To Northstar … or not?

[mistertudball]

I might be interested in a 2000 Cad for sale with the Northstar engine, and wondered what you all thought of it?  I sort of recall that the engine was well thought of when it came out, but something about overheating sticks in my brain, and a search of posts here brings lots of references to leaks.  The 2000 has about 45K on it and seller says it runs beautifully.  What do you think?

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

Don't they use oil like it was going out of style?

Bruce.

[76eldo]

There are a LOT of things to check on these cars.

1.  Oil leaks.  The design of these engines is such that many of them develop terrible oil leaks.  If it's all wet underneath and leaking oil, walk away.

2.  The thread inserts that the head bolts thread into lose the threads and the head bolts loosen up and the head gaskets leak.

Ask the seller if he has replaced the overflow tank or radiator.  If the tank cracked or if the side of the radiator bulged and split, chances are that the head gaskets are allowing exhaust past the gasket into the coolant passages.  If you are serious about the car you need to run the car at least 20 minutes.  The temp gauge should not go past half.  Hit it a few times with wide open throttle and see if the temp goes up on the gauge.  If it does, walk away.

3.  Yes, Northstar engines use a quart every 1000 miles or so.  Not an issue for me.

4.  Check service history.  At 45K miles you should not need the full tuneup, but the car is 14 years old.

5.  I have a 99 Eldo.  I had the headgaskets replaced at 100K due to the failure I noted above.  I found a Cadillac Tech that has his own shop that he runs nights and weekends.  He did my headgaskets, resealed the block, put in all new thread inserts as per the GM procedure, changed the water pump, coolant lines behind the engine, thermostat, and checked everything by putting about 75 miles on the car before giving it back to me and I have been very satisfied with his work.

He did all of the work listed above for $2650.00.  At the dealership, it would have been $6000, exceeding the value of the car.

The 2000 engines were also prone to cracking in the lower part of the block.

If you are serious about the car, I would take it to a mechanic that knows Northstars, maybe even to a Cadillac dealer for an inspection.  They charge 1 hour to check out a car and it's well worth it.

The dealer will find tons of stuff wrong with it, but as long as it's sound, relatively dry underneath, and you check all the stuff above, you can have some confidence.

Brian

[Mike Josephic CLC #3877]

My wife's daily driver is a 1995 SLS with a Northstar.  Never a problem with cooling system
issues or oil leaks.  It has about 70,000 miles on the clock.

Oil leaks that are a problem (large leaks) usually don't develop on these until well after 100,000
miles.  As far as oil consumption, these engines average about 1 quart every 1,000 - 1,500 miles
which is considered "normal" for this design.  Not a big deal for me since she doesn't drive it that
much.

The main thing with these is to change the oil and check the coolant at regular intervals and
change as needed.

Enjoy your car and good luck.

Mike

[C.R. Patton II]

This era Cadillacs were beautiful.  It looks like regular maintenance and attention could produce joyful driving life.

[D.Yaros]

The North* first appeared in the Cadillac Allante in '93.  There were overheating problems with those engines.  I would assume/reason that by 2000 all problems were resolved.  The engine has been around for quite a while now and is still providing reliable service.

[76eldo]

Dave

The 93 Allante is not known for overheating.

Oil leaking, yes.

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

  I would assume/reason that by 2000 all problems were resolved. 

Not by a longshot unfortunately, but as with HT 4100, later usually translates to better - all other things equal.

[waterzap]

I had a 97. Ran beautifully. Sold it to a friend, and she loves the car. What I did drill into her was check the oil, change the oil, change the coolant.  Check the oil, change the oil, change the coolant. So now she checks the oil and coolant on a weekly basis. I did replace all the belts and the coolant reservoir. Nothing broke, but I did not want to risk it. I think it’s a good engine, but you need to stay on top of the maintenance. Above and beyond what they recommend.
Change the coolant every two years, Dexcool. Change the oil at 50% life. Change the transmission fluid every two years or so. Replace the hoses and belts. You just never want the thing to overheat.
I also had a HT4100. That too ran fine.

[mistertudball]

Thanks for all the valuable feedback.  The car is in Florida and I'm in Ohio so checking it myself isn't too practical, but I'd hire that out anyway.  Right now I don't really NEED another car, but this Seville sounds like a grampa-used single-owner; something I'm always interested in.  And no Ohio salt!

[hudson29]

I too am curious about these later Cadillacs. I have a 1999 Dodge Intrepid 3.2 that has been very good but at some point it will need major repair or replacement. Possibly I might just want something else . . .

I ride once a month with a pal who has a DTS sedan. It is very comfortable, has plenty of poke and seems to handle well in the freeway situations I ride with him in. It has a nice large four body trunk . . .

These cars seem to be relative bargains as used cars, 10-20k will fetch a late model low mileage creampuff and these cars seem like they were usually owned by folks who take good care of them and use them sparingly.

Why are they such a good deal? Are they expensive to keep up? Every single one I have seem advertised for sale in the SoCal area is black, white or silver. Didn't they come in any other flavors? Mebbee a dark green, blue or garnet might look really good on these cars?

Vintage Paul, no plans, just curious . . .

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

Why are they such a good deal? Are they expensive to keep up? Every single one I have seem advertised for sale in the SoCal area is black, white or silver. Didn't they come in any other flavors? Mebbee a dark green, blue or garnet might look really good on these cars?

Vintage Paul, no plans, just curious . . .     

G'day Paul,

The reason that the cars are in such colour schemes is that in most cases, the dealers order their stock, and the buyer comes in and buyes what is available immediately as they are not willing to wait for a certain colour to be made for them.   And it is the group of "stylists" that designate what the buying public are supposed to want.   This is how they came up with these most unsafe colours like Silver, Grey and Black.   Plus, a Dealer is not going to order a different coloured vehicle "just-in-case" there might be a person that wants that colour.

My own '97 Fairmont Ghia has travelled 250,000 Kilometres, and still doesn't require any extra oil in the sump before the next Service is due every 10,000 Kilometres.   I purchased it at 117,000 Kilometres, and all that it has required is a Head Gasket replacement.

The trouble with repairs of these "late-model" vehicles is when the electrics or other electrical contained components fail, like the Shockers, they are so costly to buy.

Bruce.

[Roger Zimmermann]

Every single one I have seem advertised for sale in the SoCal area is black, white or silver. Didn't they come in any other flavors?

I have a 2011 DTS, it's Chrystal red!

[txturbo]

A friend of mine owns a Cadillac only repair shop. I asked him the same question when I was considering buying one with the Northstar. He said not to bother if it had over 50k miles unless I'm willing to spend some money on it after I get it. Those motors are great for about 50k mikes. That's about as far as they will go before the o-ring starts leaking that seals the two halves of the block. He charges $3500 to fix the leak. It requires removing the whole subframe and splitting the motor apart....and some of the bolts always twist off requiring drilling and tapping along with a new set of bolts. I also work with a guy that owns one and he has 70k on his and confirmed the oil leaking started about 50k miles. His leaves a puddle everywhere he parks it. But.... Still runs great. I decided to pass.

[hudson29]

The reason that the cars are in such colour schemes is that in most cases, the dealers order their stock, and the buyer comes in and buyes what is available immediately as they are not willing to wait for a certain colour to be made for them.   And it is the group of "stylists" that designate what the buying public are supposed to want.   This is how they came up with these most unsafe colours like Silver, Grey and Black.   Plus, a Dealer is not going to order a different coloured vehicle "just-in-case" there might be a person that wants that colour.

The trouble with repairs of these "late-model" vehicles is when the electrics or other electrical contained components fail, like the Shockers, they are so costly to buy.

Bruce.

I really have to wonder where "stylists" get their ideas in recent decades. To me, a car should look like Sophia Loren not like something out of a Transformers movie. What kind of world is it where the staid German makers like MB have the best looking cars and are the ones copied by anyone not doing a robot imitation? I hope this era moves on quickly!

I have a horror of the electronics also. So many systems to go seriously wrong can't be a good thing. I used to be a pilot and remember that very few airplanes ever had everything working at once. It was required of the Pilot in Command to assess which systems would affect flight safety and plan accordingly. Cars get much less maintenance that airplanes and I worry that it can only lead to trouble down the road.

Vintage Paul

[hudson29]

A friend of mine owns a Cadillac only repair shop. I asked him the same question when I was considering buying one with the Northstar. He said not to bother if it had over 50k miles unless I'm willing to spend some money on it after I get it. Those motors are great for about 50k mikes. That's about as far as they will go before the o-ring starts leaking that seals the two halves of the block. He charges $3500 to fix the leak. It requires removing the whole subframe and splitting the motor apart....and some of the bolts always twist off requiring drilling and tapping along with a new set of bolts. I also work with a guy that owns one and he has 70k on his and confirmed the oil leaking started about 50k miles. His leaves a puddle everywhere he parks it. But.... Still runs great. I decided to pass.

Yes, this would certainly explain why these cars are such bargains. Too bad as Cadillac really should be a Standard of the World.

Vintage Paul

[waterzap]

In the end of the day, a Lexus of the same year might be $12,000
while the Cadillac is only $4,000. Spend the extra $3,000 to fix the head gaskets if they do leak, you are still only up to $7,000. The ones after 2000 also have a LOT less issues with the headgaskets. I think they changed from fine thread to course thread on the head bolts around 2000. Also they compressed the alu block or something, so it doesnt leak oil like the previous ones.
I really didnt have any problems with the one I had. Engine pulls well, and sounds great. But my 3 car rule had me sell it.

[Davidinhartford]

I bought a 2007 DTS because I read that the head gasket issues were finally solved by 2005.

My DTS was great.   Ran perfect.  Idled so smooth you often thought it wasn't running.   Very powerful and ran like a raped Ape.

BUT......at 65,000 miles I started noticing oil drips on my driveway.   So at my next oil change at the Caddy dealer, I told them to look for them.

They shocked me with a $5000 - $6000 estimate to fix all the leaks!     They said "don't bother" they all leak.

So I drove the car until 73,000 miles (this month) and decided to trade it in while it was still running good and looking good.

I was also in the market for an AWD model due to the ridiculous winter we are having this year in New England.      A Cadillac  XTS with AWD was out of the budget (not to mention my service writer at my dealer told me not to buy one due to early production issues) and the CTS AWD is too small for me.     

So I ended up with an absolutely gorgeous 2009 Chrysler 300 Limited AWD with only 37,000 miles on it.  It has more features than my DTS had!      This will hold me over for a couple of years until the XTS AWDs come off-lease and sell for reasonable prices and have had their recalls and bugs worked out.

I miss the DTS though.    They are big, beautiful and powerful cars.

[harry s]

I bought a 2000 SLS with 40K and drove it 140K in ten years with no oil leaks but the oil comsumption went from 1 qt every 1500 miles to 1 qt every 600 miles. It finally started to leak oil. I bought another SLS (2004) with 35K which is now up to 50K with no oil leaks and no consumption between 3K oil changes. It's a great car. I will keep my fingers crossed.     Harry

[Davidinhartford]

Yup.  The earlier ones were real oil drinkers. 

A buddy of mine who was a staunch foreign car owner surprised me and bought a 2001 Deville as a one year old car.    He was horrified that the add oil light came on between changes.   Dealer told him it was normal to add a quart at 750-1000 miles.     He was not pleased and traded the car in for another foreign car.