96 vs. 97 Northstar any difference?

[Chris Short CLC 18814]

Hi,
   I was hopeing that there might be somebody out there that might know the answer to this..  I'm replacing the head gaskets in my 96 Eldo.. I don't have a shop manual for a 96 but I do have a GM shop manual for a 97 Eldo..  Would anybody know for sure if they are different or the same?  As torque values go...  I'm pretty sure the the 93-99 northstars are the same but not sure..

Thanks,
Chris Short

[TJ Hopland]

Im not sure when the changes are or were but you do want to be sure you are using the correct values and procedures.  I do know that you stand a good chance of pulling the threads out with the head bolts.  I dont know anyone that has ever got them changed without at least one bolt being a problem.  People that work on more than one of those own their own timesert thread repair kit made specially for those motors.  There are several kits depending on the year and how far apart you plan to take the motor.  With the kit repairs are quite easy assuming you can access the area you are working on which can be a trick with the motor in the car.  Most people I know pull the motor for any type of head gasket problem on a cadillac motor made after 82 because of the head bolt issue.  IIRC there are some things on the front (or maybe you call it side in a transverse setup) that are very difficult to get to in the car that have to be removed to get the timing chains off (and back in time) to remove the head(s).   Its been several years since I took one apart myself so I could be remembering wrong.  The last one I helped a guy with was out of the car.

[harvey b]

Hello Chris,if i was doing this car,i would definetly remove the motor and tranny,it is quite easy to remove if you have a hoist.i had a 96 STS that needed a motor,my son in law,who is a mechanic did it for me.i bought another car for parts with a good engine and he swapped it for me,you remove the whole front cradle with the motor and tranny and even the front struts too,it will come out in one big peice,you lift the car off of the assembly.it is nearly impossible to remove just the motor as some of the bolts are very hard to see let alone get a wrench on.and as always there will be a exhaust stud that will snap off or a bolt that is stripped.so definetly plan to remove the whole thing,it will be worth it in the long run.  thanks Harvey Bowness

[Rusty Shepherd CLC 6397]

I think you're correct in believing that the '93-'99 Northstar engines are essentially the same; the first major redesign came with the 2000 model year.  However, as with virtually any engine from any manufacturer, small running changes/updates/improvements are made regularly, often yearly, and sometimes within the same model year, so I'd second the advice of TJ H and get the manual/specs for the '96 cars. I'd also recommend checking technical service bulletins concerning head gaskets for your car.

[Chris Short CLC 18814]

Hi,
    Well I'm going to find a 96 manual just to be sure..  You guys are right..  Also I don't have a car hoist.  My shop only has 11 foot ceilings in it so I can't get a hoist in it so I have to go and build a room off my shop just for that..  When I baught this place the shop was already built..  I don't know what they were thinking to build a shop with out enough clearance for a hoist..  But anyway the 97 manual lists a way to get the engine out while leaving the tranny in, and the car on the floor.  I'm doing this in spare time only and so far I've gotten pretty deep in removing everything attached to the engine.  But I know it would be impossible to put new head gaskets in it while leaveing the engine in the car..  I can see that'll never work.  I'd really like to take the engine out with the tranny and do it that way.. But I can't think of a way to do that with out a car hoist and a proper transmition jack to lower all that.. So I'm stuck doing it the hard way..
   Rusty I think your right about the design change in 2000.  I saw a 2000 once and one thing I noticed was that the water pump and crossflow manifold looked alot differnt..  That entire area did..

Thanks..
Chris Short
ps..  Heres the car I'm workin on..

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

Don't you just love these sideways engines.

Sure weren't designed for ease in maintenance.

Bruce.

[TJ Hopland]

Not that it will help much with getting the drivetrain out of your current project but for a small shop this is what I bought for a lift.  My garage is only got a 6 foot clearance so for most cars I have to pull it outside.  Unless all you ever do is brake and tire work the thing works good.  I have had mine for a year and am happy with it.  Mine is the HD model so I can extend the ramps another 3' or so which is supposed to fit an extended cab full box truck.  They are supposed to be excellent for detailing work.

Here is a shot without the back lifted



Here is a shot with it lifted. The black things you see are the 'bridges' used if you need to take the wheels off.



Here is a shot where you can see the rear legs and the optional dollies and all the space I have (even with that tiny car!)



I dont work for them, I just think they have a good product.
http://www.kwiklift.com/Options.htm

[Chris Short CLC 18814]

Hi,
   TJH thats a neat set up there...  I like the Coupe DeVille also..  I've always had a soft spot for those late 70s Coupes..  I didn't know it was possible to cram duel exhaust under one of those!!    I knew a guy that had one once..  Thing was beautiful..  We went camping one summer and he braught his Coupe DeVille..  I was sitting at the camp site and he slowly drove by me..  The thing was almost completely silent at idle.  All you could hear was the air conditioning blower blowing, and a very quiet engine rumble.  If I remember right the blower was louder than the engine..  It was mid summer so he had the AC at full blast..

Chris Short

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

Not that it will help much with getting the drivetrain out of your current project but for a small shop this is what I bought for a lift.  My garage is only got a 6 foot clearance so for most cars I have to pull it outside.  Unless all you ever do is brake and tire work the thing works good.  I have had mine for a year and am happy with it.  Mine is the HD model so I can extend the ramps another 3' or so which is supposed to fit an extended cab full box truck.  They are supposed to be excellent for detailing work.   

I like the way it comes to pieces for stowing when not in use.

I too have the same problem with height restrictions.  Thought of digging a pit, but after digging out under the house for the Garage I have now, I decided that I had dug enough.

Bruce.

[TJ Hopland]

When not in use I just lay it flat and park on it.   As long as you dont have to lift both ends of the ramps off the ground at the same time it not too bad.  Its not light by any stretch but you can lift it enough to get the the stands under the front.  Im working on some ideas for ways to make it easier to get the stands under it again but have not put a lot of time into it yet.  I did the engine and transmission in the Mustang on it.   It was great for exhaust and working on fuel lines and such under the car.  Its also real handy for oil changes because you can easily do a quick inspection underneath while the oil is draining.  I have done some rear end work also.  All you need is one of those creepers that has the adjustable headrest to get your shoulders on and you can spend a lot of time under there.  They really did their research on the perfect height.  Like they say in their site its low enough to make it comfortable to reach things and high enough to get yourself and parts out from under it and fit in a typical garage.  I cant fit much in mine but a friend just built a new house and I could easily get the Tahoe up on it in her garage.    Downside is especially something like a truck gets to be pretty high if you have to work topside. All things that just take some thought to get used to.

The dual exhaust car is my 73 Eldo.  As you can see the mufflers do hang down quite a bit.  I am thinking of getting rid of that system and going to a custom made oversized single system.  There is just not many places to squish 2 larger (quiet) mufflers under that thing.  One thought I had was to try and put one where the cat went on later models.  My other thought is to see what it would look like to put one where the resonator went.  That existing system is 9 years old and held up by coat hangers because all the mounts broke early on.   I often use the car to tow my boat and the mufflers drag on the crest of the ramps.  They also catch the jacks or oil dran pans on shop lifts, even after I warn then that it will happen.  The Deville is a 'parts car' I bought cheap but decided it was in too good of shape to junk so I gave it a major tune up, major brake job, and a couple of tires and have been using it as a winter car and for EFI experiments.   I have had it listed for sale on Craigs list for about 9 months if anyone wants to 'save' it but so far nothing but scams.  I picked up a 75 Eldo that is in about the same shape that I plan to do the same thing with if I can sell the deville to cover the fix up costs of the eldo.

[STDog]

You guys are right..  Also I don't have a car hoist.  My shop only has 11 foot ceilings in it so I can't get a hoist in it so I have to go and build a room off my shop just for that.. 

Not sure a hoist would help here, and you need to leave the front end on the ground and lift the body.
maybe a chain/cable lift (come-along) and wide nylon strap can lift it high enough to get the assembly out.
I know I saw pictures of this assembly removal being done somewhere on the internet...


I think once it's out your can set the body down on rollers and move it around. Should push easily on a flat, level surface.

[Chris Short CLC 18814]

stdog, a normal car hoist would work for this..  They lift by the body and not by the wheels.   I've decided to give up on this project for a little while..  This is SO major its just not even funny in the slightest..  And it kinda makes me mad cuz theres just plain no reason in this day in age that a head gasket of all things has to go out on a engine anymore..  And then the only way to fix it is such a major undertaking as this..  And at a little over 100K miles thats it.  And I can't sell it this way..  I'd hardly get scrap price for it..  And its in beautiful truely cared for shape..  Everybody doesn't like the 4.1 engine..  I had one of those..  At least it went to 160K before it had major trouble..  And then it wasn't that bad getting the engine out to overhaul..  And then I drove it another 100K and then the car its self gave out..  But that engine was great and didn't use a drip of oil..  Something you can't say for a northstar.  Right now I'm driveing a 89 Fleetwood with 297K on it..  A friend of mine baught it new and was a book salesman.  So it had mostly interstate miles, and excellent care.  I just took it on a 350 mile trip today..  Runs like a watch.  Compeletly original engine..  I baught this car about 3 years ago for a spare car..  Sure glad I did.  So for now the 96 Eldo is going to be parked in the corner of my garage for while till I get a proper hoist and set up..

Chris Short