Radiator Advice, '76 Eldorado Convert

[joeinbcs]

Howdy,
My low mileage (33K), trouble-free car has turned to be a bit more troublesome than I expected.
First, A/C issues...three compressors...and several phone calls to Greg Surfas later, I have cold air (thanks, Greg!).
Then the heater core exploded on the way to Austin the other day.  I hope I didn't do any damage to the engine, as I had to run the car longer than I would have liked to get to an area where only ravenous fire ants threatened life and limb.  Flat bed pickup arranged by Hagerty, and Ken Karrer fixed me up temporarily, but I'm going to try and tackle the installation of a new heater core today. 
Then, I noticed that the radiator has a small leak.  I'm considering just replacing it, and came across this on Ebay.  Just wondering if anybody has used one of these things, or has any thoughts before I buy it:  http://www.ebay.com/itm/201415585537?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
Thanks, Joe

[TJ Hopland]

Its a tough call.   Based on the price of that unit I would not expect the best quality.  Many folks really skimp on the materials to save money.  That especially goes for copper but seems to be the case for aluminum too.

A proper recore with quality materials is going to cost in the $500 range if you can even find a old school shop to do it.     A new high quality OE style copper replacement is going to be in the same ballpark.  US radiator is a solid brand that several more specialty places sell.     Popular brands like Spectra that most stores sell make both a plastic aluminum and a more expensive metal (of some sort) tank with aluminum core that comes painted or anodized black so they pretty much look stock if that is a concern.   I would trust those before a possible no name ebay option. 

All that being said currently in my 73 I am running a modern replacement aluminum plastic one that I think I paid in the low $200's for from a old time radiator shop.   I kept my leaking copper one just in case but so far I don't see any reason to go back to it.  Shop actually offered me something like $75 to buy the old one which was not an original, it was likely the tail end of made in USA stuff.   Shop guy pointed out that even that 80's or early 90's radiator was kinda skimpy in the core area.   My car is not 100% stock anyway especially when you look under the hood so I really didn't see any advantage in paying more for copper.   At first I thought the shop was nuts to say go with plastic but I got home and looked at my newer(ish) cars including my 96 Suburban with over 300k on it still running the factory plastic aluminum radiator and figured I would give it a shot.  So far I am happy.   I have also had the same shop do some recores on harder to find stuff or people that wanted original and they do good work so its not like the guy just didn't want to work. 

Those motors are pretty tough and can take some abuse so chances are decent you didn't do any damage.  If you had say a HT4100 or newer your chances go way down but in this case chances are good.

[Jeff Rosansky CLC #28373]

I see it is a 3 row. I understand many are 4- but that is just from what I have read here. More than likely it will need some sort of fabrication to get it to fit and look right. If you are having someone else do it then your low cost radiator gets quite expensive. Lastly, a radiator is a leave you stranded kind of thing. Are you comfortable Uncles radiator wont leave you out walking around the fireants?
I am always leary of ebay items that "fit" but have a "check your application first" disclaimer.
Sometimes it is worth a few extra bucks for piece of mind.
Jeff

[TJ Hopland]

The number of row thing has become kinda meaningless these days.   In the old days rows tended to be the same width and density so say the standard 3 row radiator would have had 3 1/2" rows with 3/4" spacing that totaled 1 1/2 inches thick (just made those up).   The 4 row option would have had a 4th row of the same 1/2 by 3/4 rows so a total of 2 inches thick so increased capacity.    As time goes on the designs have changed and then aftermarket often tending more to profit than quality its really hard to compare.

In my case the old OE style one was a 4 row that was 2 5/8 thick I think.  The plastic aluminum one in there now is a 3 row that is close to 3" thick.  The tube and fin density is way heavier on the aluminum one which I assume is a good thing when it comes to heat transfer. 

Here is a link to the US radiator site that talks a little about different core designs.

http://www.usradiator.com/cores

[Jeff Wilk]

Joe, give Cap-A-Radiator in Farmingdale NY a call. Yes far from you but youd be amazed at what they can do and quick too.

Jeff

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

I purchased a copper radiator for a '71 Eldo from Rock Auto, and it fitted perfectly.

Don't buy the heavy duty one unless you have the heavy duty cradle fitted to the car as it won't fit.   I found that out, so I have a spare radiator to fit to my '72 when I modify the cradle.

Bruce.

[TJ Hopland]

To add to my number of rows comment I just installed a $99 plastic aluminum one in a friends car to get him by while he figures out if the leaking one is 'correct' or not and then repaired.   I would guess the new one would be called a 1 row but the tubes are almost 2 inches wide.   I have not noticed one designed like that before but maybe just never looked that close.   I was looking inside to see what the trans cooler looked like.    I will be curious to see how this new one cools both compared to the well used original style one and then after an original style goes back in. 

[76eldo]

I have an excellent rad out of a 78 Eldorado.
If it fits a 76 it might be a good option for you.
$350 plus shipping

["Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364]

Joe,
Get yours re cored with a 4 row brass/copper core.  Anything less is useless here in "you know where".
Greg Surfas

[Scot Minesinger]

This hobby is plagued with crappy parts unfortunately, and a good radiator for that car is $500, probably best to have it re-cored.  TX probably is set up to perform good work as cooling is so important.  Make sure it is a reputable shop with great references.  On parts shop quality first, price second, not all are created equal.

Low mileage cars have their own troubles and you should go thru the car entirely as otherwise you could be troubled frequently.  I bought a 35k mile 1970 SDV and just went thru it completely, as it even had the original radiator hoses, belts, plugs and etc.  The only things that were not original were tires, battery, radiator fluid, engine oil, air in tires, gasoline, and fuel filter (former owner messed up fuel lines-that is how I know).  All rubber (because rubber fails with age, use and heat cycles) parts were replaced plus other service/precautionary items such as but not limited to:

Front suspension bushings, all rubber brake hoses, rear suspension bushings, brake cylinders/pistons, master brake cylinder, grommets, all heater/radiator hoses, all vacuum hoses, vacuum actuators for climate control and cruise.  Replaced the 3 refrigeration rubber hoses (I have the crimp tool and can re-use the fittings with new hose material) Also had to make the car weather tight with all new door and trunk rubber plus remove and reseal back window.  Then changed timing chain, front engine seals, oil pan seal and rear main oil seal.  Also, resealed trans, serviced trans and serviced rear diff.  Replaced all fuel lines from car to tank, rubber and steel.  dropped tank, checked and replaced sender.  The radiator and water pump were bad had to replace them too (yes, before timing chain of course).  Replaced all steel brake lines.  The steel brake and fuel lines can rust from inside (you should see the rust particles when emptied it out).  Also installed new exhaust system and changed car over to r134. 

May have left some things I did off this list, just trying to make it an enjoyable trouble free driver.  Paint and top are original.

This sounds like a lot, but all the parts were just about 4k and did all of the work myself, except for the alignment.

[bcroe]

For decades I would get 4 row radiators from the local shops, a new core when
it was needed.  There was always a way to fit a 4 row, even if the car didn't
come with one. 

Now the locals only deal with imported junk.  After getting fed up with one,
I changed to what was a nearly custom built first quality radiator, with a
price around $600.  That's life, still cheaper than a new car.  Bruce Roe

[bcroe]

This hobby is plagued with crappy parts unfortunately, and a good radiator for that car is $500, probably best to have it re-cored.  TX probably is set up to perform good work as cooling is so important.  Make sure it is a reputable shop with great references.  On parts shop quality first, price second, not all are created equal.

Low mileage cars have their own troubles and you should go thru the car entirely as otherwise you could be troubled frequently.  I bought a 35k mile 1970 SDV and just went thru it completely, as it even had the original radiator hoses, belts, plugs and etc.  The only things that were not original were tires, battery, radiator fluid, engine oil, air in tires, gasoline, and fuel filter (former owner messed up fuel lines-that is how I know).  All rubber (because rubber fails with age, use and heat cycles) parts were replaced plus other service/precautionary items such as but not limited to:

Front suspension bushings, all rubber brake hoses, rear suspension bushings, brake cylinders/pistons, master brake cylinder, grommets, all heater/radiator hoses, all vacuum hoses, vacuum actuators for climate control and cruise.  Replaced the 3 refrigeration rubber hoses (I have the crimp tool and can re-use the fittings with new hose material) Also had to make the car weather tight with all new door and trunk rubber plus remove and reseal back window.  Then changed timing chain, front engine seals, oil pan seal and rear main oil seal.  Also, resealed trans, serviced trans and serviced rear diff.  Replaced all fuel lines from car to tank, rubber and steel.  dropped tank, checked and replaced sender.  The radiator and water pump were bad had to replace them too (yes, before timing chain of course).  Replaced all steel brake lines.  The steel brake and fuel lines can rust from inside (you should see the rust particles when emptied it out).  Also installed new exhaust system and changed car over to r134. 

May have left some things I did off this list, just trying to make it an enjoyable trouble free driver.  Paint and top are original.

This sounds like a lot, but all the parts were just about 4k and did all of the work myself, except for the alignment. 

That's a good list, I replace exhaust, brake lines, and other stuff with stainless
steel, so I won't be doing it again ever.  And I do alignment.  Bruce Roe

[Evan Wojtkiewicz]

When my fan gouged my original radiator to the point of leaking, I ordered the Desert Cooler from OPGI (it's made by US Radiator). Overall, I'm satisfied with it. Despite being thicker, it's performance equals but doesn't beat the old one. Another note: be extra careful when handling it as the fins are thinner and more delicate than on the original unit.

Fun fact: I'm the reason that the OPGI website now explicitly specifies that the cap is sold separately.

[Scot Minesinger]

Bruce,

You are a better mechanic than me, I have such trouble getting a good seal and bending the stainless brake lines, stainless fuel lines, and exhaust.  The new non stainless (listed as steel) fuel and break lines are not steel through and through like original, they are lined with a brass compound of some sort that keeps it from rusting from inside out. 

I have driven my red 1970 DVC 38k miles in ten years and since it is driven only in nice weather save that occasional summer afternoon thunderstorm, the aluminized steel exhaust system (I powder coat the clamps and hangers with clear) still looks new.  Same with fuel and brake lines.  I would rather use stainless but sometimes I get a leak at the flare nut and it is more difficult for me to work with in bending and etc.

In my club I see break downs because of 40 and 50 year old rubber part failures that cost $7 and should have been replaced a long time ago.  Cannot deal with a preventable failure.

As you advocate, the entire low mileage older car needs to be gone thru rather than suffering from bad performance and chronic failures.

[bcroe]

Bruce,

You are a better mechanic than me, I have such trouble getting a good seal and bending the stainless brake lines, stainless fuel lines, and exhaust.  The new non stainless (listed as steel) fuel and break lines are not steel through and through like original, they are lined with a brass compound of some sort that keeps it from rusting from inside out. 

I have driven my red 1970 DVC 38k miles in ten years and since it is driven only in nice weather save that occasional summer afternoon thunderstorm, the aluminized steel exhaust system (I powder coat the clamps and hangers with clear) still looks new.  Same with fuel and brake lines.  I would rather use stainless but sometimes I get a leak at the flare nut and it is more difficult for me to work with in bending and etc.

In my club I see break downs because of 40 and 50 year old rubber part failures that cost $7 and should have been replaced a long time ago.  Cannot deal with a preventable failure.

As you advocate, the entire low mileage older car needs to be gone thru rather than suffering from bad performance and chronic failures.

I used to struggle with SS brake lines, but now days have changed over to the
copper nickel alloy lines with alloy fittings, a piece of cake.  I certainly cannot
bend 304 SS exhaust pipes, but I buy pre bent U sections and slice them into
the angles I need.  Butt weld it all together with my MIG, and its an ugly system
that only I will see, performs much better than the original, and will outlast the
car and me.  Nearly 3 decades ago I built one for my 79 Toro which definitely
helped performance.  When the Toro was scrapped I put the 2.5" SS system on
my 79 Eldo.  More recently the Eldo needed a 3" system for a 403 engine.  The
2.5" SS was sold to another 79 Toro owner, who is driving it today and
appreciates the upgrade.  Bruce Roe

[joeinbcs]

Thanks for all the great advice...I'm going to see if the a local radiator shop I've used in the past can re-core the radiator in the car.
As for the heater core, it was easier than I expected.  Even someone with pretty modest mechanical skills can do this.  I did have one hang up.  The manual, and everything else I read about the operation stated that there were four screws/nuts holding the heater box to the firewall.  This is not correct.  There are actually five.  I struggled to get the box for an hour at least before I found the final screw, accessible from under the dash on the far right side of the box.
Otherwise, it was straightforward.  With the FSM and Gerald Loidl's guide, it was tedious, but not difficult.
The worst part was the mess the antifreeze made.  I had to tear out all the carpet and all the factory insulation, which was pretty well soaked.  Oh, well...once I clean it up and Dynamat it, it will probably be better than new.  And, I already had a new carpet set, and was planning to replace the somewhat faded original.

[Scot Minesinger]

I always blow out the heater core from under the hood with compressed air, then it is dry with no spills.  Hind sight is so clear at 20/20.  Now you are an expert.  I changed a heater core on 1972 Eldorado and same tedious not difficult deal, except removing defrost vents was a pain.  The 1965-1970 Cadillacs are real easy because heater core, evap and all are done from engine bay. 

The evaporator in a 76 Cadillac (I think RWD only) requires that the hood hinge on passenger side be removed to get casing out, so it is an in place replacement job.  The Eldorado has the engine forward of the firewall due to space for trans so you can remove casing without removing hood hinge (at least on a 72 Eldorado anyway).

[TJ Hopland]

FWIW I have been driving my friends car that I just put the 'cheap' radiator in and after it got the air worked out if it the temp gauge is now holding steady at like 1/8.   It moved around a bit while I assume the air was working its way out so I know I didn't knock the wire off.   I could see corrosion around the tubes in the old one but it didn't look that bad.  When running there was still a fat stream coming out of the tubes so the flow appeared to still be decent but the gauge would climb both sitting in traffic and doing 60 on the highway on only moderately warm days.   Hot day it would get in the 3/4 range.   Will find out next week how it does in the hot with the new radiator.   

I'm not saying a new plastic aluminum radiator is the way to go or that if when we get the original done with a quality core its not going to cool as well or better than the aluminum one, I'm just saying it seems to be working well so it may be an option to explore if originality is not your top priority at the moment.   Your mileage may vary.    For this car and owner he does like original but he also wanted to have it not leaking so he could drive it over the holiday weekend.   

["Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364]

TJ,
The "cheapie" Aluminum radiators might work up there in the land of 100 lakes, but I have two (one from a 76 Coupe and one from a 72 Eldo) sitting outside in the yard that tells me they don't work here in Southern Texas, or essentially anywhere the design temperature is above 90 degrees F (your climatic region).
Greg Surfas