Help !! 1954 Power Steering Problems

[PHIL WHYTE CLC 14192]

Thanks for your advice Whit. Your description of the pump is correct for my pump. I have disassembled and reassembled this pump about six times now , always carefully checking the assembly procedure re the workshop manual. These are the things I checked on reassembly:
1. that the pulley actually turns the shaft and rotor.
2. that the centre section of the pump is positioned the correct way round [it has a big arrow showing rotation direction cast into it]
3. that the vanes move in their slots and do run to the outside of the elipse on rotation [I can hear them moving when I rotate the pump by hand prior to fitting with no oil in it].
4.checked the relief valve is in the right way round [I even wondered if the parts manual and workshop manual had drawn it the wrong way round] and I tested it with the engine running by pushing it off its seat with a screw driver.
This seems to have covered everything , so now I'm wondering if I have put the centre of the pump on upside down ie the rotation is correct , but maybe it should be turned 180 degrees.The manual makes no mention of this though, but I agree it does appear to be a pressure relief problem.
I'll keep you posted because I can't let this beat me !!
Phil

[35-709]

You will have a EUREKA moment one of these days, Phil, stick with it.  I know this has been covered before but have you made sure one of your hoses is not coming apart inside and a flap of rubber is not blocking it under pressure and then going back to a "normal" position when the pressure is released?  I don't mean just air pressure from an air hose.  I have seen this happen on two occasions with brake line hoses. 
We're rooting for you!

[Glen]

Whit Otis mentioned that there should be something like 2 to 3 thousands between the rotor and the end plates.  This is both sides, front and back plates.  What I am calling the end plates are called the pump body and the pressure plate in the parts manual.  I’m just guessing that the shaft maybe too far into the pump and the rotor is not close enough to the pump body. 

It still bothers me that you are able to unseat the relief valve (actually the flow control valve) with a screwdriver.  It seems to me that it should take considerably more force than that to unseat it.  But then that might be because I don’t fully understand this pump. 

Looking at the parts manual I can not see the output path.  I can’t see how the fluid gets from the pump to the hose fittings on the back of the pump cover.  Do they actually screw into the pressure plate?  If so how does the flow control valve connect up to the output side of the pump?  Looking at the parts manual drawing it seems the flow control valve connects to the output somewhere in the pump cover.  Also it looks like the flow control valve is threaded and screws into the pump cover.  If so why is there a spring between it and the flow control valve cover on the back of the pump cover? 

I looked up and used all the part names in the parts book.  Hopefully the manuals you are using will use the same names so you will know which part I’m talking about.  And hopefully my questions will help you diagnose the problem rather then distract you. 

Glen

[PHIL WHYTE CLC 14192]

Thanks for taking the time to do all this research Glen, I'll try and answer everything point by point and I'll also use the terms used in the manual:
1.I haven't checked the rotor clearance because you can't measure it when it is assembled, however the rotor sits on a spline on the shaft that allows for it to position itself in the fully assembled pump. The pressure plate and spring hold it in position [see below].It is effectively sandwiched between the body and the pressure plate.
2.You are right that it is the flow control valve that I can unseat .It is a virtually sealed unit that has the actual pressure relief valve built into it and that spring is very strong - the pump runs at 900psi.The spring that you see in the manual is quite a soft spring [I'll address its purpose later].
3.The output path is through the cover [the rear part of the pump assembly]. The bottom hole is the pressure line. The fluid is pushed through the holes in the pressure plate .The pressure plate sits on the two pins and in a corresponding hole or chamber machined in the cover.The fluid exits this chamber into a very small hole in the cover and out into the hose.
4.The flow control valve is not threaded ,those are grooves machined in it.It lives in a blind hole machined in the cover and the spring and valve sit in this hole and presses it against the pressure plate. This hole is not truly blind as there is a small passage joining this with the pressure outlet, this results in the pump pressure assisting the afore mentioned spring in pushing the flow control valve against the pressure plate. I'm now thinking that this may be at the root of my problem, because I should have been pushing against 900psi to open the flow control valve.
I think that covers everything. It is really complicated to explain , yet very simple when you look at it. Saying that though, it still has me beat at the moment !!! I don't think I'm going to have much time to do this in the next week or two , but I will post all progress [I live in hope !] as it happens.
Thanks again,
Phil

[Glen]

That clears things up some.  I was curious as to why the flow control valve was spring loaded in its bore.  As you said it presses the pressure plate against the ring cam (with the help of the output pressure) to counteract the internal pressure of the pump.  I’m inclined to look elsewhere for the problem. 

A quick check of the clearance between the rotor and the pump body is to push the vanes as far forward as possible (toward the pulley).  The depth of the vane in the rotor is equal to the clearance between the pump body and rotor.  But you probably knew that already. 

I’m still confused about how the output gets from the pressure plate to the hose fitting in the pump cover. The part that I have a problem with is the seam between the two.  The flow control valve and spring are pushing to separate the two causing a leak.  But that is a design problem and may not have anything to do with your problem.

After that the only thing I can see is the orientation of the ring cam.  Although it looks to be symmetrical in the parts book.  How about front to back? 

Now I’m back to the vanes not extending out to the walls of the ring cam.  How does the output pressure get behind the vanes?  I see the rotor has a groove that connects inner end of the vane slots.  Is it on both sides? 

Now I’m just rambling. 

Glen

[PHIL WHYTE CLC 14192]

Thanks again Glen. No I didn't know that way of checking the clearance , though now you've pointed it out it seems obvious ! Saying that I think the problem has more to do with my reassembly of the pump rather than wear , as it worked perfectly apart from a bad leak prior to that. The pressure plate lives in a machined "chamber"[with the outlet hole in it] in the cover and there is clearance there that the control valve controls ie it keeps the pressure plate against the rotor. Now you may be on to something with the ring cam.It has an arrow showing the direction of rotation and without looking at it I can't work out if it would be possible to mount it back to front , but with the arrow in the right direction - I'll look at the pump tomorrow. As for the rotor I don't remember a groove being in it, if it does I think it would be on both sides as I would definately have noticed that it was not symetrical. I haven't worked out how the pump pressure gets behind the vanes as they are not spring loaded , centrifugal force plus pump pressure must do the job.
If you're rambling it is good rambling , because you might hit the nail on the head.
Phil

[PHIL WHYTE CLC 14192]

Hi everybody, as some of you may have noticed from my posting on timing I have resumed work on my car after giving it wide berth for months and months [I was doing some work on my house] ! Anyway, contrary to my previous belief, I think I found the problem today with my PS. I drove the car yesterday [with no PS] and when I got back I noticed oil leaking out of the filler plug on the steering box. On the 54 the steering box does not share its oil with the power steering, it uses regular thick gear oil. I took the plug out and could clearly see that it was full to overflowing with PS fluid. So I know have the really nasty job of removing the steering box again. My car is the early 54 one piece shaft/box - what a pain ! Is it a big deal to convert to the later two piece set up? what parts would I need [apart from the obvious box ,shaft and rubber coupler] and does any one have these parts in good or servicable condition for sale? If all else fails I can reuse what I've got - it's fine except for when it has to come out of the car.
Thanks,
Phil