Value of a 1929 7 passenger touring Cadillac

[RSS1]

I have the opportunity to buy a 1929 Cadillac touring  341B .  Body seems to be good, has been in a storage unit for the the last  10+ years.  Engine has the heads off, radiator off,floor boards in the front may be somewhere,  parts may all be there.   Cannot see any rust. Was a new top- looks very good.
   Did run  years and years ago for a parade car.
Was Harvey House  guest vehicle and was in some movies!   the story goes!.
I have no idea what to offer as a starting bid?  HELP   please.  Any thoughts on what a complete engine rebuild might run.
I have rebuilt many Brit cars and am knowledgeable in those cars, but not this BEAUTIFUL Cadillac!!!!
Thanks for ANY  Help
Ron

[TMoore - NTCLC]

Hi Ron -

I honestly cannot help much on valuation, but I am sure some of the guys more familiar with this era will be able to chime in soon. 

As a backstory - I helped a family liquidate an estate that included a 1925 V63 7 pass. Touring car.  The car had a "hobbyist" restoration in the 1970's, and had been in storage since the early 1980's.  I spent a couple of weekends draining the fuel, cleaning out the lines, changing all the fluids, new battery, etc.  and was able to get the car running (firing on 7 cylinders) and stopping.  Car was very straight, no rust, paint (1970s lacquer) was in decent shape but crazing;  leather seats and the top and side curtains were nice.  I was able to sell the car to another club member for 20K (his requirement was that it could be loaded onto a trailer under its own power).   He spent a bunch of money on new paint, tires, nickel polishing, and likely some mechanical work as well, BUT, he won 1st place in category during an inter-regional meet within a few months of buying the car, so he was ecstatic with his purchase.  He actually drives the car on occasion, and I have seen him driving along at a pretty good clip.

Based on your description, I suspect the car you are looking at should be priced MUCH lower - not knowing mechanical condition (especially engine) will have a YUGE impact on price - Harvey House and movie association would not impact price in my opinion.

Beautiful car - I hope it works out for you.

[RSS1]

Thanks for the input............. Could be the bottomless  black hole in my garage where everything  seems to go at some time.......................   

[dochawk]

  Engine has the heads off, radiator off,floor boards in the front may be somewhere,  parts may all be there.  

Missing parts is a serious problem.  Really serious.

Some exist, but you're looking at having them custom made--and hoping you custom make the right thing . . .

And the '29 is the first year for the synchronized transmission.  Jus seems less, well, sporting

[m-mman]

I bought a 1929 Town Sedan two years ago. It has a 70s restoration with an excellent original interior.  (the 70s restorer fixed and painted it, but did not damage it)  It seemingly was parked about 1975 or so.
It is a nice clean shinny car the seller had just replaced the tires (the 1970s tires were rotten) and I paid $25,000.

The engine (and everything else) was complete and completely assembled. Being familiar with 50s -70s cars I foolishly assumed that I could 'easily' get it running. WRONG!!!! 

It had several stuck valves(!)    Then the heads were stuck on the studs . . . . 


So I pulled the motor and sent it to a guy who knows how to work on a Full Classic engine. I hope to someday tour with it so I told him to fix it correctly. 
Eventually he had to remove the cylinders from the crankcase, pull the pistons out of the cylinders and then drive the heads off the studs from the bottom.  :

Beyond all the typical stuff he also did the little things like repouring the babbit bearings and installed new rollers and pins on the lifters (YEAH, roller lifters in 1929)

To turn and polish the crank you must remove the counterweights from the crankshaft. Because of the limitations of 1920s casting technology, The cutting edge and unique Cadillac counterbalanced V-8 crankshaft has the counter weights on the crank BOLTED in place and then the retaining nut is tack welded in place. You  have to cut the welds remove the nuts and weights, then turn & polish the crank then rebolt and reweld the nuts.  This is nothing I could do in my garage!

Original estimate $7,000 . . . Final bill $14,000 . . . FYI I have done all the R&R work.
Clutch was $500
Radiator is currently out with a $2,000 estimate.
The thermostat repair was $250 (Thankfully I had a core or it would have been another $300)
The pot metal distributor was cracked and shattered upon removal. Rebuild with reproduction parts $1,500

EVERYTHING on these cars are UNOBTAINABLE! the 1920s pot metal castings decay and shatter when you disassemble them.
There are NO cheap parts or cheap ways to do things. (back in the 1950s there were cheap parts and cheap alternatives, today no.)
If you think you know 1920s cars because you have had experience with Ford Models As . . . These are a long way from a Model A.

These cars are NOT for beginners or people who have a tight budget or people who dont enjoy figuring out how the dumb things work. (they are not built like a 50s car and the service information is scant) 

And honestly you would not want to do things cheaply. It is a Full Classic 1920s Cadillac! But like everything else it too has a top value
I know I am getting buried in my project (an open car would bring more on a sale) but it aint supposed to be about profit is it?
When you see Full Classic Cads sell for $100,000+ you can bet the owner LOST money on the project. 

My thoughts on final value:
1. The movie or Harvey House stuff makes for an interesting story but adds no value.
2. It is a 7 pass touring . . . it is NOT a sport phaeton.   

To Dochawk - The syncro trans is a big blessing!!! You forgot that these cars also have mechanical brakes! (talk about 'sporting') You MUST downshift regularly if you intend to actually stop the thing. Anything that helps you slow it down is something you want. 

[Chas]

Ron......I'm not a "classic" Cadillac guy, but just thought I would add my two cents as far as my feeling on on provenance: I don't care if the car was owned by the Pope in Rome, I'm only gonna pay for the current condition.

[chrisntam]

Mr. Crabtree,

Thanks for telling it like it is.  Very interesting perspective.   FWIW, I'm upside down on my '70, but I don't care and I am enjoying it.

chris.

[m-mman]

Thanks chrisntam,
The bigger they are the harder they fall? With a 60s-70s Car you might get a few thousand dollars upside down.

I have learned that when dealing with the 'big' cars, you just move the decimal point over to the right. Instead of losing maybe $3000 - $5000 between the restoration costs and the sale you might lose $30,000 to $50,000. on really high dollar cars (Duesenburgs?) you might lose $100,000 to $300,000 between the restoration and the final sale.

It is all just a matter of how much you want to pay to play. You just have to remember you are doing it for enjoyment. 

[dochawk]

To Dochawk - The syncro trans is a big blessing!!! You forgot that these cars also have mechanical brakes! (talk about 'sporting') You MUST downshift regularly if you intend to actually stop the thing. Anything that helps you slow it down is something you want. 

For a daily driver, sure.

But when I got to spend all that time behind the wheel of a '27, it was part of the "quaintness", I suppose, and is charm.

And the manual spark advance, after I helped get that working, letting it drop speed that much lower in gear. 

Unfortunately, we didn't get the manual fuel flow control going . . .

Maybe its the same quirk that gets me speculating about putting a T-56 manual into my Eldorado Touring Coupe, or a Northstar into my Miata . . .

But, seriously, if I my means put me in a position to get one of these, I definitely want the unsynchronized, giving me a '28 cutoff, and the balanced engine, so at least a '24.

[Joe Konarowski]

The pot metal on a Cadillac is no different than any other 20s car as they all had pot metal. I always see people posting suppliers of specialty cars. But these suppliers are very very expensive and yes the work as a rule is superb. The thing is there are suppliers out there that do just as good work for a lot less that do not specialize in a single brand of car. I just got a new windshield riser assembly for my 30 for $225. with exchange of my old one. Just bolt it in finished. Price that around and see the difference in price. Having Mike make a new distributer housing at the present time. Sunny and Jeffery 16 Cyl restorers out of Kansas also use Mike Butters. You do not always have to go to the most expensive guy to get top work.
  The Cadillac at the CCCA 16Cyl gathering winter event in Detroit that took top honors had all the castings done by Mike butters also.
  As for an engine build $1,000 $1,500 per cyl. so under $12000. and that should last you many years of service with proper care and operation.
The 30 coupe total basket case I have just finished was disassembled in the mid 60s and I am the third person that owned it in a parts condition. I never regretted taking on this project and enjoyed all the trips to swap meets hunting parts and leads plus all the weekends in the garage unwinding.
For a 29 touring if the price is right and your description of the body I myself would not think twice. I would be clearing a spot in my shop for it.