I knew about this for awhile but couldn't say anything until the investigation was done.
Well, car #232 is a goner.
It sat for 3 decades untouched until a few months ago when somebody deceided to swipe the interior including the steering wheel and dash, all four complete doors, grill, trim, dual quad air cleaner etc...pretty much a shell now.
The thief sold them on eBay. If you bought '57 Eldorado Brougham parts off eBay in the last 3-4 months from California, they were more than likely off this car. They found a whole LOAD of classic car parts in addition to the Cadillac parts. If you are a savy eBayer, you can do a past sales search and you can find them. I know the detective who found the parts and caught the guy. They recovered one door and some trim. That's it.
If you have any questions or concerns about something you bought, contact:
Det. Ron Greene at Los Angeles Sherrif Dept. (626)350-4524 direct line. Good guy and easy to talk to.
I highly doubt anyone will return the parts but it's a nice thought. EBay might be helping recover the parts.
Here is the car from November of '06. In one peice.
There is still a good collection of Cadillacs in the old timers yard. 6 - 47 convertibles, 2 Pinna Ferra (sp?) '60 Eldorados.
Shane, tried to email you. It was rejected. Please contact me directly. Thanks, Bob CLC#96
Easy to find those auctions. Sold lots of hot parts...
http://myworld.ebay.com/onlyoemparts/ (http://myworld.ebay.com/onlyoemparts/)
Now it will be interesting to see what Ebay, who have a lead on who sold the parts, who bought them and what their contact information is, actually do about it. Don't you have a law in the US about profiting from the proceeds of crime (which is what Ebay have done in this case)?
Any old car nut's worst nightmare is waking up to find those impossible to replace parts gone to someone like Mr or Mrs "onlyoemparts". Wonder does that stand for "only other enthusiasts motor parts"?
John Tozer
If there is a paper trail that leads right to who bought they stolen parts, then the Police CAN go recover them. The buyers will have to take the guy to civil court to get their money back, but they are not entitled to keep the stolen parts even though they paid for them.
Yes, it will take longer to tracethe buyers thru email addresses, but with Ebays help it should go faster. The Police can get a judge to issue a warrant to get the info from Ebay.
Car parts or Picassos, it shouldn't make any difference. Stolen merchandise is stolen merchandise.
I believe the word you guys are looking for is Fence.
Stampie
The seller, (ebay member name) 'onlyoemparts 'can be located on ebay's sitemap. Click then go to 'find a member'.
A few messages from cadillac enthusiats may make him realise how unpopular his business practices are.
Additionally, click on this ebay member's 'feedback' page and you locate the 'buyers'. Messages may be sent to the buyer by concerned Cadillac La Salle Club members, stating that the items bought are the proceeds of a criminal act, and therefore do not actually belong to the buyer. This revelation to the buyer may help retrieve some parts from honest buyers.
Some buyers' ebay member's names who purchased:
aurelie-louise (NY)
metacomp (NY)
azblink (AZ)
t-alfa (Denmark)
ellioti123 (Canada)
thomasb0726 (USA)
kustom52 (WI)
maglieri99 (Australia)
tulipps4ubzex (AZ)
dream_cars_co_uk (UK)
jlg177 (NY)
kenneth5509 (USA)
Hope some of the parts acn be retrieved and the buyers are indeed enthusiasts who have a conscience.
Paul Zanetti
Australia
I recognize at least one of the buyers names as a regular here.
While it is true that a very rare car has be destroyed maliciously. :o The chances of recovering ALL of the parts from this car are very slim.
Why would you want to prosecute the unwary buyers of these parts, they might have needed to complete a long time restoration of their own cars? ???
If this car sat for 30 years with no one paying it any attention, why not utilize what it has to give? Now all of a sudden you're ready to hang the buyers and try to force them to give up what they bought, and go through a lengthy battle to recover the money spent. Which is also very slim.
Prosecute the seller for dealing in stolen merchandise.
#232 will never be complete again with it's original items. A car of it's rarity should have been stored in a more secure location. Not out in the open to just dissolve into the ground.
Just my .02 cents worth.
Fins
Sec/Tres MCLC
Big Fins, I couldn't agree with you more. I seen it dozens of times in person & read it many times in Old Cars Weekly. It's always the same situation. Reclusive, unfriendly usually older guy, bought the cars years ago when they were cheap used cars. Where does he store them? OUTSIDE, of course! Does he ever do anything with them? OF COURSE NOT! The vandels & thieves have a field day. When do they get sold? By the people handling the estate, if they're smart enough not to junk them. Been there too many times, Bob
"Hell mister! You weren't usin' that money that's just been lyin' around in your account for years and years. You're just gunna die and leave it behind so I'll take it!"
Are you guys for real??????
John Tozer
??? ??? It may be extremely frustrating that these unfriendly old guys don't want to part with there treasures , but how can that possibly make it right for some scumbag to profit from their theft .
Lance
Quote from: Lance on June 02, 2007, 03:56:30 AM
??? ??? It may be extremely frustrating that these unfriendly old guys don't want to part with there treasures , but how can that possibly make it right for some scumbag to profit from their theft .
Lance
Lance and John,
I never said it was right that the car was stripped and profited off of. I was saying that if this car was really a rare and valued treasure, it should have been stored as such. You are not going to change the way society thinks.
If I were to leave my '59 outside overnight, when I woke up half of it would have been stolen, if not snatched up by a tow truck in the middle of the night.
And if I want to leave my money in the bank and die with it there, that's my business. Not for you to come along and take it. But it is being held securely, or so you might think. But leaving a rare car out to rot in the weather is just inviting it to be be stolen. This is 2007 folks, not 1950 anymore. Think about it.
Why would you want to prosecute the unwary buyers of these parts, they might have needed to complete a long time restoration of their own cars?
Nobody said prosecute the buyers. Prosecute the seller. But the buyers should return the parts to the rightful owner. Just because you need them for your car shouldn't relieve your conscience.
Yes there are rare cars sitting that should be restored. But maybe that guy spotted this car sitting somewhere waiting to be junked? He may have bought it and kept it on his property to prevent it from going to the scrapyard. Maybe he didn't have the funds to do a restoration right away?
I see a few nice Cadillacs in my area that are used as daily drivers and parked outside. I cringe and think : Damn I wish they'd park that car out front forsale so hopefully a Cadillac buff like myself car save it and give it a second life as a pampered car. But should I sneek onto their property and hotwire the car to steal it and bring it home?
I don't think so.
If you bought the stolen parts, do the right thing and turn them over to the Police. Then go after Paypal or whoever you used to get your money back.
Hi everyone
I did not know that it was stolen parts I was bidding on at e-bay - I wont pay for these parts-thanks for the warning.
By the way is there any who has a front lower bumper and the rear corners for a 1957 coupe de ville.
Have a nice summer everyone
t-alfa
Certainly no bidders knew or suspected stolen parts. I have not heard any OFFICIAL conformation on this situation, I will however, set aside the few items I purchased until OFFICIAL conformation is heard (from USA authorities). I have just emailed the seller for his explanation.
Quote from: wm link on June 05, 2007, 02:18:47 PM
Certainly no bidders knew or suspected stolen parts. I have not heard any OFFICIAL conformation on this situation, I will however, set aside the few items I purchased until OFFICIAL conformation is heard (from USA authorities). I have just emailed the seller for his explanation.
G'day wm link,
I am not sure what your legislation is on this issue, but down here, anything that was purchased that had been stolen, even though the buyer wasn't aware of it being stolen, remains the property of the original legal owner.
I do hope that the matter can be resolved, and in a manner that is fair to all, except the perpetrator of the crime.
Bruce. >:D
I have been thinking about this for a while now and have decided to post. There seems to be a lot of amateur detectives among our ranks who also enjoy Cadillac’s.
The first thing to remember is; we have Shane’s original posting making the claim that a person’s property has been stolen and sold over ebay piece by piece. So far, I’ve seen nothing to confirm that this is the case.
If it is true, I’m sure there will be some notification to the buyers of these parts and what happens next is anyone's best guess.
Now it seems odd that a stolen car and the subsequent parting out of it were done over a 4-month period without any issue. It was done in broad daylight and in plain view of anyone on ebay. I doubt the police required that much time to figure this out if that was what was truly going on. If it were, then why continue to expose honest people to something the police know to be wrong over that amount of time? No entrapment here. Just shut him down by arresting him.
Also, if this activity were illegal and ebay found out about it, ebay would shut him down immediately and remove his account and mark it as such. So far his account is in good standing.
This episode is full of victims if it turns out to true. The first is the original owner, hopefully he as insurance to mitigate the loss of the car. A car of this value should be insured. The second are all the people who purchased parts for their use who could be out the parts and the expense to acquire them. I wonder how these parts would be returned. My opinion would be they are FOB my garage and any and all return costs are someone else’s or they stay where they are.
Anyone who has every purchased a used part could be in this position, and it is not very much fun. All of these parts are very expensive, so giving them up will require more than one person’s claim that they were obtained through theft. That’s why the legal system is there and I’m sure it will work.
David King
Quote from: kz78hy on June 05, 2007, 09:41:43 PM
I have been thinking about this for a while now and have decided to post. There seems to be a lot of amateur detectives among our ranks who also enjoy Cadillac’s.
The first thing to remember is; we have Shane’s original posting making the claim that a person’s property has been stolen and sold over ebay piece by piece. So far, I’ve seen nothing to confirm that this is the case.
If it is true, I’m sure there will be some notification to the buyers of these parts and what happens next is anyone's best guess.
Now it seems odd that a stolen car and the subsequent parting out of it were done over a 4-month period without any issue. It was done in broad daylight and in plain view of anyone on ebay. I doubt the police required that much time to figure this out if that was what was truly going on. If it were, then why continue to expose honest people to something the police know to be wrong over that amount of time? No entrapment here. Just shut him down by arresting him.
Also, if this activity were illegal and ebay found out about it, ebay would shut him down immediately and remove his account and mark it as such. So far his account is in good standing.
This episode is full of victims if it turns out to true. The first is the original owner, hopefully he as insurance to mitigate the loss of the car. A car of this value should be insured. The second are all the people who purchased parts for their use who could be out the parts and the expense to acquire them. I wonder how these parts would be returned. My opinion would be they are FOB my garage and any and all return costs are someone else’s or they stay where they are.
Anyone who has every purchased a used part could be in this position, and it is not very much fun. All of these parts are very expensive, so giving them up will require more than one person’s claim that they were obtained through theft. That’s why the legal system is there and I’m sure it will work.
David King
Interesting attitude to take.
I'll just touch on few of your points.
First call Det. Greene. Have doubts? He'll gladly fill you in on all your doubts. When and if you do, ask him about the other classic cars they caught him with. From what I understand a few already have called to confirm.
Second, it wasn't over a 4 month time frame. Parted out in 2 nights on a property surround by trees, a locked and solid fence. Police found out, took 3 weeks to put it together and busted him. Not easy putting stolen parts with no numbers to a shell of a car. They need proof other than somebody pointing it out. And guess what happened when they did catch him? He CONFESSED to the entire thing. Stealing & parting it out, eBay sales, etc...
3 weeks start to finish. That damn quick for the police.
And have you ever tried to deal with eBay on any issue? Worse than the goverment. Takes alittle time. How eBay plans to deal with it remain to be seen but they are working on it. PayPal has set their system up for just such an instance. We'll see...
Third, an insured project car? You've got to be kidding me?
Think that Eldorado in the orange grove from a few weeks ago is insured?
Are all your or your friends project cars insured? Was that Dueseberg Leno bought out of NYC was insured for the 60-70 years it sat the garage? I think not.
This is a LOCKED storage yard with a solid 8' fence. Think of how many car people keep their cars in the same type of situation. Insured or not, doesn't make it right.
Fourth and final, your FOB comment makes me wonder. That is a really poor attitude.
Be a different story if it was your stuff that got stolen and was sold on eBay. But then your project cars are insured right? Try and get your insurnace company to pay out on a project car. HA! Good luck! Enough trouble getting them to pay on a new car.
Old guy or not, cranky or not, NOBODY has the right just take what they want. I don't care if he paints it pink, fills with flowers and it rots into the ground, it's his to do so with. A shame but it's his to do so.
Maybe it was his retirement fund, who knows, but a locked fence means stay out. End of story.
True there are victims on both sides but not offering to return knownly stolen parts is just as bad taking them in the first place.
Sue the thief, wait for restitution, etc. There are ways of recovering your lost money. That is the legal way. Not just keeping them.
You are forgetting the original victim.
It seems to me you are trying to justify the missing parts as tough luck.
And it's not my claim, it's the LA County auto theft task force claim. Seeing you are the one with so many doubts, calling Det. Greene would be your best bet.
His number is 626-350-4524. His direct line at the station.
Shane,
I think your post pretty well says it all! Except.....
I have no doubt that a lot of the comments that have been made here about "the cranky old guy..." etc. could have been made about the person that I bought my '37 off. In the eyes of many of the so called experts in this hobby (and what other hobby has got as many of THEM as old car collecting???) it was a "basket case" and didn't warrant a second look, let alone restoration. Well, I now know that there are probably two of them left in the world and I, for one, am GRATEFUL to the party that shut it up in an old shed for years until I could come along and buy it off him.
One of these days when it is back on the road in all its finery, I hope lots of others will be grateful too.
John Tozer
I can attest to the difficulty in trying to contact Ebay directly with a dispute. Their automated system of emails is extremely frustrating at best. Replies take forever and often by a new person that is not familiar with the previous contact. They've made it virtually impossible to interact with a live person. It is just as bad as trying to contact someone at your VISA or Mastercard company. Good luck!
But if anyone thinks this whole story is fabricated, I'd recommend contacting that detective thru the Police Departments MAIN number. This way you know he works there, and not just some guy answering his phone at home claiming in is his desk number.
As a victim here, I am going to allow for the due legal process in this unfortunate situation, the detective will probably contact each and every buyer in due time. Certainly, and goes without saying that this was tragic to the owner of the car...it was HIS car and ONLY he had every right to do/restore/ customize/store/insure...or let it rot as only HE pleased. We all have been ripped off at some time, no one claims that it feels good. As to soapbox claims here that the unsuspecting buyers can recover their money...yeah right. What are they going to do... PAY and fly to Calif several times and PAY more to process a small claims case against someone that has to steal auto parts to make ends meet? Ok, great you win your case...Think you are EVER going to actually collect? I'm still waiting some 20yrs later to collect from a small claims case against an unemployed katchina doll maker that crashed into my 48 Cadillac! I even tried for Katchina dolls! Think ebay is going to refund your money? How much of a fuzzy feeling do you think the (again UNSUSPECTING) buyers are going to have by ADDING to their loss's (and they paid TOP dollar for this stuff) by packing and paying the return freight back...are they also expected to pay freight insurance too? I am fortunate that my purchases were small, not needed for my car and not of great distance. The reality here is that this is one sadly presumed case that might result in a RARE but well deserved conviction. To those grandstanding here... If you buy on ebay the painful odds are you will unknowingly purchase or have already purchased a stolen something, a bootleg Cadillac DVD maybe, or an unlicensed Cadillac reproduction part ...Nuff said
John, you wouldn't be as happy if you didn't say the words "he SOLD me the car". SOLD is the key word. Imagine the scenerio that you've been after this guy for 5,10,15 or 20 years & he STILL won't sell! And the car is rotting into the ground, & there's nothing you can do. Frustrating, isn't it? That's my point. You mentioned money in a previous post. . His money in the bank is just money. Money is money,it's all the same. The rare car rotting away is not the same. Once it's gone, it's gone forever. BTW, what is the rare car you obtained from him? Bob
The June 7th issue od OLD CARS WEEKLY has a short story on the thefts.
Apparently the same guy stole a Model A Duesenberg Millspaugh & Irish touring car from the guy with the Cadillac Eldorado Brougham.
He tried parting out the Duesenberg on Ebay too. Police recovered the Duesey and the parts, but said the Eldo parts did get sold. Charges are pending in Los Angeles county.
It sounds like the LA county Sheriff has his hands full ???with much more important things to taxpayers than mere theft...like dealing with Paris! ;D
I am with Shane on this one. Theft is theft.
Twisting, or contriving the scenerio to justify taking something that does not belong to you and then selling it for profit is condoning dishonesty. It astounds me that there are enthusiasts on this board that will argue the justification of theft.
Paul Zanetti
AUSTRALIA
Quote from: DavidinHartford on June 08, 2007, 06:40:25 AM
The June 7th issue od OLD CARS WEEKLY has a short story on the thefts.
Apparently the same guy stole a Model A Duesenberg Millspaugh & Irish touring car from the guy with the Cadillac Eldorado Brougham.
He tried parting out the Duesenberg on Ebay too. Police recovered the Duesey and the parts, but said the Eldo parts did get sold. Charges are pending in Los Angeles county.
well would you look at that...Is the part when I get to say I told you so? :D
At the risk of offending people I would like to make an observation. I’ve seen a lot of people commenting on this situation and it appears that not many of them are actually involved or have all the facts. Everyone seems to know what others should be doing. As to those people urging others to do the “right thing†maybe those people should give their homes back to the Native Americans since it is on stolen land. The point is that this forum is for the enjoyment of the hobby and not to embarrass or shame fellow enthusiasts in to doing what your version of right is. Let the legal system handle it.
Quote from: Old car Mike on June 08, 2007, 11:20:36 PM
At the risk of offending people I would like to make an observation. I’ve seen a lot of people commenting on this situation and it appears that not many of them are actually involved or have all the facts. Everyone seems to know what others should be doing. As to those people urging others to do the “right thing†maybe those people should give their homes back to the Native Americans since it is on stolen land. The point is that this forum is for the enjoyment of the hobby and not to embarrass or shame fellow enthusiasts in to doing what your version of right is. Let the legal system handle it.
No, sorry, but you are wrong 'Old Car Mike'.
You seem to have changed the rules of this forum.
It is not as you have unilaterally decided, "....this forum is for the enjoyment of the hobby and not to embarrass or shame fellow enthusiasts in to doing what your version of right is....."
If you actually read the rules of the forum, it says.
"This Message Forum is to be used only to advance the purposes of the Cadillac & LaSalle Club, which are to develop, publish and exchange information pertaining to Cadillacs and LaSalles, to encourage the maintenance, preservation and restoration of Cadillacs and LaSalles, and to promote social fellowship among Club members."
And that is what those people who are concerned about the theft of parts from a rare Cadillac Eldorado Brougham are doing.
If one or others are involved in theft are embarassed, or the proceeds from theft and if they are embarrassed then there may be a reason they are embarrassed. It is not up to 'Old Car Mike' to then 'embarrass' honest and concerned Cadillac enthusiasts out of holding a view.
Paul Zanetti
Australia
Quote from: Zed on June 08, 2007, 11:34:31 PM
Quote from: Old car Mike on June 08, 2007, 11:20:36 PM
At the risk of offending people I would like to make an observation. I’ve seen a lot of people commenting on this situation and it appears that not many of them are actually involved or have all the facts. Everyone seems to know what others should be doing. As to those people urging others to do the “right thing†maybe those people should give their homes back to the Native Americans since it is on stolen land. The point is that this forum is for the enjoyment of the hobby and not to embarrass or shame fellow enthusiasts in to doing what your version of right is. Let the legal system handle it.
No, sorry, but you are wrong 'Old Car Mike'.
You seem to have changed the rules of this forum.
It is not as you have unilaterally decided, "....this forum is for the enjoyment of the hobby and not to embarrass or shame fellow enthusiasts in to doing what your version of right is....."
If you actually read the rules of the forum, it says.
"This Message Forum is to be used only to advance the purposes of the Cadillac & LaSalle Club, which are to develop, publish and exchange information pertaining to Cadillacs and LaSalles, to encourage the maintenance, preservation and restoration of Cadillacs and LaSalles, and to promote social fellowship among Club members."
And that is what those people who are concerned about the theft of parts from a rare Cadillac Eldorado Brougham are doing.
If one or others are involved in theft are embarassed, or the proceeds from theft and if they are embarrassed then there may be a reason they are embarrassed. It is not up to 'Old Car Mike' to then 'embarrass' honest and concerned Cadillac enthusiasts out of holding a view.
Paul Zanetti
Australia
SO I take it you will be giving your home back to the Aborigines
Quote from: Old car Mike on June 08, 2007, 11:53:29 PM
SO I take it you will be giving your home back to the Aborigines
Let's not get Political here, but the Aborigines want Land Rights, but they also want everything that the Civilised Soriety brought to them as well.
They say that they want to live Traditionally, and carry on Traditional stuff, but refuse to do it without the TV, Alcohol and double the unemployment benefits.
The true Aboriginees that are left to themselves are good people.
Bruce. >:D
Victorian Native and other stuff
Quote from: Old car Mike on June 08, 2007, 11:53:29 PM
Quote from: Zed on June 08, 2007, 11:34:31 PM
Quote from: Old car Mike on June 08, 2007, 11:20:36 PM
At the risk of offending people I would like to make an observation. I’ve seen a lot of people commenting on this situation and it appears that not many of them are actually involved or have all the facts. Everyone seems to know what others should be doing. As to those people urging others to do the “right thing†maybe those people should give their homes back to the Native Americans since it is on stolen land. The point is that this forum is for the enjoyment of the hobby and not to embarrass or shame fellow enthusiasts in to doing what your version of right is. Let the legal system handle it.
No, sorry, but you are wrong 'Old Car Mike'.
You seem to have changed the rules of this forum.
It is not as you have unilaterally decided, "....this forum is for the enjoyment of the hobby and not to embarrass or shame fellow enthusiasts in to doing what your version of right is....."
If you actually read the rules of the forum, it says.
"This Message Forum is to be used only to advance the purposes of the Cadillac & LaSalle Club, which are to develop, publish and exchange information pertaining to Cadillacs and LaSalles, to encourage the maintenance, preservation and restoration of Cadillacs and LaSalles, and to promote social fellowship among Club members."
And that is what those people who are concerned about the theft of parts from a rare Cadillac Eldorado Brougham are doing.
If one or others are involved in theft are embarassed, or the proceeds from theft and if they are embarrassed then there may be a reason they are embarrassed. It is not up to 'Old Car Mike' to then 'embarrass' honest and concerned Cadillac enthusiasts out of holding a view.
Paul Zanetti
Australia
SO I take it you will be giving your home back to the Aborigines
Okay, I admit I have missed the point here, 'Old Car Mike'.
I assume you are alleging or inferring I stole my home from an aborigine, by stating I should 'give my home back to the aborigines'. Correct me if I have misinterpreted your statement. Because as it stands, and the way I read it, you are accusing me of theft.
In which case, I can assure you I paid for my home fair and square, honestly.
But let's stick to the point, 'Old Car Mike'.
What has (your untrue inferrence of) me stealing my home got to do with the theft of the rare Eldorado Brougham car parts anyway? I thought that was the point of this forum discussion.
Personal slurs, insinuations or invented accusations, alleging that someone has stolen a home from someone else is not only defamatory, but has no place on this Cadillac forum, and goes against your own earlier moral standing quoted below:
The point is that this forum is for the enjoyment of the hobby and not to embarrass or shame fellow enthusiasts in to doing what your version of right is.
I can't see how inferring that someone has stolen a house from an aborigine, has anything to do with the 'enjoyment of the hobby' (your words) and is not aimed at embarrassing or shaming a fellow enthusiast, to doing what your version of right is (your words).
By the way, you will note that I am transparent and place my full name and place of residence. But you choose to hide behind a forum 'nick name'.
Will you have the courage of your convictions and disclose who you are?
Bets regards from Australia.
Paul Zanetti
Australia
Quote from: Old car Mike on June 08, 2007, 11:20:36 PM
As to those people urging others to do the “right thing†maybe those people should give their homes back to the Native Americans since it is on stolen land.
The Native Americans in my State (Connecticut) now live in mansions and drive Mercedes thanks to the money that is POURING in at Foxwoods and Mohegan Sun Casinos that they own.
They are getting the last laugh now. :)
Quote from: Old car Mike on June 08, 2007, 11:20:36 PM
At the risk of offending people I would like to make an observation. I’ve seen a lot of people commenting on this situation and it appears that not many of them are actually involved or have all the facts. Everyone seems to know what others should be doing. As to those people urging others to do the “right thing†maybe those people should give their homes back to the Native Americans since it is on stolen land. The point is that this forum is for the enjoyment of the hobby and not to embarrass or shame fellow enthusiasts in to doing what your version of right is. Let the legal system handle it.
All the facts? Pretty much cut and dry the way I see it. Parts stolen, said parts sold, guy gets arrested. How many more facts do you need?
I doubt any of the stolen parts will be returned because the "right thing" as you refer to it is of little concern to those who bought it. They got victimized as well. People will think & act they see fit, right or wrong.
Some people also still think the world is flat and the moon landing was a hoax as well.
I think this entire discussion is over your head. This has gone from a simple warning about stolen stuff and a dummy getting caught to entirely different moral discussion. It was never nor did it become a "shame on you" post.
Try this: Think of society on a whole.
What separates "us" from "them"? A sense of right and wrong. I see no grey area here. My opinion? Return the stuff and file charges against the person who sold them to you.
THAT'S the legal way. Not keep it and wait for the cops and the first victim to prove it all over again. Remember that whole "two wrongs don't make a right" thing? Everyone seems to like to make the rules that fit whatever the situation dictates in their favor. Case in point, the thief. He made up his own rules as he deemed fit. Look what he got.
But opinions are like bellybuttons. Everybody has one. However, I would really like to hear your opinion Mike.
What would
you do if you had been the one who bought stolen goods?
Either way, on the grand scale of things, there is one less thief out there to steal mine and
YOUR stuff. We are car folks and we are supposed to stick together yet here we are divided on a very simple subject. Personally, I know what I would do but that's me. I like think I'm changing the world I live in for the good one step at a time. It'll never happen, but at least I try.
So in closing, maybe the best thing to do is just tip your hat & say a quiet thank you to the good citizen who turned in the guy and to the police for doing their jobs and as you lay down to sleep tonight, take comfort in the fact if you become a victim of crime that maybe somebody will step up & help you.
And as for the naive Native American statement, I'm all for it but let's start with your house.
Shane,
Rather than quote your post directly above this one and take up more room, let me just say, HEAR, HEAR!
Geoff N.
quote Shan..."THAT'S the legal way. Not keep it and wait for the cops and the first victim to prove it all over again". What law school did you graduate from? Can you please clarify where the bidders have done ANYTHING illegal to this point until notice from proper authorities? The legal system may not work fast enough for you but that is the" legal way". Casting stones and morality at the bidders at this stage is a bit premature. Nearly all of the American west was more recently taken (yes stolen) from Mexico by the USA in 1847 because Mexico refused several offers to sell it...so 'doing the right thing' should include giving it back...or is that too much of a good thing?
Quote from: Wm Link on June 09, 2007, 12:41:01 PM
quote Shan..."THAT'S the legal way. Not keep it and wait for the cops and the first victim to prove it all over again". What law school did you graduate from? Can you please clarify where the bidders have done ANYTHING illegal to this point until notice from proper authorities? The legal system may not work fast enough for you but that is the" legal way". Casting stones and morality at the bidders at this stage is a bit premature. Nearly all of the American west was more recently taken (yes stolen) from Mexico by the USA in 1847 because Mexico refused several offers to sell it...so 'doing the right thing' should include giving it back...or is that too much of a good thing?
What Shane is saying is there is 'legal' and there is 'moral'. Surely that doesn't need to spelled out?
People with morals don't need to have the cops knocking on the door before they do the right thing. It's second nature.
Some of the buyers have put their hands up on this website. Yes, they too were unwitting victims. Other buyers, I suspect may be watching this forum to see what happens. And if they are not contacted by the authorities they may (will?) keep the parts. Moral versus legal.
Some people go through life doing what they believe is right. Others go through life doing what they think they can get away with. Sometimes those people have their moral code enforced through a legal system. Often a situation will present itself, and expose the true colour(s) of some people. Often it gest away from the money, and is about the integrity of the individual. Often the loss is more than monetary.
It doesn't get away from the fact that theft is still theft.
As for this red herring about giving away homes that folk have paid for honestly, to people who have no entitlement over them....well, those comments speak for themselves.
Shane and I have stepped up to this exchange using our actual names. Over to you 'Old Car Mike' and 'Wm link'.
Paul Zanetti
Australia
It was the PREACHING of morality... cast at us PREMATURLY from those in glass houses how we got the red herring. Everyone that got the parts paid for them honestly...from people that had no(suspected) entitlement over them! "Shane" is an actual name but "Mike" is not? Sorry, I do not see the difference? In morality "Stealing is Stealing" be it Cadillacs...their parts or the land they came from...history not morality or legality dictates who (one with the biggest guns) wins. Is there a statute of limitations on the 'morality' of stealing? Direct your frustrations and morality to where it belongs, the suspected theif...not the bidders....
Mr Link,
I think the soapbox you are perched on has made you lightheaded.
Did you call Old Car Weekly to see if they made the entire thing up?
My law knowledge has nothing to do with my comment. Glass houses indeed!
Why do you keep returning to land grab issues? Go the Middle East and solve the land problems if feel it is such a calling. I think they immediate openings.
Cadillac parts and historic land grabs aren't one in the same. Give me a break.
Where did I say any bidder had done anything illegal? Nowhere that I see. Legal system works fast enough for me. I did not claim it didn't. I merely said it would be best,in MY opinion, as in what would I do, to return before asked to.
However, seeing you brought the law up, let's have a look. Receiving stolen property
Section 496 of California penal code.
caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cacodes/pen/484-502.9.html
For something more in layman's terms, try this on:
"As the trend from front-yard garage sales to internet-based auction sites continues, today's consumers are finding more and more obscure and unique items online. What they may not know, however, is that these items can also sometimes be stolen goods.
The newly formed propensity to go online and purchase hard-to-find items at bargain prices is not only an opportunity for budding entrepreneurs to market their goods, but also a chance for some to purge their stolen property. The complexities of this new phenomenon can thus bring a variety of legal questions regarding ownership and responsibility to light.
When stolen property is purchased and law enforcement personnel conclude their investigation at your doorstop, not only can the police immediately seize the goods that were paid for, but you may also be charged with a criminal offense"
But Mr. Link is the part aimed at your argument:
"In an attempt to stop trafficking and fencing operations, buying stolen property in itself has been defined as a criminal offense. Receiving, concealing, possessing, buying or transferring are usually the acts associated with crimes of fencing (acting as a middleman) or trafficking in stolen goods. What complicates the legal situation even further is the fact that the police cannot always determine whether one buyer is part of the illegal operation or just an innocent buyer. Consequently, the laws in this area tend to be quite strict and usually favor the original owner/victim.
"
source:
Receiving Stolen Property: “Buying Property From Strangers or Unknown Sources: What You Don’t Know Definitely Can Hurt Youâ€
10/14/2005 â€" By Lisa G. Lewis, Associate Director of Attorneys, and Natalie Banach
for further reading
cochranfirm.com/resource/article_detail.asp?id=7&article=25
I think there is no need to go any further with this. I made my point.
Hear hear, Shane.
No glass house here, Mr WM Link (real name?). All bricks and mortar paid for fairly and legally (note the word 'legal'.)
As for the aborigines. They are decsendants of New Guinea natives, who themselves migrated south and displaced the previous tribes, and no doubt did those tribes before them, and so on....
Aborigines are primarily a nomadic people who moved from land to land following the food. There were no claims over land until it had commercial 'value'. That is, after it was settled and developed by the next tribe, the westerners. And let's not even go into the disproportionate billions of dollars pumped into aboriginal housing and benefits by the Australian taxpayers (no such disproportionate benefits enjoyed by any other race, religion or group especially magnified considering aborigines make up 1% of the population), mostly squandered by the recipients. The body, ATSIC (look it up) set up for the benefit of the aborigines, and governed by aborigines was riddled with corruption and dysfunction, with directors living millionaire lifestyles while their people continued to live in squalour. Eventually ATSIC was disolved as a failure.
God helps those who help themselves.
Good will has always been directed by Australians to the aborigines, but it seems they are generally unwilling or unable to modernise.
As for me, I am a descendant of Italian immigrants who worked hard and paid for their house, as did I. There were no aborigines on my land when I bought it, and there has been no claim ever made or lodged on my property. So how does the suggestion of giving my house back to the aborigines relate to somebody else stealing rare car parts?
Let's not even talk about the history of Europe and the UK......
Paul Zanetti
Australia
Great original post, granted a little late after 3-4 MONTHS to mitigate any damage. Where was your morality months ago when you stated that YOU KNEW these parts from #232 were being offered for sale on ebay??? I guess I missed that post here. I otherwise commend your points on general morality so long as, you have established, it does not involve land. At this point... All this frustration is misdirected prematurely before enforcement apparently has had a chance to conclude their investigation. I am confident that the detective can handle the investigation. All those that unknowingly purchased any questionable parts will be contacted and will surrender them, eat the loss, without further preachings of morality as to how you would do things and when.
:D Thank you. Can we get back to our normal discussions about Cadillacs and LaSalles now?
Fred
There wasn't a post 3-4 months ago because I didn't know 3-4 months ago. His past eBay sales dictated the timeframe. I only found out a fews weeks ago about the investigation. Hence the post. Go read it again.
And South_Paw, I'll add more info if I get any.
Back to Cadillacs
Bob,
I didn't realise you wanted the whole story or that it was particularly relevant but here goes....
The guy I bought my 1937 7513 (one of 15 built worldwide - 6 of which came to Australia CKD and 2 of which seem to now exist) was a famous hoarder - so much so that he had, at the peak, 160 cars!
Yes he was a bit of a nutter (anyone that collects 160 cars has got a problem of SOME dimensions) and, no, he never had the smallest chance of ever doing anything with them. Yes, some of them, including a '36 75 parts car that will help me get my '37 back on the road one day, were left outside and succumbed to a bush fire that left them rusted hulks.
But the right hand drive chassis, steering box and front end were still fine as was the roof that I require for my car.
He could have succumbed to pressure from the local Council driven by the local "do gooder" environmental lobby that wanted to crush them all as "eyesores" but he didn't.
....and I still say I have something to be grateful to him for.
....and had I stolen the car or the '36 parts car I believe I would have done the wrong thing.
Regards,
John Tozer