A slippery slope.

[Davidrubin]

Thanks for the great discussion all.  David, thanks for brining up the topic.  I re-read Bill Anderson's article again last night before responding, just to make sure I understood what you might have read.  Please know Bill's mission in re-charging the judging of the CLC is to make the Club's awards more meaningful to the owners and future owners of our cars.  What a NCRS Top Flight or an AACA Grand National award does for those cars' values, he wants a CLC Senior Crown Wreath to affect a Cadillac's value in the same way.  Bill's primary mission, in his hobby (and his business by the way), is to promote bone stock "as delivered" vehicles on the show field.   Interesting that no one mentioned that there were only 4 modified cars at Brookfield by my accounting not including professional cars.  Those cars were an Eldo with an Olds engine, a '59 limo with a rumble seat, another limo with the Green Bay Packers painted on the hood and trunk, and ONE hot rodded '35-ish LaSalle.  The Eldo with the Olds engine was the biggest offender since all cars on the show field are supposed to sport a Cadillac-build engine.  That comes to 2% of the cars shown at the last GN being modified.

Getting back to the main point which is the article - Bill says we are developing judging criteria for modified cars against appropriate standards.  So the idea is to still segregate modified cars - but integrate the people that own them.   It might be a slippery slope, or it might be putting grip tape on the stairs.   Who really knows, but I think we should back Bill and his dual mission of making the CLC awards even more meaningful, while casting a wider net to sustain the club.

No matter what your position please keep talking.
Dave Rubin
CLC Exec VP

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

I hope the owners of the four modified Cadillacs enjoyed themselves at the Grand National.

I have recently been informed that CLC enrollment has declined by 400 since last year which represents approximately 5%. On the bright side, this attrition is not out of line with membership losses of other marque car clubs. In some cases, I believe it was much worse than that experienced by the CLC.

In any case, I fully back Bill's decision and all avenues should be kept open in order to help ensure the CLC's continued survival. More is certainly better and the expertise and knowledge that many customers bring to the table cannot be denied. And who knows, today's modified owner may well become a disciple of original, tomorrow.

Let us not forget, car associations are first about the people, cars a distant second. 

Thanks,
Eric

[Rob Troxel]

I have both types and can tell you any car that gets a new person interested in the hobby is a good thing. Modified or otherwise. We need new blood!  My 41  street Packard does get a few remarks about not being "correct".  Too bad is what I say.  My  engineless car was saved from the crusher. I returned the exterior to a stock configuration but really love to walk out and start that 500 cid engine with no drama, then cruise down the interstate @ 75 mph @ 2000 rpm getting 20 mpg.  Thank you Cadillac for such a fine engine!  So Packard or Cadillac? Depends. It makes people smile and yes it stops with 4 wheel discs brakes too!

As David points out, I'd hate to hammer a good condition stock Caddy into a rod unless there was no other way to economically save the car.

[Smedly]

A new kid might come in with a modified, but after a few GNs and conversations with the  knoligable people that the clc has there next build could easily be restoration to original specs. However if you don't welcome them once they will not return and most likely stay with modifying for ever.  One of the reasons I have not joined the clc is because I have only recently been able to test my driveline (about 300 miles), If something catastrophic goes wrong with the driveline guess what, I do not have the funds to put into another flathead so it will be replaced with something newer ,bigger, faster and stronger. and easier to get parts for. As well as cheaper. I would try to get a 500 but if I could not find one then it would be bbc or sbc what ever keeps my Cadillac on the road. To join the clc at this point only to be shund later for a choice I may have to make would be a waste of my money. If the clc were more open to modifieds maybe I would make that step. But in my opinion the chance to take part in the GN is part of membership to the clc.
Just my .05 worth ( we don't have pennies anymore)

[Stinson]

Hello Smedly, good to have you here weather you are a member or not. You should not let this string of discussion sway you from joining the CLC. As you can see we are all welcome here to discuss our opinions. The only real issue here is parking our cars beside each other in competition - so to speak.

Did you try talking with the Modified Chapter people yet? You might not know that many of them are also speaking here, and offer very valuable information and assistance. They will certainly advise you well in any direction you choose to proceed with your car. I've been here for 10 years when I purchased my car back on July 4, 2005 and have been helped by both Chapters to an unbelievable degree along the way. Without them I would have been lost. I started my car staying on the "like original" route for 95% but then modified some things the way I like them on my car. Just keep in mind that if you change something there are many other things that will need changing along the way and all that means money, money, money. Consider long and hard before you change the engine then the transmission, then the rear end, then the springs and it will be on an on and on. Same with changing the 6 volt system to 12 volts for the optional engine. You can obtain another original engine here for far less - beleave me. But, if you still want to go that way of choice, they will help you figure out everything and save you many heart aches. I am a member there too.
Ty Stinson

[Stinson]

Oh, and by the way, you should join the CLC NOW. Why? Because you are just starting out and you need to get your car in the roster. There you will see a listing of all the members cars just like yours, where they are located, if near you, and owner contact information. You will certainly like the monthly magazine and will be at your post box waiting for the delivery. Joining dos not mean you are a purest.
Ty Stinson

[Stinson]

Hello again Smedly, just received notice that the Cadillac & LaSalle Club Potomac Region will feature the first time, CLC regional dealer-sponsored car show for modified Cadillacs and LaSalles, Magnificent Modifieds, the theme for this year's Annual Fall Car Show on Sunday, October 25th at Capitol Cadillac in Greenbelt, MD, will celebrate the creativity and craftsmanship of these unique Cadillacs and LaSalles. I hope to see you there. Show hours 9:00 am - 2:30 pm. Call them on 301 441 9600 or www.ecapitol.com
Visit on the web -
www.clcpotomacregion.org
Ty Stinson

[INTMD8]

I suggest another important and necessary distinction:  all wheel rims must be the same diameter as original for the car.   If the car came with 15s, then any wheel change must be 15" in diameter.....or 16",
as the case may be.

I suppose that would exclude me as 15" wheels don't fit over 14" disc brakes. Good thing I'm not concerned with CLC judging, I can just roll around in my donk'd Brougham blasting Tupac 

[76eldo]

I have read the comments here and actually, if someone owns a car and wants to make it unique and modify it to suit their own tastes, who can really say what is right or wrong.  The situation that arises when a substantially modified Caddy rolls into a regional or national CLC event, these people would like to be welcomed to a CLC event, which they should be. 

The last big show I attended that was a CLC event was the Capitol Cadillac show in DC.  There was a guy there with a semi modified 60 convertible, shaved nose and deck, mods under the hood.  His car was featured in the showroom.  There was another car outside, a 63 or 64 Coupe with a satin blue paint job and custom 20" wheels with Vogues.

Who are they harming?  We are talking about production cars that were made by the thousands in some cases.  I personally bought a treasure trove of original parts this year from two different guys that were building high dollar customs out of 1960 Seville's.  I am using some of the parts for my own stock original Seville and sold other parts to guys doing authentic restorations.

Let these guys have a category and a spot at our shows.  Give it a try.  You don't need to look at their cars, but if they are Cadillac owners and pay dues, let them show their cars and take a look at something different.  Lets face it, the car hobby is changing.  You can join the AACA and take a 1983 Dodge Caravan and enter it at fall Hershey because it's old enough. Seems crazy to me but maybe that vehicle is really special to someone.  The hobby is all about appreciation and preservation of cars and trucks.  There are lots of ways to do that.

Personally I would rather look at a modified Cadillac than a 2 year old Cadillac at a CLC dealer show but if someone is proud of their Cadillac and wants to show it, who am I to dictate what is acceptable.  Maybe a guy with a 41 60 Sixty Special who remembers an 85 Eldo as a new car thinks it's crazy to see one parked at an "old" car show.

Live and let live, open your mind, and try to appreciate the skills that some of these modified guys possess.

Brian

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

G'day Brian,

I am with you, and all the other car owners that appreciate anything automobillia.

But, having said that, I do like to look at a totally stock as a rock Cadillac, or LaSalle, or even a Goggomobile, and appreciate it, and if it is standing against a Modified vehicle of the same type, it is great to appreciate the work that has gone into both the modifications, or restoration.

To say that a Car Club has to stay strictly to the original aims of said club, then it will eventually die, as there will be nobody left to get onto committees and run the clubs.

Don't forget that the CLC was formed to only cover Cadillacs and LaSalles up to 1941.   But, somewhere along the way, the coverage was increased to later and later years.   If it didn't do this, then it wouldn't be the strong club it is now.   Take out all the cars newer than 1946, and there are only 8 pages of vehicles in the International Membership Directory.   Add after 1946, and there are 28 pages up to the year 2010.

All clubs need to be aware that in a lot of cases, exclusiveness leads eventually to snobbishness, and soon demise.

If we want to grow, we need all the assistance we can get, and I hate to say it, but if the younger generation cannot afford to purchase older stock cars for reasonable prices, they will gravitate to the later models, and change then to suit their own needs.

Years ago, when cars were cheap, we would go out and buy them, really cheaply, but when we want to sell them, we want to get astronomical money.

Plus, in a lot of cases, we cleaned out all the cheap cars from our local surroundings, leaving nothing for the next generation.   I even cleaned out most of Tasmania of 1935 and 1936 Ford wrecks and parts, (11 of them) just to build up one 1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe.   And that was just for body parts.   But, a lot did go via the Speedways and demolition derbies.

Bruce.    

[Davidinhartford]

I think some of you are missing my point.

I am against changing the judging rules for the modified cars to be easier for them to win trophies at CLC events.
I don't think it is a good idea to encourage these guys to cut up and bastardize perfectly good classic cars.   
Up to now, the judging system was harsh on these cars so their owners got plenty of deductions.  Thus they realized
that our club was for preserving the cars not altering what the designers and stylist created.

Changing to 15 inch wheels so you can add disc brakes but going to great trouble to make the wheelcovers look stock is
commendable in my opinion.   Take a minor hit on judging for the disc brakes.    I don't see it as a big deal.

Those aren't the mods that I am worried about.   

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

The creation of a special modified class simply provides owners of these cars an avenue to have their cars judged among their peers as opposed to regular primary in which such cars have virtually no chance of winning an award. Cars in the modified class are not going to be judged against stock originals in the regular Primary or Senior divisions.

Judging rules and procedure in regular class divisions will not be affected or modified in any way.

The creation of such a class does not in any way dilute the CLC judging standards of authenticity nor the primary focus or fundamental mission of the CLC.

This is not to say these modifieds are necessarily "inferior" or "lesser" than their original/stock brethren, simply that they are different, unique and it would be folly for the CLC to ignore the products of the talents, ingenuity and workmanship of individuals responsible for these creations.

To wit:

An article written in 1953 documents the customization & sectioning of a then-new 1952 Cadillac Coupe. This was and extremely complex and expensive undertaking with nearly as much artistic conceptualization design analysis as that had been done at GM when designing the car in the first place. The final product was tastefully and beautifully done and every bit as attractive as the original 1952 Cadillac Coupe had been - at least to my eyes - if not, moreso.

http://www.kustomrama.com/index.php?title=Ed_Wilder's_1952_Cadillac

Another example that comes to mind is a pair of V16 Fran Roxas creations for which Cadillac had drawings but were never actually built. One was a 1937 dual cowl Phaeton, the other a 1934 Rumbleseat Roadster.

http://www.autoblog.com/2012/08/15/cadillac-bringing-pair-of-depression-era-cars-that-went-unsold-t/

Both of these cars were so well executed with attention to detail so meticulous, either could easily pass for factory issue to perhaps all but the most astute and knowledgeable prewar Cadillac experts.

So there are just three examples of three very well done, well thought-out and well executed creations that would be a welcome exhibit at any CLC meet. (The two Roxas cars had already been shown at Pebble Beach)

Cars like these are only the tip of the iceberg; there are many more and when discussing "modifieds" or "customizations", it is important to recognize just how broad the category is.

Not every custom is the "rat rod" or "donk" you saw parked last night at the 7-11.

Thanks. 

[quadfins]

Well stated, Eric.

Below are the guidelines from the judging manual, which apply to Primary, Senior, Wreath, and Crown divisions.

Addition of the Modified Division has not changed these classes at all.

1.  The Primary Division is for Cadillac and LaSalle automobiles manufactured as 1999 models and older and/ or which are 20 years old and older as manufactured, assembled and/or authorized for sale by the Cadillac Motor Division of General Motors.

2. The Touring Division is for Cadillac and LaSalle automobiles manufactured as 1999 models and older and/or which are 20 years old and older as manufactured, assembled and/or authorized for sale by the Cadillac Motor Division of General Motors that are regularly driven and not maintained as pristine, like-new cars.

3. The Senior Division is intended to promote the preservation of Cadillac and LaSalle automobiles to the highest standards. First-place winning cars in the Primary Division advance to the Senior Division.

I don't understand how these can be interpreted as "watering down" the standards for Authentic cars.

Jim

[Jason Edge]

I will add that for the purist that love original cars the judging criteria for Primary and Senior cars is actually getting more picky since they will be graded purely against the benchmark of the condition of the car as originally delivered to the first owner, instead of points comparisons between cars for 1st, 2nd and 3rd finish.  I've judged the last 3 years in Primary and will confirm if you put a heavily modified car in the "Primary" field, it will quickly rack of deductions to score it below the point threshold for any awards.  Also, it must be reiterated that modified will have their on judging class, whatever, that may be and will have zero affect on the grading of cars in the Touring, Primary and Senior Classes. 
There is room for everyone, regardless if you are into original unrestored, restored to original, modified to partial custom, or modified to full custom.  As Chief Judge Bill Anderson stated in his July 2015, Self Starter Article - Modified Cars in the future CLC judging, "We continue to recognize those that maintain, preserve and restore Cadillacs and LaSalles to their as-manufactured condition." 
If anything, the CLC is adding to and not taking away anything from anyone. If anything, the true purists should be thrilled with the direction Bill Anderson is taking us and would encourage those interested read the Chief Judges blog on the main website (or by clicking here: http://www.cadillaclasalleclub.org/category/chief-judges-blog/, downloading and reading Judging Manual (available here http://www.cadillaclasalleclub.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/CLC_JudgingManual.pdf. Or, better yet go to the next Grand National and volunteer to judge. You will have a much better appreciation of the entire process and what goes into it.

[Davidinhartford]

  If anything, the true purists should be thrilled with the direction Bill Anderson is taking us

I don't understand how these can be interpreted as "watering down" the standards for Authentic cars.

Why would a purist be thrilled to see a section of Donk cars on the show field or on the cover of a future Self Starter magazine?

Having their own separate judging criteria still sends a message that we as a club approves of them altering the cars in a way that
does not "maintain, preserve and restore Cadillacs and LaSalles to their as-manufactured condition." 

I never wrote that the standards for the existing classes are being watered down.   I am opposed to watering down the standards for the
modified class.  They should be held to the same standards.   Which they obviously cannot meet.

The first issue of a Self Starter with a Donk car on the cover will be my last.

[Jay Friedman]

As has been said before, do any of those customizers think they can do a better job than Harley Earl?

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

This topic has now been locked.

Bruce.