in your registration fees to make up for the loss of gasoline funded road taxes, with part going to the state and part to the federal government.  Worry not, they WILL come up with a way to replace the lost gasoline tax revenues.  You can also rest assured that there will be a tax on the electric power used to recharge your EV batteries at malls, restaurants, etc., etc., to pay for the increased need for electric power sources like more power plants and/or increasing the output abilities of current plants.  And I have every confidence that there will be a way to tax the power that you use at home (through the special charger plug-ins that you will have to install) to also recoup lost gasoline tax revenues.

Yup!

I see the problem as generating enough energy, without pollution killing us all.  What
worked centuries ago, will not work with the world population of today or in the future. 

In cold January I used $250 worth of electricity to heat, cool, and electrify this place,
but I paid $0 for the energy.  But there was still a charge of $14, because that energy
had to be transported plus the taxes.  Zero carbon footprint, no emissions into the air. 
This has been happening here for 7 years by trading energy between my solar array
and the Nuke plant, called NET METERING.  Clean and very cheap, but never free. 

I am using the Nuke plant as an infinite capacity, 100% efficient, free cost and maintenance,
BATTERY.  That is because real batteries cannot do the job and make me truly independent. 
They will not in my lifetime, probably nobody elses lifetime, and likely never.  Renewables
are not sufficient to solve the problem by themselves.  But what I am doing, I believe can
be scaled up to a solution by changing over our uranium Nuke plant technology to
Thorium Nuke.  About the only down side (?) I have heard to this, is no bombs can be made
from thorium plants. 

Meanwhile it may be practical to build a lot of EVs, but some non electric types will always
be needed.  That can be tolerated, provided they do not pollute much.  Some fuels are very
clean (propane), just how that will play out remains to be seen.  Bruce Roe

Quote from: TJ Hopland on February 03, 2021, 08:32:33 PM
I'm curious of those that are in the 'have to recharge in 5 mins' camp how often do you have to go more than say 200 miles in one day?

More than you would think, especially in spread out areas.

And this goes back to my earlier post. If an EV can't go 800+ miles without recharging, then it's not for me.

Here from the cheap seats, may I offer a couple issues which might greatly help or negatively influence the future of EV's of any kind or purpose.

Millennials with their "I DESERVE free stuff" attitudes. -------- the paradigm switch to "don't buy, but lease" (planned obsolescence and the disposability of all things), facilitated with likely larger subsidies (than currently available) from the government to force the quicker transition away from oil to electricity to foster their agenda.

The Counter Culture which has so quickly grown in strength and influence. -------- "Out with the old in with the new", a simple recognition is that there are A LOT MORE folks who buy new or recently new cars, than classics, so underlining and defining the timeline of the future of the currently structured auto industries, and more personally, this hobby (largely Classic Cars of long gone eras bought, sold, and owned by aging members).

And my personal favorite - perhaps the off switch to it all - an EMP, Electromagnetic Pulse. -------- not yet available as a fully defensible protection. -------- electronics would be fried, not just a quick recharge would solve.  A sort of, "putting all your eggs in one basket" foolishness.

OK, let the ostrich brigade start whistling in the dark, after drinking their fortifying COOL AID.

Have fun,
Steve B.

Where would we be now if people weren't irrationally afraid of nuclear power?  "Radiation" says the girl sunbathing on the beach.

So long as policy continues to be made by the ignorant elected by the ignorant . . . .

There is a fascinating and extensive article in todays Wall Street Journal that relates to this topic.
It's posted online but you might have to be a subscriber to see it, not sure.

www.wsj.com/articles/the-battery-is-ready-to-power-the-world

In a nutshell, better batteries and renewable energy are coming and getting better and cheaper MUCH faster than expected and the trend will continue for the foreseeable future.
I would be interested in seeing informed comments on the forum from people who have READ THE ARTICLE!
John Adams   
       

I got a 404-Page Not Found error.

On range potential: If you were to take the full-size car bodies of the late 1960s/early 1970s (or after the first wave of downsizing in the late 1970s), you have somewhere in the ballpark of 220 inches of body length to "play" with.  If you could take that extra length (extend the hood, extend the trunk, take your pick) and use it to double up on battery capacity, even accounting for the added weight you could probably "solve" the range problem right now (even if MPGe took a mild whack in the process) by doubling (or tripling) energy storage capacity.

On range issues in general: I'd point out that "range at time of sale" and "range over time" are not the same.  Per a Car and Driver piece:
"We were of course curious to see how our car's pack is faring over time, and the geektastic TeslaFi software we've used to track our car's more than 24,000 miles and each of the 842 times we've plugged it in has an answer...TeslaFi's battery-tracking tool puts our pack at 93 percent of its original 75.0-kWh capacity, a loss of about 22 miles of rated range from the original 310-mile EPA combined figure. This is based on the range data from the nearly 500 times we've charged our car to 90 percent of its capacity or above (see graph below)." [1]

The authors admit that their charging patterns aren't optimal, but that on a fleet average the loss is probably about 18 miles or so per a chart in the thread...which is still less than ideal.  The problem is still that whereas a standard gas car "dumping" that sort of mileage would simply mean more trips to the gas station (and memorizing where the nearest Costco/BJ's/Sam's Club was to one's routing), and for diesel a bit more mental work due to relative availability, for an electric car the risk of bleeding that sort of mileage on a charge runs a risk of turning into a serious inconvenience and hassle.  For example, at the 100k mile mark you're easily adding a charge (or two) to a trip from DC to Florida [2], which falls under the banner of "reasonable one-day trip".

This all goes back to a point I've made in multiple places: You really need something like a 400-mile "official" range to make a 300-mile range work, since after 4-5 years of regular use a 300-mile range...isn't, so you're now dipping down into a 300-mile range that is now perhaps 240-250 and needing to adjust from there (so your "practical" range starts dipping under 200 miles, depending on driving patterns and other conditions).

So at least for the moment, we're back to my cynicism about this really "taking" for another generation or so of cars.  We're /getting/ there, but we're not there yet.

===== ===== ===== ===== =====

Honestly, I find GM's stance to be somewhat boggling.  I get the signal they're sending and the pressures at play, but what I probably would have said is this:
"We expect to transition 80-90% of our production to electric by 2035.  The remainder, we expect to remain gas/diesel-based, because we have customers whose use cases aren't well-suited to electric vehicles.  In line with this, we expect to fully transition Cadillac and Buick to electric engines but we also expect that GMC will retain a significant internal combustion customer base and there may be some limited carry-over into Chevrolet given similar situations."

And TBF if I was in Ford's shoes I'd actually announce something like that as a response to GM's stance ("We recognize that use cases vary, so while we'll be doing X, Y, and Z as part of a transition, we're also going to keep producing a gas-powered F-150 for as long as market conditions permit it.")


[1] https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a35203450/tesla-model-3-battery-capacity-loss-warranty/
[2] Going to the math, DC to Orlando is right under 850 miles.  850/310=2.74, so if you start off close to full I'd presume two en-route charges would probably cut it (maybe with a supplemental charge if you're nervous around Palm Coast/Daytona Beach).  850/217 (70% of 310, which is what Tesla warranties batteries at for a 120k mile/8 year battery life)=3.92, so I really wouldn't expect to make it on three en route charges (since charger locations are not yet anywhere close to optimal).

Quote from: 5390john on February 06, 2021, 04:36:59 PM
There is a fascinating and extensive article in todays Wall Street Journal that relates to this topic.
It's posted online but you might have to be a subscriber to see it, not sure.

www.wsj.com/articles/the-battery-is-ready-to-power-the-world

In a nutshell, better batteries and renewable energy are coming and getting better and cheaper MUCH faster than expected and the trend will continue for the foreseeable future.

That is basically it in a nutshell.  There has been and will continue to be rapid advancements in charging and battery technologies, production efficiencies, etc.

One question is what will happen to the costs and availability of battery raw materials as demand continues to grow.  There are also questions regarding improvements and changes to electricity production and distribution systems.  These are things that will (need to be) addressed in the coming years/decades similar to how oil/gas issues have needed to be addressed over time.

Happy reading folks.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/tilakdoshi/2020/08/02/the-dirty-secrets-of-clean-electric-vehicles/?sh=642acc58650b&fbclid=IwAR3QA-zw31N9u0Oc_5cyALocSYfP5dnRnoolLh0-BT8omd6wcE9YzrPkMM8

Quote from: Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621 on February 07, 2021, 01:43:37 PM
Happy reading folks.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/tilakdoshi/2020/08/02/the-dirty-secrets-of-clean-electric-vehicles/?sh=642acc58650b&fbclid=IwAR3QA-zw31N9u0Oc_5cyALocSYfP5dnRnoolLh0-BT8omd6wcE9YzrPkMM8

I’m shocked that a current Senior Research Fellow at the King Abdullah Petroleum Studies and Research Center in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia and someone who has worked so extensively in the oil, gas and petroleum sectors as the author has would be anti-EV.  /S   (sarcasm)


A rebuttal (NOT mine) to the article:
This poorly researched opinion piece contains all the classic anti EV propaganda, which we have heard from the fossil fuel industry before and have been debunked by independent scientists and researchers.  The author paints the picture of children mining cobalt in Africa which contradicts the clean image of Electric Vehicles.

And then goes on to quote from one professor "Kelly", who says we would need huge amounts of Lithium, Cobalt, Copper etc, if the world is to transition to electric mobility. And mining all this minerals would cause huge environmental issues for the world.

While we totally abhor the use of child labor, Mr Tilak Doshi, has no clue and does not understand the reality of the Indian electric vehicle scene. Most electric vehicles sold in India use the Lithium Iron Phosphate Battery, which does not use Cobalt at all. Tesla has contracted LG Chem and CATL to make the lithium iron phosphate (LFP) batteries.

Another fact that these anti EV articles won't even bother to mention is that an Electric vehicles use few kgs of Lithium and other minerals, over a 12-13 year period. Remember batteries have second, third lives and minerals can be recycled.

Compare that to thousands of litres of oil that internal combustion vehicles burn over their lifetime. Not to mention the pollution caused in our cities and 0 recyclability of oil. The environmental impact of oil is way more than minerals used in a battery.

Oh, then there is innovation happening with mining firms open to more sustainable raw-material extraction with focus on water management, emissions reduction and recycling. Also the world has enough lithium and other minerals to last many decades.

Also, if the author is criticising lithium mining operations in Chile, Africa, how about also discussing the terrible environmental impact of extracting shale gas in the USA or crude oil in Nigeria or talk about the huge environmental issues with the oil industry.

Of course, Mr Tilak who has worked in the Oil industry won’t choose to see the reality regarding EV batteries or talk about how damaging the fossil fuel industry is to the planet and our cities.

And then Mr Tilak raises the usual coal complaint and claims Electric vehicles cause more pollution.   It's hard to believe at this stage of the game that anyone still believes that old red herring - about coal and electric vehicles. It has been proven again and again that fueling an electric car/scooter with electricity produced from coal power plants is still cleaner, cheaper and more efficient than using petrol or diesel.

Ultimately Mr Tilak Doshi and other EV cynics are people, who take delight in sensational or dramatic headlines like the "Dirty Secrets Of ‘Clean’ Electric Vehicles".

To them we will say "your time is up" and quote Nikola Tesla - "Electric power is everywhere present in unlimited quantities and can drive the world's machinery and vehicles without the need of coal, oil, gas"
https://www.pluginindia.com/electricvehiclegossip.html


And the debate goes on........

Quote from: Big Apple Caddy on February 07, 2021, 03:34:52 PM
I’m shocked that a current Senior Research Fellow at the King Abdullah Petroleum Studies and Research Center in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia and someone who has worked so extensively in the oil, gas and petroleum sectors as the author has would be anti-EV.  /S   (sarcasm)


A rebuttal (NOT mine) to the article:
This poorly researched opinion piece contains all the classic anti EV propaganda, which we have heard from the fossil fuel industry before and have been debunked by independent scientists and researchers. 

Before going further I'd like to know who these "independent scientists and researchers" are, and perhaps more importantly, who's writing the paychecks for all this "debunkery" to be done.

Until then, it doesn't appear you have anything better cooked up either and the last thing I trust is being given marching orders- especially when done under the cloak of altruism.

As you say, the debate goes on...

There is great optimism about batteries, but after 2 centuries of
development, I will believe what is actually delivered, not predictions. 
Keep in mind, those ranges are for ideal condition, not climbing
mountains and running the heater hard as frequently has happened
here in the land of snow and well below zero (-12F today). 
Bruce Roe

Quote from: bcroe on February 07, 2021, 09:46:55 PM
There is great optimism about batteries, but after 2 centuries of
development, I will believe what is actually delivered, not predictions. 
Keep in mind, those ranges are for ideal condition, not climbing
mountains and running the heater hard as frequently has happened
here in the land of snow and well below zero (-12F today). 
Bruce Roe

Or blowing the AC hard against 100+ heat in the summer (which doesn't have the same battery-draining issues as the cold, but has its own problems).

Quote from: bcroe on February 07, 2021, 09:46:55 PM
There is great optimism about batteries, but after 2 centuries of
development, I will believe what is actually delivered, not predictions. 
Keep in mind, those ranges are for ideal condition, not climbing
mountains and running the heater hard as frequently has happened
here in the land of snow and well below zero (-12F today).   
Bruce Roe   

Remember the prediction that computing power would double every few years??
Well that fizzled out over the past 10 years.

There's only so much you can do with the elements and their reactions there is a point of diminishing returns.

Tesla and Lucid are each expected to be releasing models this year with over 500 miles range.  The Tesla Roadster, due out next year, is expected to have a range of over 600 miles.  By comparison and since this is a GM/Cadillac focused forum, the 2-seater General Motors EV1 had an EPA estimated range of 55 miles (lead-acid battery) to 105 miles (NiMH battery) at the end of its run in 1999.

Quote from: Anderson on February 07, 2021, 05:09:28 AM
I got a 404-Page Not Found error.

On range potential: If you were to take the full-size car bodies of the late 1960s/early 1970s (or after the first wave of downsizing in the late 1970s), you have somewhere in the ballpark of 220 inches of body length to "play" with.  If you could take that extra length (extend the hood, extend the trunk, take your pick) and use it to double up on battery capacity, even accounting for the added weight you could probably "solve" the range problem right now (even if MPGe took a mild whack in the process) by doubling (or tripling) energy storage capacity.

On range issues in general: I'd point out that "range at time of sale" and "range over time" are not the same.  Per a Car and Driver piece:
"We were of course curious to see how our car's pack is faring over time, and the geektastic TeslaFi software we've used to track our car's more than 24,000 miles and each of the 842 times we've plugged it in has an answer...TeslaFi's battery-tracking tool puts our pack at 93 percent of its original 75.0-kWh capacity, a loss of about 22 miles of rated range from the original 310-mile EPA combined figure. This is based on the range data from the nearly 500 times we've charged our car to 90 percent of its capacity or above (see graph below)." [1]

The authors admit that their charging patterns aren't optimal, but that on a fleet average the loss is probably about 18 miles or so per a chart in the thread...which is still less than ideal.  The problem is still that whereas a standard gas car "dumping" that sort of mileage would simply mean more trips to the gas station (and memorizing where the nearest Costco/BJ's/Sam's Club was to one's routing), and for diesel a bit more mental work due to relative availability, for an electric car the risk of bleeding that sort of mileage on a charge runs a risk of turning into a serious inconvenience and hassle.  For example, at the 100k mile mark you're easily adding a charge (or two) to a trip from DC to Florida [2], which falls under the banner of "reasonable one-day trip".

This all goes back to a point I've made in multiple places: You really need something like a 400-mile "official" range to make a 300-mile range work, since after 4-5 years of regular use a 300-mile range...isn't, so you're now dipping down into a 300-mile range that is now perhaps 240-250 and needing to adjust from there (so your "practical" range starts dipping under 200 miles, depending on driving patterns and other conditions).

So at least for the moment, we're back to my cynicism about this really "taking" for another generation or so of cars.  We're /getting/ there, but we're not there yet.

===== ===== ===== ===== =====

Honestly, I find GM's stance to be somewhat boggling.  I get the signal they're sending and the pressures at play, but what I probably would have said is this:
"We expect to transition 80-90% of our production to electric by 2035.  The remainder, we expect to remain gas/diesel-based, because we have customers whose use cases aren't well-suited to electric vehicles.  In line with this, we expect to fully transition Cadillac and Buick to electric engines but we also expect that GMC will retain a significant internal combustion customer base and there may be some limited carry-over into Chevrolet given similar situations."

And TBF if I was in Ford's shoes I'd actually announce something like that as a response to GM's stance ("We recognize that use cases vary, so while we'll be doing X, Y, and Z as part of a transition, we're also going to keep producing a gas-powered F-150 for as long as market conditions permit it.")


[1] https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a35203450/tesla-model-3-battery-capacity-loss-warranty/
[2] Going to the math, DC to Orlando is right under 850 miles.  850/310=2.74, so if you start off close to full I'd presume two en-route charges would probably cut it (maybe with a supplemental charge if you're nervous around Palm Coast/Daytona Beach).  850/217 (70% of 310, which is what Tesla warranties batteries at for a 120k mile/8 year battery life)=3.92, so I really wouldn't expect to make it on three en route charges (since charger locations are not yet anywhere close to optimal).

My Model S has ~87,000 miles on it now and I have lost around 4% of it's total range as indicated by the range readout on the instrument cluster. With that said, I can easily beat that range estimate or I can come up vastly short just by driving style. This is no different than in a conventional car. My wife's car has a longer range than mine (rated for 310 miles) and we have taken that car on a  565 mile one way trip with one stop many times. In reality though, two shorter stops is actually faster since you will be charging in area of the battery range that can receive the highest current. In that range (between 10% and 70%), her car can get 100 miles of range in under 10 minutes. The bottom line is that unless you are driving hundreds of miles at a time regularly and you have a very set schedule that you have to maintain, charging on the road is not really that much of an issue.

Quote from: StevenTuck on February 08, 2021, 09:42:28 AM
I don't know much about the system but does it have a self charging feature in the system, similar to an generator/alternator? I can imagine that also there may be solar panels incorporated into the hood/roof/trunk of the cars.

All EVs recapture deceleration when you brake and convert it back into electricity to recharge the batteries. This usually extends the range about about 10 to 15% in day to day driving. At this point, solar panes would be a net loss in range. The added weight could not be recovered by the meager amount of power that they could produce. A large vehicle with every horizontal surface covered solar panels would only be able produce about 500 watts in full sunlight.

Optimum range happens non stop.  Regenerative braking is no where
near 100% efficient, the more braking you do, the shorter the range. 
The hybrids could help, but then why bother dragging around that
huge dead battery? 

The sun produces tons of energy, but it is only intense a short time
each day, and for many cloudy days, perhaps only 10% of peak hits
the ground.  Solar panels only get about 20% of that energy, and only
if they are aligned perpendicular to the rays.  I have a solar array 300
feet long and 10 feet high, on average it can supply this location, could
charge an EV most summer days.  You only get to drive it at night. 
Overall its sun energy collecting efficiency is less than 2%.  What could
be accomplished with vehicle mounted panels is essentially useless. 
Bruce Roe

 I hope that we can continue to drive our wonderful classics for a few more generations.  Theres nothing like the smell of burning gas and that old interior smell from a classic car. That being said I welcome the change,  I'd like to think that with the decline and abundance of gasoline these cars can be enjoyed much longer by someone.  And if it comes down to having to swap out our gas tanks for batteries and motors/transmissions to electric motors, I trust that there will be companies out there to cater to us.  Take a look at those "zelectric" cars on the west coast, it makes me hopeful that I can enjoy the drive of a big old cadillac even if I have to make some modifications.  Automated driving on the other hand F*** that, LOL

Something like a pickup or even larger trucks seem like they would have a much better chance of coming up with some sort of standardized swapable battery module or modules.    With cars the amount of available space would be a pretty limiting factor.

With the pickup maybe its got a built in battery that gets you the 100 miles you often need most of the time but there is a bigger one that slides into the bed for extended range when you need it?   Maybe this other battery will just be rented?   'Gas stations' will have them?   Maybe you have it normally plugged into your house for increased off peak or solar storage?   

Quote from: prewarcad on February 08, 2021, 11:03:59 AM
I drive a loaded pickup 450 miles one way every couple weeks. I'm intrigued by the Lordstown Motors electric pick up truck that's coming out this year but with a 250 mile maximum range, it just isn't going to do the job.

Full size Silverado/Sierra-like electric pickups, including ranges of over 400 miles, are among the vehicles GM is expected to launch by 2025.  Ford, Ram, Rivian and perhaps others will likely have similar pickups/ranges by then too.

Quote from: Tonyv_73 on February 08, 2021, 11:37:16 AM
I hope that we can continue to drive our wonderful classics for a few more generations.  Theres nothing like the smell of burning gas and that old interior smell from a classic car. That being said I welcome the change,  I'd like to think that with the decline and abundance of gasoline these cars can be enjoyed much longer by someone.  And if it comes down to having to swap out our gas tanks for batteries and motors/transmissions to electric motors, I trust that there will be companies out there to cater to us.  Take a look at those "zelectric" cars on the west coast, it makes me hopeful that I can enjoy the drive of a big old cadillac even if I have to make some modifications.  Automated driving on the other hand F*** that, LOL

I cannot think of a better car for an EV conversion than a classic land yacht. The point of those cars is to be smooth, quiet, and effortless and what better way than a virtually silent drivetrain with ample torque and no gears to shift.

Quote from: MaR on February 09, 2021, 03:05:17 PM
I cannot think of a better car for an EV conversion than a classic land yacht. The point of those cars is to be smooth, quiet, and effortless and what better way than a virtually silent drivetrain with ample torque and no gears to shift.

Recently, I read an article where Jay Leno mentioned he can't wait to convert his cars.  The Duesenbergs especially since he's tired of shifting them and longs for the day he can read a book behind a wheel - not.

I'll never do that.. someone else can, not me.  If the 2035 thing becomes real I'll get in line to make sure I buy the last ICE's off the line that gives ~10 years life beyond that ie 24 years before you have to go to a municipal airfield etc for fuel... I'll do that and build a shed on my property to store for driving them locally for pleasure.  The biggest challenge will be dealing with the backlash from people who think your ending the planet in 2050 by driving it because the Mayan calendar 2.0 or something says it will.

Here is a youtube video that I think did a really good job of explaining were things are now and what the current 'problem' is with ev adoption. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLcqJ2DclEg

the channel is wendover productions and the title is the electric vehicle charging problem for those that don't like clicking on links.

Quick summary for those that don't want to watch is that the Americans were surveyed and said the issues were cost, range, and charge time.   Cost is basically been solved,  range has also been solved.  Remaining issue is charge time but the charge time isn't a technical issue its lack of infrastructure that is further being hindered by lack of a standard or in other words a 'format war'.   

I really think the video is worth a watch because it touches on several aspects and gives some numbers and examples.   I think it would be an interesting watch for those that know barely anything about EV's.   I knew a lot of the bits but never saw them in one place in a nice package like this.   

Quote from: TJ Hopland on February 10, 2021, 01:38:49 AM
Here is a youtube video that I think did a really good job of explaining were things are now and what the current 'problem' is with ev adoption. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLcqJ2DclEg

the channel is wendover productions and the title is the electric vehicle charging problem for those that don't like clicking on links.

Quick summary for those that don't want to watch is that the Americans were surveyed and said the issues were cost, range, and charge time.   Cost is basically been solved,  range has also been solved.  Remaining issue is charge time but the charge time isn't a technical issue its lack of infrastructure that is further being hindered by lack of a standard or in other words a 'format war'.   

I really think the video is worth a watch because it touches on several aspects and gives some numbers and examples.   I think it would be an interesting watch for those that know barely anything about EV's.   I knew a lot of the bits but never saw them in one place in a nice package like this.

The biggest issue with "charge time" is that people are still thinking like you have to go somewhere to get electricity. 99% of the time, I do my charging either at work or at home when I'm not using the car.

Quote from: TJ Hopland on February 10, 2021, 01:38:49 AM
Here is a youtube video that I think did a really good job of explaining were things are now and what the current 'problem' is with ev adoption. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLcqJ2DclEg

the channel is wendover productions and the title is the electric vehicle charging problem for those that don't like clicking on links.

Quick summary for those that don't want to watch is that the Americans were surveyed and said the issues were cost, range, and charge time.   Cost is basically been solved,  range has also been solved.  Remaining issue is charge time but the charge time isn't a technical issue its lack of infrastructure that is further being hindered by lack of a standard or in other words a 'format war'.   

I really think the video is worth a watch because it touches on several aspects and gives some numbers and examples.   I think it would be an interesting watch for those that know barely anything about EV's.   I knew a lot of the bits but never saw them in one place in a nice package like this.

Range hasn't /quite/ been solved (at least for a reasonable cost), but we're getting there.  Give it a vehicle generation and we can probably talk.  Cost is working its way through, but there are certain if/then variables at play (see range).

Charge time is sort-of a technical problem in the sense that cramming a fast charge into a car still takes half an hour or so.  The Superchargers and their ilk help to a certain extent.

What's probably going to have to happen, frankly, is that either you're going to need a LOT more chargers (and a bit more speed on the rate of charge) alongside longer ranges (again, 1-2 more generations) alongside an enforced cease-fire in the format war (basically, you need adapters that go "both ways", Musk has to open up the Supercharger network, and we might ideally have a flat bar on "proprietary" setups going forward without providing adapters [something like the EU requirement to distribute USB-compatible charging adapters with Apple devices]).

Quote from: Anderson on February 11, 2021, 06:17:15 AM
Range hasn't /quite/ been solved (at least for a reasonable cost), but we're getting there.  Give it a vehicle generation and we can probably talk.  Cost is working its way through, but there are certain if/then variables at play (see range).

Charge time is sort-of a technical problem in the sense that cramming a fast charge into a car still takes half an hour or so.  The Superchargers and their ilk help to a certain extent.

What's probably going to have to happen, frankly, is that either you're going to need a LOT more chargers (and a bit more speed on the rate of charge) alongside longer ranges (again, 1-2 more generations) alongside an enforced cease-fire in the format war (basically, you need adapters that go "both ways", Musk has to open up the Supercharger network, and we might ideally have a flat bar on "proprietary" setups going forward without providing adapters [something like the EU requirement to distribute USB-compatible charging adapters with Apple devices]).

Having driven around 200,000 miles on various manufactures EVs, I can tell you that public fast charging is now where near as important as many people think. Musk as offered access to the Supercharger network for many years now just as long as whoever takes advantage of it also helps grow the network. So far, no other company has taken him up on the offer. Personally, I don't think that a government mandate is something that is needed. Something like that stifles innovation and what you end up with is engineering by committee. That is precisely why Tesla when with their own plug design over the Chademo or the CCS plugs.

What was the deal in the USA with phone chargers?   That was never a government mandate was it?    That must have been some sort of standards group?   Everyone except Apple went with micro usb?    Or is that sort of where we are now with Tesla being the Apple that isn't even close to the rest?    The Tesla super charger is basically a DC fast charger isn't it?   So technically making that work with other cars is really just a connector and software issue? 

I remember the phone thing because even Blacberry that was using mini usb had to switch,  I assumed that was part of the deal.   None of the other phone companies wanted to make it look they were switching to the blackberry connector so they invented or at least adopted the micro. 

It does seem like the industry and consumers would benefit from some sort of non government standards group.  Not being government they could likely be more dynamic when needed than government could be.   They could deal with things like the chargers as well as work with governments on safety related issues and things like training first responders.   They could also work with schools about education related to service.   

Quote from: TJ Hopland on February 11, 2021, 01:52:00 PM
What was the deal in the USA with phone chargers?   That was never a government mandate was it?    That must have been some sort of standards group?   Everyone except Apple went with micro usb?    Or is that sort of where we are now with Tesla being the Apple that isn't even close to the rest?    The Tesla super charger is basically a DC fast charger isn't it?   So technically making that work with other cars is really just a connector and software issue? 

I remember the phone thing because even Blacberry that was using mini usb had to switch,  I assumed that was part of the deal.   None of the other phone companies wanted to make it look they were switching to the blackberry connector so they invented or at least adopted the micro. 

It does seem like the industry and consumers would benefit from some sort of non government standards group.  Not being government they could likely be more dynamic when needed than government could be.   They could deal with things like the chargers as well as work with governments on safety related issues and things like training first responders.   They could also work with schools about education related to service.   

The whole back story on the Tesla connector goes like this: Back in 2010, before the Model S came out, Tesla was one of the auto makers that was on the SAE/ISO committee to design the DC fast charging plug. They (SAE/ISO/JIS) had already designed the J-1772 plug which is used for AC 120/240 volt charging. The proposed SAE/ISO plug would eventually be the CCS plug which takes the existing J-1772 plug and slaps to big conductors on the bottom. The resulting plug it quite large and because most of the weight is toward the bottom, it has a tendency to droop when it's plugged in which can disconnect the safety pin connection in the plug and shut it down. Teslas suggestion was to modify the J-1772 standard to be robust enough for AC and DC charging without extra pins. Nobody else wanted to change the standard so Tesla went out on their own and designed their own plug which is the same for all types of charging regardless of power draw. Having used every type of DC fast charging plug (CCS, chademo, and Tesla) the Tesla plug is by far the superior design from a functionality and ease of use point of view. In North America, the Tesla plug is so popular that EVgo (a nationwide network of DC fast charging locations) just announced that they are adding the Tesla plug to 650 of their DC fast charging locations. The bottom line is that if you were to just pick a standard right now, the Tesla plug would make the most sense simply because it's the most common socket on cars right now.

I did wonder how clunky some of those plugs are and if there were sag issues.   Sounds like there is.   

They are all 'smart' in some way aren't they?   There is some sort of data connection and a handshake negotiation on some level happens before any power flows?    That communication figures out what power is available and both sides do what ever configuring is needed before the power starts flowing.   That communication can also take care of linking accounts for billing if needed?  Again assuming there is some standards.

The other thing that seems crazy to me is very few to none of the charge ports appear to be set up to resist rain or snow.   They all have some sort of door or flap so why don't the flaps flip up and act as a little roof to deflect rain or snow?   Many of the connectors appear to actually angle up a bit so I would think that makes things even worse?    All these cars developed in the desert where rain isn't even a problem?

Quote from: TJ Hopland on February 11, 2021, 02:24:54 PM
I did wonder how clunky some of those plugs are and if there were sag issues.   Sounds like there is.   

They are all 'smart' in some way aren't they?   There is some sort of data connection and a handshake negotiation on some level happens before any power flows?    That communication figures out what power is available and both sides do what ever configuring is needed before the power starts flowing.   That communication can also take care of linking accounts for billing if needed?  Again assuming there is some standards.

The other thing that seems crazy to me is very few to none of the charge ports appear to be set up to resist rain or snow.   They all have some sort of door or flap so why don't the flaps flip up and act as a little roof to deflect rain or snow?   Many of the connectors appear to actually angle up a bit so I would think that makes things even worse?    All these cars developed in the desert where rain isn't even a problem?

The chademo and CCS plugs are very clunky, with the chademo plug being the worst of the two. In all of the plug types, there are several pins of different lengths. The ground is the longest and makes connection first, next will be the actual charging conductor pins, and finally the two communication lines. Only when the communication lines have made contact and have communicated with the car does the charging system allow the charging lines to become energized. When you unplug the car, the communication lines disconnect first which turns off the charging lines so there is no possibility of arcing when you unplug. Physically unplugging the car is actually the secondary method of disconnecting the power, there is a trigger on the plug that has to be pressed to unlock the plug and that is the primary method of stopping the power flow when disconnecting the plug. In non-Tesla DC charging there is no communication on the lines that handles billing. If the station is not free, the station must be authorized first with a billing method (like a self serve gas pump). On the Tesla Superchargers, the billing is all automatic. Plugging in the car triggers the car to communicate with the billing server and authorize the charges. When the session is over, you can see the total charges in the history and your card on file will be automatically billed. There is no input required after you have your billing method setup. If you have free charging credits or there is a free event happening, you won't be billed for the usage. Tesla will often make Superchargers free in an area that is under an evacuation notice because of weather or some other event. As for rain or snow, the plugs have seals on them that keep water out. Snow and ice build up is a possibility but it seems to rarely cause any issues.

Quote from: TJ Hopland on February 11, 2021, 01:52:00 PM
What was the deal in the USA with phone chargers?   That was never a government mandate was it?    That must have been some sort of standards group?   Everyone except Apple went with micro usb?    Or is that sort of where we are now with Tesla being the Apple that isn't even close to the rest?    The Tesla super charger is basically a DC fast charger isn't it?   So technically making that work with other cars is really just a connector and software issue? 

I remember the phone thing because even Blacberry that was using mini usb had to switch,  I assumed that was part of the deal.   None of the other phone companies wanted to make it look they were switching to the blackberry connector so they invented or at least adopted the micro. 

It does seem like the industry and consumers would benefit from some sort of non government standards group.  Not being government they could likely be more dynamic when needed than government could be.   They could deal with things like the chargers as well as work with governments on safety related issues and things like training first responders.   They could also work with schools about education related to service.   

The way I've interpreted it is that everyone went with microUSB except Apple...which did "their own thing".  I've heard a few theories as to why Apple did that...one is that the Lightning charger is superior while the other was that it was an effort to create a captive audience.  There are probably elements of both aspects at play.

An auto exec who has the courage to speak the truth.

Toyota’s Chief Says Electric Vehicles Are Overhyped
Akio Toyoda says converting entirely to EVs could cost hundreds of billions of dollars and make cars unaffordable for average people


https://www.wsj.com/articles/toyotas-chief-says-electric-vehicles-are-overhyped-11608196665?fbclid=IwAR0GORe91cfVKL8NnpZ--2-T58CoKsu0KdQSRV6y2F-bibyj-8QmrJE6gZ8

Quote from: Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621 on February 15, 2021, 06:40:44 PM
An auto exec who has the courage to speak the truth.

Toyota’s Chief Says Electric Vehicles Are Overhyped
Akio Toyoda says converting entirely to EVs could cost hundreds of billions of dollars and make cars unaffordable for average people


https://www.wsj.com/articles/toyotas-chief-says-electric-vehicles-are-overhyped-11608196665?fbclid=IwAR0GORe91cfVKL8NnpZ--2-T58CoKsu0KdQSRV6y2F-bibyj-8QmrJE6gZ8

Toyota has been pushing fuel cell cars for years and years now so they have a vested interested in avoiding the pure EV route. They have finally had a change of heart recently and announced two EVs for the US market for 2021 seeing how fuel cell cars are basically a dead end.

Quote from: MaR on February 10, 2021, 10:28:12 AM
The biggest issue with "charge time" is that people are still thinking like you have to go somewhere to get electricity. 99% of the time, I do my charging either at work or at home when I'm not using the car.

And that does not work on a long trip.

Quote from: cadillacmike68 on February 15, 2021, 08:53:55 PM
And that does not work on a long trip.

But as EVs become more plentiful hotels/motels will have chargers in their parking lots where you can charge you car. Restaurants along the major routes will also have them to charge while you eat.   

Quote from: cadillacmike68 on February 15, 2021, 08:53:55 PM
And that does not work on a long trip.

And if all you do is long trips an electric car is the wrong choice for you today.   Many people only drive 50 miles per day and that is well within the range of every e car sold today.   The other thing that helps with todays somewhat limited range and long charge times is many houses have more than one car and its very rare that both cars need to do a long trip at the same time.   Im  sure there are people that do need every car to do a long trip often but there are more where that isn't really needed.    It actually could work well for many people.   You could have your classic or big SUV for the long trips where you needed the space or comfort or towing but when not doing the long trips you have the EV for running around town.   

Quote from: Glen on February 16, 2021, 12:26:43 AM
But as EVs become more plentiful hotels/motels will have chargers in their parking lots where you can charge you car. Restaurants along the major routes will also have them to charge while you eat.

They just put two chargers in at my local gas station....  Guess the owner sees the writing on the wall.

Quote from: francisthepig on February 16, 2021, 12:47:57 AM
They just put two chargers in at my local gas station....  Guess the owner sees the writing on the wall.

And maybe a captive audience that will maybe come in and buy some stuff while they are waiting.   

For a gas station I wonder what the costs of a charging station are vs a pump as far as what it cost to install and maintain?  I would not think pumps are cheap on their own then you have the cost of the tanks plus installing them especially below ground.   I would guess just like gas there isn't going to be a lot of profit to be made from the fuel itself.   

Seems like a business opportunity, the travel oasis sort of thing where you own or at least profit some way from stuff to sell to travelers getting fuel and at least for now with slow charge times they will be there for a while so if you can even keep them there longer there will be more profit.

You look at many of the places you see the Tesla chargers you wonder if maybe the landlords give tesla a pretty good deal on the rent because they are bringing people to the area which is often a strip mall sort of place and other than few parking spaces its pretty low risk to the landlords because I assume Tesla pays for the rest.  Even if it goes bust and they don't remove their equipment its not like people could not still park there so no loss to the mall.   

Quote from: francisthepig on February 16, 2021, 12:47:57 AM
They just put two chargers in at my local gas station....  Guess the owner sees the writing on the wall.

The other perspective is that selling gas itself is generally pretty low margin (partly because of the degree to which many fuel wholesalers will vary their pricing between stations).  A lot of time you're looking at them making at most a few cents a gallon on a regular basis.  Most of their margin is "in the store", and with "pay at the pump" meaning most folks don't have to go into the store anymore...

Well, that means that where a customer who comes in for gas might have a 30-50% chance of coming in (if that), I'd bet that someone charging for 30 minutes is going to be predisposed to come in and get a sandwich, etc.  So electric cars coming in for a charge are likely to be substantially more profitable, per capita, than gas cars.  They might even be more profitable even if the station owner eats the cost of the charge.  That's just a function of where the margins are, etc.

Quote from: francisthepig on February 16, 2021, 12:47:57 AM
They just put two chargers in at my local gas station....  Guess the owner sees the writing on the wall.

Gasoline pumps will slowly start to be converted to EV charging stations in the coming years and decades.

Instead of just regular, plus and premium, you will start to see things like the attached:

Quote from: cadillacmike68 on February 15, 2021, 08:53:55 PM


And that does not work on a long trip.

I have taken many, many long trips in EVs and the time difference is negligible. In fact, the last 1200 round trip I took had no difference in travel time.

Quote from: MaRI have taken many, many long trips in EVs and the time difference is negligible. In fact, the last 1200 round trip I took had no difference in travel time. 

I used to have a regular annual routine of long trips, the 900 mile
only involved 2 stops, average speed (including stops) was 66 mph
without doing anything risky.  The 1100 mile trip took more stops,
the 1250 mile a bit of a marathon, average speed still pretty close
to the same.  That will not be duplicated by an electric vehicle. 

Bruce Roe

Quote from: prewarcad on February 16, 2021, 10:28:57 AM
That's not possible unless you're in the habit of stopping regularly for long periods of time. I actually need to be somewhere and routinely drive 450-500 miles straight in a work day only stopping quick for bathroom breaks and fuel. There is no electric vehicle made (yet) that has that capability, and that's just a passenger car. Add the shear weight of a loaded pickup truck traveling 70 mph for 6-8 hours and the EV range and travel time becomes drastically worse than the advertised numbers.
FWIW, Tesla makes the longest range EV, advertised at 402 miles. That number was surely acquired under perfect test conditions and probably isn't close to that in real world driving.

We stop one time to eat lunch and charged while we ate. My wife's car has a range of 325 miles and we stopped with about 40 miles left as indicated by the car. We run with traffic the entire way with autopilot set and we have done this trip many, many times in several different vehicles including two different EVs.

Quote from: bcroe on February 16, 2021, 10:00:52 AM
I used to have a regular annual routine of long trips, the 900 mile
only involved 2 stops, average speed (including stops) was 66 mph
without doing anything risky.  The 1100 mile trip took more stops,
the 1250 mile a bit of a marathon, average speed still pretty close
to the same.  That will not be duplicated by an electric vehicle. 

Bruce Roe

Never say never. The upcoming Lucid Air and the upcoming Model S Dual Motor with the 4680 cells will be able to handle that with no issues at all.

Quote from: MaR on February 16, 2021, 03:26:07 PM
Never say never. The upcoming Lucid Air and the upcoming Model S Dual Motor with the 4680 cells will be able to handle that with no issues at all.

I will not be holding my breath.  May I should have mentioned the
mountains and cold weather.  Bruce Roe

Whatever happens will happen, and we will become accustomed to doing what we need to do, just as the first motorists did when the transition from the horse and cart.

Back then, the thoughts was what are we going to do when the petrol runs out, and I can't find a Drug Store to buy some more?   At least, with my horse, it kept on going, and virtually fed itself from trackside vegetation.

Bruce. >:D

PS.   Plus, I could have a nap when I felt like it, and ol' Faithful would still keep on plodding along.

Quote from: The Tassie Devil(le) on February 16, 2021, 06:12:16 PM
Plus, I could have a nap when I felt like it, and ol' Faithful would still keep on plodding along.

You mean Tesla didn't invent that?   And you don't have to shove oranges in the steering wheel so you can really sleep?  Guess nothing is really new. 

I'm watching all the headlines out of Texas... couple dozen deaths, funeral homes requesting ice trucks since they don't have power etc.  How is this going to work??  Don't say solar panels, my home just today saw the sun after almost a week.  My home is 100% electric... it sucks in an outage.  The only solace I have is a FWD vehicle in the garage to get my wife and I out if needed.  When I use a generator I have to chose what to run.  Recently, my neighbor buried a propane tank to run the house during an outage... I may follow suit.  People need to embrace nuclear if this is going to be realistic. My two cents..

And I saw on the news last night that somewhere the Wing Generators in one place froze solid in the cold weather.

Bruce. >:D

Does anyone care to project electric rates for a 100% EV fleet and the strain it would impose on an already overtaxed electrical grid? Instead of just California having rolling blackouts it will be the entire country. Then people die. Just look at a single cold snap has done to Texas leaving millions without power and at the worst possible time under the worst conditions imaginable. Time for people to wake up for this is just a foretaste.

Warren Buffet once called Bitcoin “rat poison squared”. EVs are exactly the same except they are worse.

I am going on a tongue in cheek rant, since the whole thread is making me ill.

So let's cover the entire surface of the earth with Chinese solar panels while we are at it.

Who cares what the scenery will  look like, or if we cover farmland. Power over food to eat.  Maybe we can have floating solar panels floating in the oceans?

Dream big like a climate czar! Who draws a government paycheck or some subsidy at the common person's expense.

Then we can pile of the tons and tons of toxic batteries in a hidden away location and pretend there is no ecological consequence to all the waste we have created.

Now do people really think humans are the main driver in climate change? The biggest variable is yes can I say it the SUN!!!!! It changes in intensity, it is not set at a temperature and never varies from it. It changes. So when it does the climate changes. Also the earth wobbles on it's axis and seasons change every 26,000 years. I wonder if that bar maid AOC knows that?  It's called precession of the axis.

There was an ice age about 10,000 years ago. I guess those Neanderthals driving their cars caused that climate change! So how come the earth had an ice age without fossils fuels if climate never changes.

The fact is they really do not know, but when there is money to be made they are experts. How can we tell what is natural change and what is man made?

I love being told about the science from politicians with legal degrees. I know a few lawyers and science is not their academic strength. It's like going to a ditch digger to get medical advice. Nothing against a ditch digger.

OK I feel much better now.


So I say if your 60 or older do not worry about it, we will most likely be dead.  Enjoy driving when summer gets here. Since this winter has not been fun. I  look forward to some summer global warming. I am going to burn all the premium octane I can get my hands on, unless our leaders drive the price up to $5.00 a gallon.

Quote from: gkhashem on February 16, 2021, 09:05:02 PM
I am going on a tongue in cheek rant, since the whole thread is making me ill.

So let's cover the entire surface of the earth with Chinese solar panels while we are at it.

Who cares what the scenery will  look like, or if we cover farmland. Power over food to eat.  Maybe we can have floating solar panels floating in the oceans?

Dream big like a climate czar! Who draws a government paycheck or some subsidy at the common person's expense.

Then we can pile of the tons and tons of toxic batteries in a hidden away location and pretend there is no ecological consequence to all the waste we have created.

Now do people really think humans are the main driver in climate change? The biggest variable is yes can I say it the SUN!!!!! It changes in intensity, it is not set at a temperature and never varies from it. It changes. So when it does the climate changes. Also the earth wobbles on it's axis and seasons change every 26,000 years. I wonder if that bar maid AOC knows that?  It's called precession of the axis.

There was an ice age about 10,000 years ago. I guess those Neanderthals driving their cars caused that climate change! So how come the earth had an ice age without fossils fuels if climate never changes.

The fact is they really do not know, but when there is money to be made they are experts. How can we tell what is natural change and what is man made?

I love being told about the science from politicians with legal degrees. I know a few lawyers and science is not their academic strength. It's like going to a ditch digger to get medical advice. Nothing against a ditch digger.

OK I feel much better now.


So I say if your 60 or older do not worry about it, we will most likely be dead.  Enjoy driving when summer gets here. Since this winter has not been fun. I  look forward to some summer global warming. I am going to burn all the premium octane I can get my hands on, unless our leaders drive the price up to $5.00 a gallon.

Amen.  At one point in time my property was at the bottom of the ocean.  The reason it is above sea level now isn't because dinosaurs rolled around in cars. I envy some of you older folks...I'm in my early 40's and hope for better days.  Over 20 years ago I had a professor that cringed at all the biased research that was being done at the time.

Quote from: gkhashem on February 16, 2021, 09:05:02 PM
I am going on a tongue in cheek rant, since the whole thread is making me ill.

So let's cover the entire surface of the earth with Chinese solar panels while we are at it.

Who cares what the scenery will  look like, or if we cover farmland. Power over food to eat.  Maybe we can have floating solar panels floating in the oceans?

Dream big like a climate czar! Who draws a government paycheck or some subsidy at the common person's expense.

Then we can pile of the tons and tons of toxic batteries in a hidden away location and pretend there is no ecological consequence to all the waste we have created.

Now do people really think humans are the main driver in climate change? The biggest variable is yes can I say it the SUN!!!!! It changes in intensity, it is not set at a temperature and never varies from it. It changes. So when it does the climate changes. Also the earth wobbles on it's axis and seasons change every 26,000 years. I wonder if that bar maid AOC knows that?  It's called precession of the axis.

There was an ice age about 10,000 years ago. I guess those Neanderthals driving their cars caused that climate change! So how come the earth had an ice age without fossils fuels if climate never changes.

The fact is they really do not know, but when there is money to be made they are experts. How can we tell what is natural change and what is man made?

I love being told about the science from politicians with legal degrees. I know a few lawyers and science is not their academic strength. It's like going to a ditch digger to get medical advice. Nothing against a ditch digger.

OK I feel much better now.


So I say if your 60 or older do not worry about it, we will most likely be dead.  Enjoy driving when summer gets here. Since this winter has not been fun. I  look forward to some summer global warming. I am going to burn all the premium octane I can get my hands on, unless our leaders drive the price up to $5.00 a gallon.

::)

Quote from: gkhashemI am going on a tongue in cheek rant, since the whole thread is making me ill.
So let's cover the entire surface of the earth with Chinese solar panels while we are at it.
Who cares what the scenery will  look like, or if we cover farmland. Power over food to eat.  Maybe we can have floating solar panels floating in the oceans?

Then we can pile of the tons and tons of toxic batteries in a hidden away location and pretend there is no ecological consequence to all the waste we have created.

Now do people really think humans are the main driver in climate change? The biggest variable is yes can I say it the SUN!!!!! It changes in intensity, it is not set at a temperature and never varies from it. It changes. So when it does the climate changes. Also the earth wobbles on it's axis and seasons change every 26,000 years. I wonder if that bar maid AOC knows that?  It's called precession of the axis.

The fact is they really do not know, but when there is money to be made they are experts.

OK I feel much better now.  I am going to burn all the premium octane I can get my hands on, unless our leaders drive the price up to $5.00 a gallon. 

I observe, industry promotes what they know how to make today.  That is
solar panels (and other renewables) and batteries.  The tree huggers are all
out to solve our problems with these items. 
My property is carbon neutral, power comes from a marriage called NET METERING,
between my solar panels and the power co nuke plant, there are NO BATTERIES.  I
am not a tree hugger, but an engineer that believes in things that actually work. 
Seems like our best shot is totally redesigned thorium Nuke, and India will try to
prove it in my lifetime.  Meantime, all my engines will run just fine on crap 87
unleaded.  Bruce Roe

Quote from: Glen on February 16, 2021, 12:26:43 AM
But as EVs become more plentiful hotels/motels will have chargers in their parking lots where you can charge you car. Restaurants along the major routes will also have them to charge while you eat.

Partially recharging a battery is never a good thing. It shortens the life of the battery.

And who is to say there will even be an open charger any place you stop at???

Quote from: cadillacmike68 on February 16, 2021, 11:51:35 PMPartially recharging a battery is never a good thing. It shortens the life of the battery.

It depend on what kind of batteries you are talking about.  NiCads sure but there isn't much that uses those anymore.   There are many types including those commonly used in electric cars (and just about everything people re charge these days) that actually have longer life if you keep them kinda in the middle.   They will also take a much higher charge rate in that middle range than they will when you get closer to full.     

You can actually spend less time charging if you can charge often than the time it takes to do a full charge and cover the same distance just because the charge rate.   The last 80-100% can take as long as it does to go from 30-80%.     Lets say you only get 1 mile per percent so that 30-80 gets you 50 miles and takes one hour.  If you wait another hour you only get another 20 miles.   If you have to go 70 miles you have to wait that extra hour but if you can charge along the way you may only need to charge for 15 mins to gain that 20 miles that would have taken an hour. 

Will that work for everyone?  No but could it work for some people?  Sure.   Tesla's have an app built in to help you figure out trips based on charging.   There are apps for everyone else and you can program in all your preferences for frequent vs long stops even down to what kind of food or other stuff may be around the charging stations.  The apps also can tell you and redirect you if a charging station is full assuming there are options,  it may tell you that the north station is full but 1/2 the stalls are open at the south one.     

Quote from: TJ Hopland on February 17, 2021, 12:28:29 AM
It depend on what kind of batteries you are talking about.  NiCads sure but there isn't much that uses those anymore.   There are many types including those commonly used in electric cars (and just about everything people re charge these days) that actually have longer life if you keep them kinda in the middle.   They will also take a much higher charge rate in that middle range than they will when you get closer to full.     

You can actually spend less time charging if you can charge often than the time it takes to do a full charge and cover the same distance just because the charge rate.   The last 80-100% can take as long as it does to go from 30-80%.     Lets say you only get 1 mile per percent so that 30-80 gets you 50 miles and takes one hour.  If you wait another hour you only get another 20 miles.   If you have to go 70 miles you have to wait that extra hour but if you can charge along the way you may only need to charge for 15 mins to gain that 20 miles that would have taken an hour. 

Will that work for everyone?  No but could it work for some people?  Sure.   Tesla's have an app built in to help you figure out trips based on charging.   There are apps for everyone else and you can program in all your preferences for frequent vs long stops even down to what kind of food or other stuff may be around the charging stations.  The apps also can tell you and redirect you if a charging station is full assuming there are options,  it may tell you that the north station is full but 1/2 the stalls are open at the south one.     

When you put a destination in to the navigation system in a Tesla, it calculates the trip and adds in any charging stops that would be needed along the way. It will re-route you in the event that a scheduled Supercharger is full (you can see the usage in real time) and if your battery is not at the optimal temperature for DC charging, it will pre-condition the battery as you approach the charging location. Amenities are listed for each location as well as costs. The suggested charging time is optimized for trip speed rather than getting a "full tank" at each stop.

Quote from: Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621 on February 16, 2021, 08:41:04 PM
Does anyone care to project electric rates for a 100% EV fleet and the strain it would impose on an already overtaxed electrical grid? Instead of just California having rolling blackouts it will be the entire country. Then people die. Just look at a single cold snap has done to Texas leaving millions without power and at the worst possible time under the worst conditions imaginable. Time for people to wake up for this is just a foretaste.

Warren Buffet once called Bitcoin “rat poison squared”. EVs are exactly the same except they are worse.

I'm going to reply to your comment alongside a lot of other sturm und drang here:

If there's going to be an EV push, then it needs to be accompanied by three other things:
-One is a move to much, much more distributed battery storage (like what Musk set up in Australia) to ensure that there's a day or two of power backed up.  That won't avoid all of the power cuts from when a tree comes down, for example, but it'll limit the frequency of those cuts and limit issues with midday rolling blackouts (since you can "fill up" the batteries at times of lower demand).

-Second is that there needs to be a serious mandate that state/local authorities /must/ provide enough power generating capacity, to the point of force-issuing permits for power plants (and settling lost land value suits afterwards) as long as safety criteria are met (e.g. no putting a nuclear plant on a major fault line).

-The final one, frankly, is that we need to reassess having nuclear power as part of the system.  This actually goes back to the battery storage front: Nuclear power works best when it's always running.  If you have the power grid set up whereby you're consuming X amount of power during the day but you can keep production closer to stable at night even when consumption drops because you're charging up the batteries (and not having to push production quite so much during the peak 2-4 hours of the day).  The big thing is that nuclear generation isn't likely to get hosed because you have a foot of snow fall (or a bunch of dust blow in) and the panels are covered, or because the wind goes slack.  I know that solar generation doesn't necessarily go to zero and that panels are likely to clear off /relatively/ fast, but that doesn't avoid the fact that this can cause nasty, badly-timed cuts in capacity.  Also, putting nuclear online means you can pull all sorts of other stuff (oil/gas/coal) offline faster.

TL;DR: I think it's quite plausible to get to a workable grid that's either zero-emissions or close-to-zero emissions, but it still needs a lot of work.

Quote from: Anderson on February 17, 2021, 04:17:11 PM


If there's going to be an EV push, then it needs to be accompanied by three other things:
-One is a move to much, much more distributed battery storage (like what Musk set up in Australia) to ensure that there's a day or two of power backed up.  That won't avoid all of the power cuts from when a tree comes down, for example, but it'll limit the frequency of those cuts and limit issues with midday rolling blackouts (since you can "fill up" the batteries at times of lower demand).

-Second is that there needs to be a serious mandate that state/local authorities /must/ provide enough power generating capacity, to the point of force-issuing permits for power plants (and settling lost land value suits afterwards) as long as safety criteria are met (e.g. no putting a nuclear plant on a major fault line).

I have a far better idea. It's called the free market system - the most efficient allocator of scarce & valuable resources that has ever been and can never be improved upon until the end of time.

That which is desired should never need to be "pushed." If it does, it is undesirable by definition.

I wonder if it could end up being that the cars get connected to the grid when not in use?   Its a lot of battery capacity that is available.   There could be incentive programs to help get the capacity where it was needed when it was needed.   I'm not saying 'free money' either.   The power companies have to buy the power from somewhere so they may buy it from a customer instead of another power company.  The tech to actively manage that is already around so its just getting the scale to a point its workable. 

Quote from: Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621 on February 17, 2021, 04:37:42 PM

I have a far better idea. It's called the free market system - the most efficient allocator of scarce & valuable resources that has ever been and can never be improved upon until the end of time.

That which is desired should never need to be "pushed." If it does, it is undesirable by definition.

Absolutely correct, except Eric you do not know what you desire or need. Someone else needs to decide that for you and me. ::)

Quote from: TJ Hopland on February 17, 2021, 05:07:14 PM
I wonder if it could end up being that the cars get connected to the grid when not in use?   Its a lot of battery capacity that is available.   There could be incentive programs to help get the capacity where it was needed when it was needed.   I'm not saying 'free money' either.   The power companies have to buy the power from somewhere so they may buy it from a customer instead of another power company.  The tech to actively manage that is already around so its just getting the scale to a point its workable.

"V2G" (vehicle to grid) is something that has been discussed, desired, teased, and will most likely be available soon. Some cars have the hardware installed already, just no software and others will need upgrades to be able to do it. It's first use will be as a whole house UPS for power outages but later when batteries become a bit more durable, a large fleet of cars could be used as a grid buffer when not in use.

Quote from: Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621 on February 17, 2021, 04:37:42 PM

I have a far better idea. It's called the free market system - the most efficient allocator of scarce & valuable resources that has ever been and can never be improved upon until the end of time.

That which is desired should never need to be "pushed." If it does, it is undesirable by definition.

So, much to something of my long-standing surprise I'm going to disagree here.  The concept of a "free market" generally ignores both non-immediate costs (for several different reasons) and issues such as switching costs which enable rent-seeking.  They're called "externalities" (and a lot of argumentation over, say, fuel taxes comes down to fighting over properly pricing those externalities).

An easy example here would be Apple: They've built a highly useful ecosystem of products (yay), but if Apple starts doing something you don't like, the way things are tied together makes switching over to another company (presumably Android) tricky.

Another example of an issue would be that as long as they can pass the issue through to their consumers, power companies don't necessarily have an incentive to resolve issues or prevent relatively rare events (I'm not talking "Black Swan" events out in the 1-in-a-million end of things, but rather things which might reasonably happen with some frequency...just with a relatively long timespan in this context [5-25 years comes to mind]).  In the case of Texas, this /particular/ issue is not necessarily foreseeable...but the broader issue of dealing with power outages does become problematic if there is a policy-based desire to move to electric motive power for personal vehicles.

As to the power generation side of things, I'd argue that any assertion that this is guided primarily by market forces is an exercise in delusion.  The degree to which NIMBY groups can prevent the installation of additional capacity is a very real problem; in this case, I'm referring to one part of the government needing to "drop a brick" on another part of the government.  Some of the issue here is fundamentally that there /is/ demand (either at present or foreseen on a relevant timescale...it does take a few years to build a new power plant, for example) but the permitting process can be sufficiently blocked-up that it fundamentally doesn't do what it "needs" to from at least one perspective.

Anyhow...the point I'm getting at with all of this is that when long-term policy planning comes into the mix (particularly when there's a real risk of "path dependence" for large segments of the market), a pure free market approach is a non-starter here.  It is all too possible for all actors in a situation to act ideally in line with their interests (either immediate or long-term) and the result to still be exceedingly sub-optimal.

Quote from: Anderson on February 18, 2021, 01:14:37 PM
Anyhow...the point I'm getting at with all of this is that when long-term policy planning comes into the mix (particularly when there's a real risk of "path dependence" for large segments of the market), a pure free market approach is a non-starter here.  It is all too possible for all actors in a situation to act ideally in line with their interests (either immediate or long-term) and the result to still be exceedingly sub-optimal.

While entirely possible its never the permanent result when the free market is left to its own devices.  Far worse results come from attempts to eliminate every bump in the road that comes along - real or imagined, indeed contrived for cynical & self-serving purposes under the cloak of altruism.

The most inefficient policy of all is that which comes from those who bear little or no consequence of their hubris and/or ineptitude.

"The most inefficient policy of all is that which comes from those who bear little or no consequence of their hubris and/or ineptitude.:

That brings to mind nursing home residents in New York and that state's governor dealings with them.
Ciao,
Mario Caimotto

With all the oil we're not using in cars / trucks, we can burn it in more electric plants.   :P

The conversion to all electric is starting to gain momentum.
GM has started advertising the new Hummer EV. I checked it out on the GMC website and it is pretty amazing.
I would encourage anyone who has posted on this topic to check it out. This vehicle is just the beginning of an onslaught of new products and ideas that will be coming to market over the next few years.
I think GM has done an outstanding job with the Hummer.
Comments from the chorus?
John Adams

The GMC Hummer is one of many new EVs on the horizon.  It will be interesting to see how things play out.  Also, it looks like the "GREEN act" may bring federal EV tax credits back to GM and Tesla for a few hundred thousand more sales.

Even if all cars are electric by 2035, the average age of a car on the road today is 12 years (might be 15 years old now), so worst case gasoline should be available into the the late 2040's, or another 25 years or so - who knows then what will be reality?

I think it is quite possible. General Motors, one of the first in the world to produce electric cars back in 1996, has invested more than $35 billion in the area's development. By 2025, more than 30 models of electric vehicles are expected to be available for sale worldwide. Ford intends to sell only electric cars in Europe by 2030. The plan is to make all passenger cars zero-emission vehicles by 2026. That is, either all-electric or hybrid. I read about it in automotive news on zumroad.com (https://zumroad.com/automotive). In ten years, I hope I'll buy myself a brand-new electric car.

Not being political, but this is totally political. I will stop there.

The Corvette C8 Z06 engine will probably be the last internal combustion engine ever developed. Nice that is also the most powerful naturally asperated internal combustion engine in history. They also have a program where you can assist assembling your engine. Might be tough to install in an old Caddy.

As Phil pointed out this is (largely) a political discussion. In another thread Laurie was basically making similar comments along with others (which were censored). Another example of politics being difficult to separate from our Cadillacs especially as all ICE cars will be impacted by so-called "green politics". Clay/Lexi

Without being political I personally believe hydrogen would be a much better way to go as internal combustion engines can run on it. We have seen big financial incentives here in the UK to buy EVs but already these are being stepped back.

Hydrogen? Think Hindenburg airship. And its cells were not under high pressure as they are in a vehicle.
Our modern gas tanks are not pressurized very much. But a hydrogen vehicle tank is...in spades. Can you say: BOOM?
To make hydrogen it takes huge amounts of electricity....huge. Its not practical on a large scale.

EV is the future, the future for Cadillac, but gas will be around for a long while. No worries.
New fusion and quantum torsion field zero point technologies from the US military will power the grid by 2040. Mostly.
The military uses them in secret, but its a badly kept secret. (Deep Underground Military Bases, DUMBS. Ravenrock, Mount Weather.)
Fossil fuels must go away. Its a National Security and defense issue. Much better batteries are on the way.

Im 60.
By the time Im 80, Id like one or two of my vintage Caddies converted to EV.
The rest will be a static display. There are, and will be, fewer shops and mechanics willing to work on them. I bought my 61 CDV from a woman in NC. She said she couldn't get anyone to work on it within a 75-mile circle.

Caddy concept car.
Screen Shot 2022-12-18 at 4.25.14 PM.png