I know its a subjective thing,and motors notwithstanding wondering what people think will stand the test of time better the 80-85 eldo/bairtiz or the seville of the same vintage.no one has a crystal ball just looking for thoughts.Thanks Bill
Quote from: BL14869I know its a subjective thing,and motors notwithstanding wondering what people think will stand the test of time better the 80-85 eldo/bairtiz or the seville of the same vintage.no one has a crystal ball just looking for thoughts.Thanks Bill
Quote from: BL14869I know its a subjective thing,and motors notwithstanding wondering what people think will stand the test of time better the 80-85 eldo/bairtiz or the seville of the same vintage.no one has a crystal ball just looking for thoughts.Thanks Bill
I would say they both would be equal in the future. They both have classic styling of earlier vintage classic cars. The Eldo is more sporty, while the Seville is more formal.
My thought is that the Eldos seem to be picking up value for nice clean examples, especially the convertible.
The Sevilles seem to have a "love it" or "hate it" styling. I like em, but I have an Eldo Convert (85) that I have owned since 1990 that I plan to hold onto. The 4100 has been rock solid, and with 115K, I hope that I am past the danger point.
I have pulled these engines and re-installed after a rebuild, and its a job, but a backyard mechanic can handle it.
I think that a 79 or 80 with the 368 steel motor would be the way to go, if you can find a clean one. The must run better than the 4100s.
Just my 2 cents worth.
Brian
85 eldo convertable, only 2300 made I think. In actual inflation adjusted dollars at least when produced and up till at least 1990, the most expensive production automobile ever made in America. I did read that. 85 eldo conv, with out question. Also, last factory authorized production convertable , i believe Art
[ I did read that. 85 eldo conv, with out question. Also, last factory authorized production convertable , i believe Art]
Always an interesting subject. Orginally the 76 Eldos were supposed to be the last of the Cadillac convetibles until the 85s came along. Then came the Allantes and now we have the XLRs!
That last post subject should have read:
Last Production Convertible Cadillac????
I have the remains of the original invoice on the 85 Convert. I remember it was about $40,000 new, after the dealer added on some extras like Vogues, RR style grill, and a few other goodies.
I bought the car from friends of my family, and they bought it new. It had about 70,000 miles on it at the time in 1990.
They traded in a 1982 Hess and Eisenhardt conversion on this "factory" car.
Unfortunately, I had it outside, and time took its toll on the paint, which needs to be re-done. I am in the process of building a garage behind my house, and this car will be treated to a full cosmetic restoration over the coming winter. I purchased all the exterior chrome from Caddy in the early 1990s and have everything exept the belt line mouldings that go around the convertible top opening. I will be getting them re-chromed.
I plan to take lots of pics of the car as I re-do it.
I also have a 76 Eldo Convert. They made 14,000 of the 76s but only 2300 of the 85s. The 85 is rarer, but the 76 makes such a statement, and is SO much more of a car in every way. Its engine size is exactly double.
The 85 is much more nimble to drive, handles great, and is MUCH better on fuel. The HT4100 should have an EPO rating (engines per ownership)instead of the MPG rating, which is pretty good.
The HT4100 chapters message board has been a big help and should be joined by anyone with a HT4100 powered car.
Regards,
Brian
I owned one till 3 years ago. Serial number, 1g6el6788fe633372, sticker price, 35,076. had to sell it to restore my 49. Sad when that car went.
I believe, as my post stated, last factory authorized convertable. I believe all 85s were produced as coupes. Cadillac authorized to their specs conversion by a few companies. Maybe Yann will chime in.
Quote from: Art322010I believe, as my post stated, last factory authorized convertable. I believe all 85s were produced as coupes. Cadillac authorized to their specs conversion by a few companies. Maybe Yann will chime in.
I dont mean to be argumentative, but you bring up an interesting point as to what is the last "authorized" Cadillac Convertible. It is my impression from your posts that you consider the 85s as the last "authorized" Cadillac convertibles, is this what you think? If so, I then ask you how about the Allantes and the SLRs? Wouldnt they both be "authorized" Cadillac Convertibles?
Sorry John, not argumentative at all. I appreciate your response. Actually, my first response had mentioned that in my opinion, the 85 Eldo was the collectable car of the period the original inquirer had asked for. So the response preceded the others. The following comments by me were already prefaced by my earlier comments, which remain the same. The cars you refer to were not Eldorodos. In my opinion only, The future collectable cars of this period, not withstanding the brief production period of the Allantes, nor the new XLR, is the 85 Eldorodo Convertable, I believe, the last factory produced, if you wish or factory authorized, as they were. Hope this helps any confusion and dont misunderstand, I love all Cadillacs
Art, thanks for the clarification. Of course now you bring up another interesting point, the difference between factory produced and factory authorized, and just for good measure lets throw in "after market conversions" LOL
Allow me to give my thoughts. I dont believe that after 1976 Cadillac built any convertibles at their factories. I think they outsourced them to quality coachworks, then sold them as "factory authorized". In other words in my mind an "official" Cadillac convertible after 1976 is one a buyer could buy from a Cadillac dealership with full warranty from Cadillac. I am not sure what the situation is with the aftermarket conversions that werent "authorized" by Cadillac.
Personally myself, I prefer the hardtop Eldorado coupes of that period over the convertibles. Actually I prefer the all steel tops over the half vinyl and full simulated tops. Part of the appeal of the styling is the roof line with the squared off rear window.
As I stated before, I like both the Seville and Eldorados of that period, and would be glad to have the Seville instead of the Eldorado I now own, which I ordered new.
Johnny, we seem to now be on the same page. I believe your right
and we could go on for a long time about , factory, authorized, aftermarket and so on. In the end it is what it is.
After some 50 years of production, some years without a covertable, the Eldo line came to conclusion. As now represented, not withstanding the argument as to factory or authorized, with or without warranties, The 85 Eldo convertable,
low production numbers, was the last Eldo convertable offered.
That said, though arguable, in my opinion, is the only collectable car produced in the 80s and to limit the arguments of others as to other cars which may be collectable in the future, I wish to only limit that statement, to Eldorodos. PHEW
art #22010
I always liked the Seville, even with all the 4100 problems.
I think the styling still turns heads today and will in the
future. I own a very clean one and guess that it may be a collector car in the next 10-15 years.
But what do I know.
I believe the Seville, especially the 76-79 series. A nice clean factory 76 chocolate Brown with a coffee leather interior, coffee vinyl roof, moon roof and wire hubcaps without locks that were stolen every few weeks until Cadillac came out with socket locks. Next, a nice clean two-tone 79 Elegante fully loaded with real wire wheels and vogue tyres!
I believe both of these cars will be collectibels in the years to come. The Eldorado convertibles will lead the way, as do convertibles in general for all cars. I see them trading these days for upwards of $20K
Personally, I prefer the Eldorado for its clean and timeless styling. I do, as does Johnny, prefer the clean roofed versions that really show off its great proportions with out the break up of the roof line with the stainless top and vinyl roof.
The Seville with its baroque stylling will be its claim to fame, and it will be collectible, but which of the two will lead the pack. That remains to be seen.
I have an 85 Eldorado Coupe project car. It has a blown engine which I plan on replacing with an uprated 4.5 that I am building myself. It has the cabriolet roof that is really tattered. I an debating on either getting rid of it or replacing it. Problem is, in typical GM practice, the roof seams were unfinished which would require me to undertake bodywork and paint. It is a firemist paint which could prove difficult to match.
But, for the time being, the Eldorado seems to be surging in prices. I have watched prices increase in the last couple of years. A decent driver that could have been had a few years ago for about $2500 is heading upwards of $4-$5000 with top notch Biarittzs going for upwards of $10K. Sevilles seem to trail this by $1-$2000.
Mike
I had an 83 Eldorado with an HT4100. Or "HT forty-one blundred" as I call them. My car was on its second engine when I bought it used for $500. The engine was strong, but it idled crazy. After several WEEKS at the Caddy dealer, they finally told me to get it out of there because they had no parts or patience to fix it. Of course they did charge me $400 for the Idle sensor they replaced that didnt help.
I ended up selling the car on Ebay for $800. So I lost money on that deal. These 80s Cads with their obsolete engine computers and miles of vacuum lines that get brittle and leak are just too expensive to attemp restoration. This is really disappointing because I see so many really sharp looking HT4100 Cads forsale on Ebay all the time. But then I remember that those owners are all probably just dumping a problem child like I did.
David
Art, I just got done reading your post concerning Eldo "convertibles", and having finally mastered understanding Abbott and Costellos "Whos on first", I understand your thoughts, and mostly agree. What you have really brought out is the major problem in judging! In other words, "What exactly is correct"?
Myself I like seeing cars as close to possible as they looked when they rolled out of the factory, and equipped with factory options. Along these lines, factory produced "mud flaps" are correct!
A bit of understanding goes a long way with these engines. They really are not that complex, quite simple really when compared to late model electronics.
They can be made reliable if they are built using the latest upgrades and a basic understanding of the construction of the engine and its particular requirements.
A sound HT4100 is a very smooth and quiet engine, if a bit underpowered. They are also capable of some pretty impressive fuel economy numbers. A boon in these days of elevated fuel prices. Some simple tuning techniques can make them come alive and be pretty decent performers.
Im not afraid of these engines at all. You need to know what you are looking for. Never buy one sight unseen, and that goes for buying off Ebay.
Mike
Mike,
I think you should do an article for the Self-Starter about this engine, as it did comprise a great deal of production in the 80s, and the Eldo/Seville had their best design years with this engine. How about a buyers guide article, and then a "What to do if you are screwed with a bad engine" article. I think the fuel economy is very relevant.
Send the editor an outline and see if hes interested!
(Notice how I have no role in this article!!!)
Hi Mike,
Oh I rember driving these cars when they were only a year or two old. They were fine road cars. THats why I am horrified to find out that most Cadillac dealers dont want to work on them. Many parts are no longer available too. This makes fixing them tough for those of us who are not mechanics or own junkyards full of donor cars for parts.
Which is a real shame. My local junkyard is full of gorgeous HT4100 cars that have minor body issues. Some look like you could drive them away wash them and enter them in a car show. But then I see the HT4100 badge and know why they are there.
David
Andrew,
The thought had actually crossed my mind. I have picked up a lot of information on these engines over the last little while in addition to what I learned during those years working on them in the dealer.
Some of the most beautiful Cadillacs were produced with these engines, and it is the single biggest factor in their demise. With some education, they can be made reliable. They can be rebuilt using much improved components so that reliability is not the issue it once was.
I may sit down and compose something and see what the editors of the SS think of it. Thanks for the suggestion.
Mike
David,
These Eldorados and Sevilles with the Touring Suspension did indeed make fine road cars. I have driven many of them over the years and was always impressed at how they drove. Defineately not sports car firm, but firm enough to not be sloppy, and plenty comfortable. Great long distance tourers.
Junkyards here also have their fair share of examples, but they are pretty worn down suggesting to me that they have enjoyed a decent life. Perhaps conditions here are more favourable to their survival.
I can easily find parts for these engines. One of our local jobbers stocks all the stuff I need for the rebuild. I can still purchase most of all the electronics and sensors through the dealer or jobber easily. It seems to me the deale you took your car to just did not have the education and could not be bothered. They just used the parts thing as an excuse. To me, the wildly hunting idle was the result of a worn distributor drive gear. This is usually accompanied by a code 31, but not necessarily so. This was fairly common and the reason a revised distributor drive gear was released.
Mike
An HT4100 column!!!!
Code issue of the week
Parts upgrades
When is it a boat anchor
Makes a great gift!
I wonder how they would take to a column. Even on a semi-regular basis. That engine and its derivitives were involved in 13 years of production and accounted for well over a million examples. Ill bet there are still many of them on the road, especially the 4.5 and 4.9 versions.
There is the somewhat dormant HT4100 Chapter as well, along with its accompanying HT4100.com and the Yahoo based group called HT4100 Exchange (which is quite alive and doing well with 354 current members)
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/HT4100exchange/ Mike
I would agree. Art
Several years ago a friend gave my son a beautiful, low-mileage 1986 Fleetwood that had an engine gasket issue.
My son (at the time 18 yrs old) changed the gasket and had it running again in a weekends time.
Unfortunately, the car had other drivetrain issues that proved it to be unreliable for school commuting. So even for free the car was not a deal.
Andrew,
You would be right, they built a lot of those engines, I doubt very many of them are still on the road anymore, only the ones with low mileage.
They can be a great engine with the upgrade parts and a proper rebuild, Mikes area of expertise.
Porter (66 429 with 89K & 67 429 with 45K)
There was a great HT4100 article published in the Self Starter a year or two ago, by Derek Sherwood. He started the HT4100 chapter and still pops up on this board from time to time.
Sue,
Even for free! I love it! They are seldom free, especially when you add the reciepts! You are so correct!
Even if I subtracted the purchase price from my 75 Eldo convertible, Id still have almost as much into it than its worth!
David
A former club member sent me his old SS magazines, I did see the article.
I dont believe it specifically discussed rebuilding an HT 4100, which is what we are talking about here.
Mike rebuilt or repaired many of these engines while working at a Cadillac dealership years ago.
We all feel his pain,
Porter