How my experience with a paint and custom shop went horribly wrong

[Big Apple Caddy]

I stand by my original advice to talk to the person at the shop whose hands will actually be doing the work on your car.  You can find out a lot, if the shop has money troubles, work ethic, attention to detail, attitude and etc.

Perhaps but how likely is a current/active employee of a small business like this going to openly speak negatively about the business to a customer?  Their own livelihood (paycheck) is tied to that business too.  If it could be done anonymously, maybe, but that wouldn’t be the case here.

[Scot Minesinger]

Big Apple Candy,

I just talk to the person for 20 minutes who is going to work on my car.  You can't ask "hey does this place lack cash?"  But I can find information in 20 minutes that is indicative of the operation.  Right now I might inquire about his technical knowledge and then go to it by asking "how was your holiday?", and if they complain about money that warrants further gentle investigations... and so on.  If you don't feel like this will work for you then you are probably correct, but it does usually work for me.  We can only relate personal experiences in learning about this hobby. 

Talk to policeman and lawyers on this subject, they will tell you how to get the information you want without alarming the interviewee. 

Plus you may not want this guy working on your car due to attitude, experience or etc., and need to insist that another perform the work.

[Jon S]

Big Apple Candy,

I just talk to the person for 20 minutes who is going to work on my car.  You can't ask "hey does this place lack cash?"  But I can find information in 20 minutes that is indicative of the operation.  Right now I might inquire about his technical knowledge and then go to it by asking "how was your holiday?", and if they complain about money that warrants further gentle investigations... and so on.  If you don't feel like this will work for you then you are probably correct, but it does usually work for me.  We can only relate personal experiences in learning about this hobby. 

Talk to policeman and lawyers on this subject, they will tell you how to get the information you want without alarming the interviewee. 

Plus you may not want this guy working on your car due to attitude, experience or etc., and need to insist that another perform the work.

Scot -

In a perfect world, I agree. 

However, many shops will not allow you to speak with their employees and some have "Insurance Regulations" (real or perceived) prohibiting you from entering the shop.  There are ways around it and I concur, the more information you can gather; the better informed you will be.  If you can't get past the owner/salesperson, that is a bad sign.  Most good shops are proud of their work and employees and are happy to share that with a prospective customer.

[55 cadi]

Don't want to keep going off topic but,

Bobby,

No realty check needed.

The reality is the law, and even good tradesman can only take 10% of cost of job, if a tradesman is "good" then they have the money to start project and collect more after the first inspection or at end first phase of work they get another check.

And like I said, this is for California, don't know what the other states are.

[Mike Josephic CLC #3877]

Sean:

First of all, let me add my condolences to you for your unfortunate experience.

Back in the 90's, I had an ongoing restoration being done by a firm
in New England (now out of business).  Due to a fire he had and
being underinsured he went into a financial hole from which he tried
to use all sorts of tricks to survive.  This included using my payments
to him to cover his payroll, etc.  The IRS finally caught up to him
due to non payment of taxes and he declared bankruptcy.

I had visited often enough and some work had been done, but I
didn't realize until I finally got the car back (I was fortunate there)
that much of the work was substandard.  Once they file for
reorganization with IRS liens, etc. you are stuck.  You're money is
gone and no lawyer on earth can do anything for you.  Pennies on
the Dollar is all you would get if anything.  Your may also have to
go to court to get your own vehicle back.

Bottom line, he took me for close to $100K when all was said and
done.

The best advice I can give you is to look at a number of examples of
the shop's work before even thinking about sending them your car.
One good place to so this is at a Grand National (or AACA national
meet), where some of the best restoration houses show their work. 

That's how I selected the shop to do my '55 Eldorado.  I judged
every year and saw multiple 100 point cars having been done by
this shop and spoke to the owner a number of times.  He has also
been in business for over 25 years.

An honest shop will be happy to talk to you and usually the owner is
present at shows like this.  Take the opportunity to ask questions.
Also, keep in mind that a quality restoration is never cheap and any
shop that quotes you an upfront "too good to be true" price is one
to walk quickly away from.

Good luck in the future,

Mike

[Bobby B]

J.
Nobody on the East Coast could operate under that Law and make a Living. Tradesman are not Personal Bankers and clients can be difficult near the end, especially since they have unrealistic expectations and can become delusional when discussing what was included or not included in your scope of work. This is Fact, ask anybody who does this for a living. By the way, the amount of money that someone is worth usually doesn't equate with how good  (or bad) they are at something, or anything for that matter. In fact, it's sometimes the complete opposite due to the dedication or passion they have for what they love doing. Also more prevalent in today's society where everyone's  famous for being famous. Where talent lacks, money follows…..
                                                                               Bobby

[Sean Roe]

Good replies and info for all to be aware of.

The story on this shop continues:
http://www.bradenton.com/news/business/article53508340.html

Regarding the 10-50% down figures, 30-50% down is the norm in my area. I had a 26 year old fabrication and parts business that I recently sold and we were 50% down. The percentage was pretty normal for me, and again, this was a busy shop with cars in all stages with plenty of guys working. I spent about 5 hours there and talked to people over the course of a couple days to vet them out before I signed the contract. The thing that blew me away was that nobody who had previous issues was talking. Maybe I just have a lower tolerance for BS and being treated unprofessionally.

As I mentioned, at this point, the value is in helping raise awareness so my fellow car friends don't get bit like I did. This was not the first time I farmed out paint, body, and interior work, and it probably won't be my last, but I darn sure want to make sure it's the only time I get taken.

[Scot Minesinger]

Bobby,

In CA where 10% max down is the law it is not difficult to make it so you are not financing your customers believe me.  Plus the cost of work there is more because of this rule and labor is expensive.  It is very unusual where a law of this type intended to protect the public does not cost them more. 

["Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364]

The reality is that no shop hast to "finance" any project.  Nearly all extended time contracts where the work takes place in stages or over an extended period of time are written (and remember it has to be a written contract) providing payment at milestones of accomplishment.  Such as $ X when car is stripped, X $ when sanded, etc.  ANY legitimate shop ANYWHERE will agree to conditions like this, and if they don't, don't go there, period. Yes, thinks are more expensive in California, but there are also some of the best coach works and mechanics there as well.
Greg Surfas

[Scot Minesinger]

All,

Without down payment money a shop is financing a project, by that I mean that the labor (have to pay every week), rent (has to be paid in advance, ie. pay for Month of January on Dec 31), materials, and etc. is all paid before an owner reimburses a shop.  If for some reason the owner withholds payment, for whatever reason, then the shop is at a loss.

It is a two way street, shops rip off private citizens and vice versa.  The problem is enforcement of a written contract is a lengthy process adjudicated by people who don't know FWD from an alternator.

California is more expensive because of labor and real estate, and now a limit on down payments ( shops must finance the job).  All work being equal a car restoration in TX will be less than in CA due to these factors.  However, I agree CA has high quality skilled labor so that is good.

I run a small business with significant receipts and my clients pay anywhere from in a week (not often) to 100 days, and the average pay is about 60 days.  Consequently, I am always financing every job, as all the bills are paid before my client pays me even if it is only a week.  I pride myself on paying all my vendors in less than three days from presentation of their invoice.  If I insist on payment in a week, my clients will be pleased to pay ten percent more to an entity that allows 60 day terms.  It is very rare that businesses are not financing the job.  The ten percent down max in CA just increased the number of businesses that now finance the job. 

Written agreements seem nice but enforcement is not a great process.  A company owed me an undisputed 20k and I sued without really waiting for a bunch of bs stories about why.  Had a difficult time getting a lawyer to take such a small case including a CLC member.  Found a lawyer and after the lawsuit was delivered to the offending party, I was offered 15k to avoid a trial, which is worth it.  Then of course the lawyer took 1/3 (or 5k).  9 months after issuing my 20k invoice, I got paid 10k on this written agreement - and that is lightening fast in this litigious world today.  One of our CLC members sued over a 6 figure dispute on a Cadillac restoration and if this forum was adjudicating he would have easily won.  However because non-technical people were involved who do not know that fender skirts are not supposed to be bolted to the rear fender with 3/8" fasteners (as just one example), he lost - judgment of restoration work quality is a near impossible task for our legal system.

If you have to refer back to your written agreement, it is usually real bad.

That is why I stand by my original advice to speak to the people that will work on your car and if the owner won't let you, then run like heck.

["Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364]

Part of the legitimate cost of doing business is the "cost of money". That is where part of the profit goes. That is true for ANY business in ANY  industry. Managing money is one of the things that usually make or break a business. 
We have gotten far off the topic. There is no subsitute for the in person discussions of the shops work with previous customers. PERIOD.
Greg Surfas

[76eldo]

You need to really check out any shop that you are going to do business with.

If you visit a body shop or restoration shop that you think you want to do business with just look around to see how many cars are laying around and make a mental note or take a few photos of the shop.

Go back in a week.  If the cars are all in basically the same places and state, run like hell.

I have done business with many body shops over the years ranging from a 2 bay operation to a 25,000 square foot restoration shop.  Get referrals, talk to previous customers and if the shop won't give you 3 names of people that the did cars for in the past year or so there is something wrong.

Don't be taken in by sob stories and giving money up front in the hopes of being a good guy and getting a better deal or a better job.  If you are dropping a valuable car, that's the shop's security.  Pay for work that's invoiced with photos.  Stop by as often as possible.

I dealt with a guy in the 90's that restored my Packard.  He basically lost ownership in his own shop due to a divorce and sold his shop to an investor and stayed on to run it.  We had a barter deal on some work I did for him and a 57 Ranchero that I traded him.  He finished my car and did everything he promised even though technically he no longer owned the business.  That's a rare display of integrity.  He does a lot of Cadillac work these days and He owns the shop again with his son.

Name available by request.  Shop is in the York PA area.

Brian