472 oil pan

[Larry Cerciello]

I am wandering if anyone would know if I can change a front sump oil pan to a rear sump pan. The 472 I am working on I believe is from the late 70s but not sure. There is a number on the back of the block that reads 1495200. Hopefully I can find a pan and pump to fit. Thanks, Larry

[Scot Minesinger]

Larry,

The 472 was manufactured from 1968 thru 1974 model year Cadillacs.  The 500 which was very similar (longer stroke) was offered from 1970 thru 1974 as a front drive only, and in 1975 & 1975 was the exclusive Cadillac engine for all but Seville (350) both FWD and RWD.  1977 thru 1979 model Cadillacs employed the 425 engine which was similar architecture to the 472/500 for all except the Seville (350) and the 1979 Eldorado (350).  Then in 1980 & 1981 Cadillac used the 368 engine exclusively to all Cadillacs both FWD and RWD, also similar architecture to the 472/500.  In 1982 Cadillac used the 4.1 engine a complete departure. (OK not fond of the 4.1 due to power issues)

The front drive engine from 1966 thru 1981 employed a different oil pan, which I believe may have been rear sump.  In any event  a custom oil pan could likely be manufactured from an original by a good welder for rear sump applications.

["Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364]

Larry,
Without all the "splanation", yes, you can use an Eldrorado oil pan and oil pick up on the "5200" block.  The oil pump is the same for both.  I would have to assume you are installing the Cadillac motor into something "non Cadillac".  I might suggest going to the Cadillac Power forum http://www.cadillacpower.com/forum/index.php?sid=665416e13b15fedc2d01da3caba0bede.
Greg Surfas

[Larry Cerciello]

Thanks for all the info. Yes, I am installing this motor in a 39 ford phaeton. There is a sticker on the valve cover saying it is a 472 cu. in. Also there is a HEI distributor which tells me this could be no earlier than a 1974. Earlier in March, I purchased a rear sump pan on eBay but it is about 3 inches too short. The owner claimed it was from a 68 thru 76 eldorado. It does not fit. It needs to be about 25 1/2 long x 11 1/4 wide.

["Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364]

Larry,
It seems that the pan you bought is not what it was claimed to be.  The blocks are the same and the pans fit interchangeably.
Greg Surfas

[TJ Hopland]

I will second checking out Cadillac power forum.   Lots of guys there have these engines in things that are not Cadillacs. 

HEI could have come in a 74 472 but I don't think was real common.  A 74 472 would also be the only year that had a true flat top piston.    An HEI distributor from a 75-80 will drop into an earlier motor only possible issue is slight clearance problems with the smog crossover rail and the inner belt of the dual AC PS belts that were used on the 68-74 motors that came with points distributors. 

Yep all the pans will interchange 472-500-425-368.     

There are basically 3 pans.   

'Front sump' used in the RWD cars 68-76.   Pretty sure its a design unique to Cadillac.

'Mid sump' used in the RWD cars 77-81(ish).  I say ish because the 368 was the commercial chassis engine till 85.   It was almost a rear sump and does work with many swaps. 

'Rear sump' or 'Eldo' use in the 68-78 Eldo's and 80-81 Eldo Seville with the 368 engine option.   There were slight differences over the years but nothing you would be worried about with a swap.  Most had 2 drain plugs, there was a small front sump area and then a hump where the right drive shaft when through.  One problem using this pan for some swaps is the sump area is a few inches lower than most other pans so it can present clearance options with the ground on some swaps.    Besides having to have the correct oil pickup tube you will also need a different dipstick and have to move the tube to the other hole in the block. 

MTS  500cid.com   makes a new pan that is a rear sump and typical depth.  Its not cheap ($600) but may work better than an Eldo pan if you can find one and won't be bent or leaking when you get it. 

[Scot Minesinger]

The electronic ignition was standard on Cadillac in 1974, then in 1975 I understand GM used it on all car models.  1974 is the only year for a 472 without points/condenser.  This would have been on RWD only so none-left the factory with a rear sump pan. 

However of course it can be changed to rear sump (oil pick up would need to change too).  If you have a 472 with an HEI, then it is likely a 74.  It is possible to update a 1968-1973 472/500 to HEI and have it look just like a 1974 or newer HEI, belt and pulleys differ slightly to clear larger HEI.

[TJ Hopland]

Where are you seeing that 74 Hei was standard on all models?   I have not seen many but the few I have seen in person had points and the dual belts.  I have seen photos of 74's that had HEI's and single belts so I know they were out there just have not happened to bump into one in person.    Thinking it was either a early vs late production thing or perhaps a model / factory thing?  Maybe the Eldo plant got HEI's but the Deville plant got the last of the points to use up? 

[936CD69]

According to the 74 Data Book, HEI was a stand alone option for 74. It became standard in 75 along with Catalytic converters and radial tires.

[Scot Minesinger]

OK, I guess in 74 HEI was an option.  Never seen a 74 with points and jumped to the conclusion that it was standard, as few Caddy owners selected these type of technical type options.  Sometimes dealers ordered Cadillacs for stock/display I guess, and the cars were sold off the lot with options not otherwise selected if the owner was doing the ordering.  In any event, any 472 with factory HEI would be a 74.