1951 Series 62 engine swap.

[polonus]

I want to swap the engine in my 1951 Cadillac, but I need some advise from you.  My goal is to have a daily driver and sometimes go on 1-2 day road trips.

1. Should I go for a new crate engine, or better find complete used engine/transmission from a donor car?

2. What size/kind of engine should I look for? What transmission?

3. Can I keep original axles/suspension (with update to disc brakes)? Can I update it to power steering?

4. What will be the less expensive way?

5. Can I keep AC unit from donor car if I go that way? How difficult would it be to make it work in my Cadillac? If I go with crate engine I have to add AC for roughly $$$$2-3000, right?

6. Can I easily sell original engine/transmission of my car? How much can I get for it?

Thanks for your thoughts on that.

[35-709]

My opinion ---
1.  Rebuild your current engine, why swap it out?  Probably less money and fewer problems.
2.  You won't find a Cadillac crate engine for that car, hopefully you are not thinking of denigrating the car with a small block Chevy.  Used?  Why buy someone else's troubles?  With used you will soon enough be back where you are now.
3. Yes.
4.  See #1.
5.  Using an AC from a donor car (which donor car?) will be a lot of work.  Aftermarket AC/Heat systems will still be work but much easier and you get a new system.
6.  Depends on the condition of the used engine and transmission.  If in need of overhaul, not much, if anything.

[polonus]

Thank you for your advice.

My opinion ---
1.  Rebuild your current engine, why swap it out?  Probably less money and fewer problems.

Modern engine would  be more "drivable" for a daily driver. Better performance and better fuel millage.

2.  You won't find a Cadillac crate engine for that car, hopefully you are not thinking of denigrating the car with a small block Chevy.  Used?  Why buy someone else's troubles?  With used you will soon enough be back where you are now.

That is exactly what I am thinking of.  "Denigrating" this car with small block Chevy.  And if I'll go with used engine, it would be something 5-10 years old. that's 50 years younger that what I have now.

This is not a unique car, one of a kind, worthy to protect its originality for any cost. It is beautiful car, but there are many of them left, sitting in various collections and storage places. I drive my car almost every day. I don't want to mess with its looks, but I'd love to have something more practical under the hood.

[James Landi]

Surely, the purist among us cringe, but I "get your drift."   I drove my '56, 62 short deck sedan for 15 years as a daily driver... It had a highly effective air conditioning system, and all the requisite bells and whistles to make it extraordinary comfortable for my ninety mile commute to work each day--- when it wouldn't pass NJ pollution control inspection, I spent a ton of money to have the engine entirely rebuilt--- alas, shortly thereafter, rust began to eat away at my old beauty. That was 1978, and I gave the car away.  All this is to say that owning an old car and having it functional in today's demanding traffic requires a good deal of thought about JUST where to invest your hard earned discretionary cash... this is especially true if your wife's engagement is a requirement for you to be fulfilled.   I have been soooo very fortunate to have a friend who  owns an independent garage. When my 85 convertible developed its obligatory 4100 death rattle, he willingly donated his time to get my old gal back on the road.  His only precondition: that we substitute a GM engine that has rock-solid reputation from a donor car.(in my case, a 265 cid Olds). The parts cost including the used engine cost around $3,000-- I sustpect the labor charge would have been around 5k  Now, when my wife and I go driving, I no longer have a care about the car's engine failing.   

[polonus]

I am fortunate enough to have a wife who not only tolerates my love for cars but also fully supports it. It doesn't hurts that she makes more money then I do either. 

I have an M3 with supercharger, 600 HP, little Fiat from 1988 with 2-cylinder engine, 24 HP and 1951 Cadillac.



My wife  drives new 328i and loves her car, so she doesn't care what do I do with my "fleet". Except that we do not have separate banks accounts and I do not do anything behind her back, so she has to approve any of my crazy projects.

If I have to go on a longer trip, I take mine or hers Bimmer. Fiat is not powerful enough to take it to the freeway. It would go 65, but that is its limit and one can drive that fast only for short time.  However I love to drive my Cadillac. I wish I could take it everywhere. Now I am a little bit afraid to do this. Plus it makes only 9 miles per gallon.

I didn't make my decision yet. I need better brakes, A/C, P/S, but I am not sure what to do with the engine and transmission. If I could rebuild it, convert it  to 390, maybe I would keep it. However I afraid that always would be problem with leaking seals, starvation for oil, not so smooth gear changes, poor fuel mileage etc.

If I put new crate engine, it will last longer then I, since I am 57 now and in 20 years or so I'll be gone. 

There is a shop near, where its owner showed me a Mazda RX7 with Corvette engine and 1962 Cadillac with big block crate engine, so he knows what he is doing. He said that all that engine swap, with base 350 small block would be around $10K, including A/C. I wouldn't do it till next spring, because I need to save some money first, but as for today, this is the most appealing option for me. To go with the crate engine, modern transmission, disc brakes, A/C and power steering.

I do not need big power - for that I have my M3. I think 200 -250 HP would be sufficient. 51 Series 62 is not that heavy - weights about 4100 pounds. I just need reliable drivetrain, so I could use that car with confidence,

[35-709]

I have no real objection to repowering the car --- I have a 472 in my '35 Cadillac.  But why not repower with a Cadillac engine like a '60 to '62 390.  And there is absolutely no reason a properly rebuilt 1951 Cadillac engine and transmission cannot be reliable. 
Enjoy your car. 

[polonus]

... why not repower with a Cadillac engine like a '60 to '62 390.  And there is absolutely no reason a properly rebuilt 1951 Cadillac engine and transmission cannot be reliable.

I don't know. That's why I ask you, guys.  If someone can tell me who can rebuild my engine, or where I can get rebuilt 390, I can go that way. As far as the transmission goes, it doesn't shifts as smooth as modern ATs do. I don't know if that's the way it is, or if there's something wrong with it.

I think new crate engine will be more reliable then rebuild 50 year old mill and I think new engine/modern transmission would be smoother then old Cadillac/s setup, but I could be wrong.

[J. Gomez]

Piotr,

You could post the same inquiry at the Modified Cadillac chapter http://www.modifiedcadillac.org/.

Folks there may be able to provide options on this topic. 

Good luck..!

[Caddy Wizard]

I have had 15 Cadillacs between 1949 and 1956 and driven them as daily drivers about half the days over the last 25 years.  I can say with certainty that these Cadillac engines produce lots of power and are EXTREMELY reliable.  The transmissions, once redone, are smooth and bullet-proof.  There is no need to put in something else for reliability or power.

All reliability issues in these engines relate to fuel pumps, carbs, and ignition, not mechanical problems in the engines themselves.  Those external problems will exist in a crate engine running modern fuel with alcohol in it.  I once put electronic fuel injection on a 49 Cadillac, but found that it was overkill (see pictures attached).  The best solution to fuel issues is to run a very robust electric fuel pump at the back full-time, not as an auxiliary.  That avoids vapor lock and lots of other problems that often seem like carb or ignition issues, but really are fuel starvation/lean-out issues.

I have no issue with someone wanting to modify their car -- it is their car, not MY car, after all.  But before you do it, ask yourself why are you doing it.  I have done lots of mods over the years and found out which ones are beneficial and which ones are not.  In my humble opinion, swapping the engine for a 350 crate motor is a waste of effort with no tangible benefit to the owner.  It will also greatly limit the number of potential buyers for such a car.

[polonus]

I have had 15 Cadillacs between 1949 and 1956 and driven them as daily drivers about half the days over the last 25 years...

Preach to me, man. 

I can say with certainty that these Cadillac engines produce lots of power and are EXTREMELY reliable.  The transmissions, once redone, are smooth and bullet-proof.  There is no need to put in something else for reliability or power.

If that is the case I have no reason to look for a crate engine. However now my car hesitate a lot, every gear change feels like someone kicked my butt and my fuel millage sucks. Engine also makes valve clicking noises and my mechanic said it needs new camshaft. If I can make this car fully reliable and "everyday driving trusty" I would stay with the original engine.

Just tell me what can I do to improve it. Should I stay with 331 or bore it to 390? Change carburetor, cams? What about the transmission? Is it any truth in those leaking rope seals in this engine?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLJL0kHSm9A&feature=youtu.be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZELZoSGaKZU&feature=youtu.be

[Caddy Wizard]

Find a quality rebuilder (auto machine shop), someone who has been in business a long time and knows how to do this Cad engine.  Bore it over as little as needed.  No need for a hotter cam.  Pay extra to have the engine "blueprinted" and precision balanced.  That will result in maximum smoothness and power.  Have the exhaust manifolds ceramic coated (see Performance Coatings in Georgia).  Stick with the stock Carter 2-bbl carb -- it is a wonderful performer, highly refined by 1951 for great performance and reliability.  Use a dynamic rubber lip seal on the main (Best makes one).  By the way, I greatly prefer Best brand gaskets.  Don't overtighten anything, especially valve cover and oil pan bolts -- use a torque wrench calibrated in inch-pounds.  Use dual point ignition plate or Pertronix electronic ignition module to get a better spark and open the plug gap to .040".  Keep it 6v, but pay very careful attention to grounds and heavy, thick battery cables.  See the article Jay Friedman and I authored in the Self-Starter about adding an auxiliary ground to the starter motor. Rebuild and restore the Carter carb, either yourself or by a specialist.  Have someone replace the rubber diaphragm in the vacuum advance unit on the distributor (Terrell Machine??).  Keep the exhaust system a single exhaust, but up the size of the pipes to 2-1/4" from the stock 2" for easier breathing and more power, and get it in stainless for long life.  Avoid using heavy duty spring in the oil pump to keep from producing excessive oil pressure.  51 engines run cool, so you are likely okay on vapor lock.  If you have any issues, you can install a aux electric pump or a full-time electric pump.  Anyway, that is the hot set up for the 51 engine.


The trans will need to be redone by someone who is old and knows the H-M tranny.  Shifts 1-2 and 3-4 will be nice and soft, but 2-3 will be firmer and more noticeable than you are used to in a modern car.  It is how the transmission is supposed to work.  But once done correctly, these transmissions are wonderful.  Have the tranny guy pay careful attention to adjusting the throttle valve (TV) rod -- he'll know.

These engines and transmissions are reliable enough for daily commutes and for cross-country travel.  In my opinion, 51 (picture attached) is one of the very best years for the drive train (for various technical reasons).  54 and 55 are also very good.  But all of the 49-55 Cadillac power trains are great.  Well, some might complain about the 53 DynaFlow transmissions...

[polonus]

Thanks, Art. If I only knew how to find that someone in the Carolinas who knows how to works on classic Cadillacs...

[Jay Friedman]

Piotr,

From what I can see in your 1st video, the carburetor is not the stock Carter WCD carburetor for a '51 that Art mentioned, but some other carb, though the video isn't clear and I may be mistaken.  The valve lifters, push rods and rocker arms in your motor are very noisy.  It sounds like the motor has either low oil pressure, dirt in the upper oil passages, faulty valve lifters or all 3, and certainly needs to be rebuilt.  ('51 Cadillac don't have an oil pressure gauge but just an idiot light.  Is that the red light lit up on your dash in the video?) 

I agree with everything Art said about rebuilding and improving the motor and, especially, that you couldn't improve upon it with a crate or any other kind of engine.  (Well...., unlike Art I'm not a great fan of Pertronix or dual point ignition, but that's a detail and just my humble opinion.)  As for the "dynamic rubber lip seal on the main" Art mentioned: in non-engineer's language this is a neoprene rubber rear main bearing seal that should be used in place of the rope seal that comes with most engine gasket sets.  They are sold by Terrill Machine Company in Deleon, Texas. 

I don't know about anyone in the Carolinas who knows these motors, but here in northern Georgia, which is not that far away, there are at least 2 good machine shops who would do an excellent job and are experienced with 49-55 Cadillac motors:

GOZA Auto Parts and Machine Shop, 4391 S Main Street, Acworth, GA 30101, phone (770) 974-2088

Will's Auto Machine Shop Incorporated, 3149 Chamblee Dunwoody Rd, Atlanta, GA 30341, phone (770) 451-4081

Art Gardner and I have used them both with great results.  (My '49's motor was rebuilt by Will's and it took me and the car 1,700 miles round trip to the CLC Grand National in Wisconsin in hot weather, only using ½ quart of oil, without overheating and starting perfectly every time.) 

[Jay Friedman]

Just remembered that there is a shop in NC that used to do full vintage car restorations, specializing in Cadillacs and Buick, but I've heard now only does upholstery and interiors.  However, they may know of an engine rebuilder in your area.  Give them a call.

Jenkins Restorations, 102 Chestnut St, NORTH WILKESBORO, NC 28659, (336) 667-4282  The guy in charge is Hill Jenkins.

[gene harl]

I now have over 6000 miles on my rebuilt 51 with a stock 331 engine and cruise control.. I have made 3 trips to Las Vegas ,, About 850 miles around and got 17 to 18 miles to the gal. driving 70 mph.. on one tank of gas I got 22 mpg .. I had a very strong tail wind .... I don't know why you guys are getting   such poor fuel milage...  I just wish I had power steering,, it's a bear in parking lots..
          Gene Harl    CLC22406

[polonus]

First of all I apologize for not answering earlier. I work 12-14 hours a day and not always have time to turn on my computer. I appreciate all your thoughts and suggestions.

Piotr,

From what I can see in your 1st video, the carburetor is not the stock Carter WCD carburetor for a '51 that Art mentioned, but some other carb, though the video isn't clear and I may be mistaken.

I'll do another video showing it, but I'll start new tread about fuel millage in that car.

The valve lifters, push rods and rocker arms in your motor are very noisy.  It sounds like the motor has either low oil pressure, dirt in the upper oil passages, faulty valve lifters or all 3, and certainly needs to be rebuilt.  ('51 Cadillac don't have an oil pressure gauge but just an idiot light.  Is that the red light lit up on your dash in the video?) 

My mechanic said it needs new camshaft. Red light is for oil pressure.

in non-engineer's language this is a neoprene rubber rear main bearing seal that should be used in place of the rope seal that comes with most engine gasket sets.  They are sold by Terrill Machine Company in Deleon, Texas. 

Thanks

here in northern Georgia, which is not that far away, there are at least 2 good machine shops who would do an excellent job and are experienced with 49-55 Cadillac motors:

GOZA Auto Parts and Machine Shop, 4391 S Main Street, Acworth, GA 30101, phone (770) 974-2088

Will's Auto Machine Shop Incorporated, 3149 Chamblee Dunwoody Rd, Atlanta, GA 30341, phone (770) 451-4081

Thanks again. How do they work? Can I drive/tow my car there and they will do all the job, or do I need to send them just the engine?  How much job like that will cost me?

Just remembered that there is a shop in NC that used to do full vintage car restorations, specializing in Cadillacs and Buick, but I've heard now only does upholstery and interiors.  However, they may know of an engine rebuilder in your area.  Give them a call.

Jenkins Restorations, 102 Chestnut St, NORTH WILKESBORO, NC 28659, (336) 667-4282  The guy in charge is Hill Jenkins.

Thanks for that too. In my car odometer doesn't work, and speedometer is about 30% off, so maybe he would be the guy to fix those problems.

I now have over 6000 miles on my rebuilt 51 with a stock 331 engine and cruise control.. I have made 3 trips to Las Vegas ,, About 850 miles around and got 17 to 18 miles to the gal. driving 70 mph.. on one tank of gas I got 22 mpg .. I had a very strong tail wind .... I don't know why you guys are getting   such poor fuel milage...  I just wish I had power steering,, it's a bear in parking lots..
          Gene Harl    CLC22406

That's good news. It gives me hope. I'll start today another topic about fuel millage in those cars, so maybe you can help me there.

[Jay Friedman]

Quote: "Thanks again. How do they work? Can I drive/tow my car there and they will do all the job, or do I need to send them just the engine?  How much job like that will cost me?"

I think Will's would require that you send them the motor, but I'm not sure.  I think the same is true of Goza's, but again I'm not sure.  Call them and ask.  A full engine rebuild will be expensive.  I'm not sure since I do part of the needed work myself (take the motor apart, etc.) when having an engine rebuilt so I can't give you an accurate estimate.  I would say $2,500 - $3,500 but I could be wrong.

If your oil pressure is so low the light comes on, there is definitely something wrong.  Your mechanic is right, as the noisy lifters and rocker arms certainly point to a bad camshaft.

[polonus]

If your oil pressure is so low the light comes on, there is definitely something wrong.

Oil pressure light is on only when I turn the key, before I start engine. It never goes on when engine is running. Light which stayed on was indicating that parking brake was on.

[Caddy Wizard]

Most engine machine shops don't remove or install engines -- general mechanics do that.  But the engine machine shops do work on the motor that a regular mechanic (like me) can't do properly.  So typically you need the services of both.

As for cost, the machine shop will usually charge you in the neighborhood of 3-4K including parts to do a thorough rebuild.

Some parts are better to be reconditioned than replace with new, as the new parts are sometimes of low  quality.  The engine machinist typically can make that call...

[polonus]

I know some of you will be disappointed, but I decided to change everything in that car.

I want new engine and transmission, power disc brakes, power steering, seatbelts  and cool A/C.  I am planning to do this in January 2016 and all your suggestions how to go about it are welcomed. 

Any suggestions about transmission, rear end ratio, etc are needed. I am not going to make a hot rod from that car, I just want dependable daily transportation. I want to go in this car for a trip around the USA. I want a car which would cruise easily on the interstate at 70-80 mph.

Are there any issues with the suspension/wheel hubs and such? Can I keep the original ones? Car seems to be very tight, no strange noises from the wheels, but it is 65 years old and I don't want to loose my wheel driving 80 mph.