1941 60 Special wood sills

[E.Johnson]

This is a follow-up to a 1941 60 Special restoration thread last updated by its author, Paul Phillips, about six years ago.  I posted a reply on the thread, not realizing it would likely not be read because of the amount of time since its last post.  So, here it is, as a new question.  (Yes, I'm fairly new at this...)

I bought a 1941 60 Special over a year ago and have been working on it ever since.  It was billed as an "excellent driver" but was far from that.

Has anyone commissioned a "remanufacture" of the wood sills (between the central part of the body and the frame), and if so, are any available?  If not, does anyone have drawings or templates for the wood sills Paul fabricated or had fabricated?  If so, I would be interested in obtaining a copy of them.  I don't know yet that the sills in my car will need to be replaced, but given the state of neglect I've found in the rest of the car I would not be surprised, and it would be great to have new sills or plans or templates from which to build a new set of sills.

What wood was used for the sills?

Thank you in advance for your reply.

Eric Johnson

[Quentin Hall]

Luckily the wood on my 39 Sixty Special is good. I have heard that the body needs to be lifted off the frame to remove and replace them. That would sound like a huge undertaking so I would do a full inspection prior. I do recall a thread pertaining to the fabrication of the sills. Someone had templates. Brad Ipsen will know. I know that one of my coach builder mates uses Ash. I also know it’s incredibly expensive. I’m sure any hardwood could be used. It is structural.

[Abe Lugo]

Maybe contact house or tops in Oregon https://houseoftops.com/
They seem to make wood parts for a lot different makes and models.
My wife’s old Plymouth needed the wood roof insert and sills also.  But we let that project go before getting the new Plymouth. 
Either way that may be able to help or point you in the right direction. 

The other way is to pull what you have and have them copies by a local carpenter/craftsman. You would probably just need to order the correct wood.

Abe Lugo

[Jeff Hansen]

Eric,

I have been entrusted with a copy of the original blueprints that are available to send to for you to copy at your cost.  You return my copy to me once your copy is made.  Paul Phillips also had digital copies made of those same prints.  So you can get copies in the format of your choice: hard copy or digital.

All that is asked in return for either format is a donation to the Cadillac & LaSalle Club Museum and Research Center.   I'll alert Paul that you are interested in some form of copy of the blueprints (he remains an active club member, just not as active on this forum).  You decide which you prefer.

Hope this helps you.
Jeff

[Paul Phillips]

Eric
Sorry I missed your previous post, definitely has been a while since that was an active thread.  Thanks to Jeff for the heads up.  It's great to hear that someone else is working to preserve another 60S.

I do not believe there is a commercial producer of these parts, there is just too small of a demand.  I am an amateur woodworker, and decided it was within my capability to reproduce the parts.  I had to learn a few skills, and had to remake a couple of the more complex contoured parts to get things right, but the results were very satisfying.  CLC, CCCA, AACA and Concours judges have all been satisfied with the results.

As Jeff indicated, plans are available for use in recreating the wood.  Jeff is the keeper of the original full size blue line prints, and I did a full size scan of these same prints, digitally preserving them.  I found the digital versions helpful, as I was able to make extra prints to create various routing guides and profile templates.  There are 4 individual pieces to be made for each side, for the most part, right & left are mirror images.

Replacing the sills is the right thing to do, as the decay in both the wood and floorpan metal is hidden until it becomes severe (metal rusts from wood-up and wood rots from floor-down).  Factory wood was oak, but it was not single slab pieces.  They were material-efficient, and laminated smaller pieces together.  I chose to recreate the sills in ash, and selected stock (8/4) that let each specific piece be made w/o glue-ups, with the exception of the step plate supports under the fender extension, and the backer/supports for the rocker trim.  These are too thick to easily source, and have a lesser structural role anyway.

Also to note - Quentin is correct that the body needs to be lifted and also temporary internal support needs to be fabricated for the body before removing the existing sills.  I can explain this further if desired, but trying not to get too long on this post.

Please let Jeff or I know on the plans.  I am happy to answer specific questions & provide photos, if desired.

Paul

[E.Johnson]

Thank you, Quentin, Abe, Jeff, and Paul, for your replies.

I don't know yet if or when I would be relacing the sills in my car.  But Paul's comments make sense to me -- it would be better to replace them if there is any doubt as to their condition.

I have some woodworking skills (not expert by any means) and may attempt to make new sills myself.  I'd be interested in the digital versions of the sill plans or drawings, and would be happy to make a donation (suggested amount?) in return for them.  I'm also interested in any guidance you have, Paul, on the making of the sills, the internal bracing of the body required, and the removal and replacement of the sills.  Again, I'm not certain I will need to do this, but I'd rather have the information I would need for the job sooner rather than later.

I'm not sure how to proceed from here.  My postal and email addresses are in the CLC directory (I'm in Colorado, and am the only Eric Johnson listed in that state).  Paul especially, or Jeff or Abe or Quentin, if you wish -- please reply either to this post or to my email address with further recommendations on how to proceed.  Paul, if I need to provide or pay for some digital media (e.g., a flash drive) needed for the digital files, I am happy to do that (assuming they are too big for email).  If I need to make some donation to the CLC Museum before you would supply anything, please let me know.

Thank you again.

Eric Johnson

[Paul Phillips]

Eric
I will provide you a link to download the files, just confirm with a PM when you have made the donation to the CLCMRC. Go to http://www.cadillaclasallemuseum.org/ and click the Donate button in the left side menu. I think Barry was suggesting $100.  If you by chance have matching giving thru Benevity or another corporate portal, be do it thru that site, so the museum can get the extra benefit.

I will be happy to exchange files & photos, as well as do phone conversation about the process of replacing the sills. We can work that out as we go. If you have a table saw, bandsaw & router, along with reasonable skill in using these tools, you can do the woodworking. You will need to have a rotisserie & be able to do welding & metal fabrication, or have access to someone who can, in order to stabilize the body while you replace the sills.

The way the car was originally built is important to understanding replacement. In short terms, the finished main wood sills were laid on the assembly bench, located by some fixtures.  Next, the floor pan metal, with the horizontal bracing under the front seat, were laid on top of the sills and joined with ‘dozens’ of short nails. In several locations, wood screws were used to make a more robust connection of the metal to wood.  Various metal elements were then welded to this base to form the cowl, firewall, B pillars and C pillar sections. When trying to disassemble, you will find nails where you cannot access the dads, because the vertical elements of the body are welded over the heads. 

This is a brief explanation, but hopefully gives you an idea of what to expect.

Paul