Woodruff key removal 1966 crankshaft

[Chuck Swanson]

Replacing timing chain on my '66.  Shop manual says to pull the woodruff key then remove the crankshaft sprocket.  Any idea on how to pull the woodruff key?  Tips?  thanks, Chuck

["Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364]

Chuck,
First of all that's a pretty good looking cam gear.  Sort of goes against the "Urban Myth" that they all need to be replaced immediately.
If my memory serves me right I pulled my key by tapping down on one end with a brass drift.  I do believe that the crank gear will come off over the key however, but that is just my memory and is true of the 472/500's.
Greg Surfas

[fishnjim]

Are they talking about the forward harmonic balancer or timing gear key?   
If the timing gear, I'd say that's one of many manual errors.   The key is in the groove of the gear, usually not exposed.   You have to remove the gear first to expose/access the key, not vice versa.   Sometimes they fall out, sometimes, they get distorted/wedged tight and you have to tap out with a punch, as stated.   If you try to punch key out backward, you'll damage the seal.  If it's not a square key, it won't come out like that.  So makes no sense.   
A gear puller or gently walk out from behind with a small pry bar maybe needed.   Spray a little blaster first and it might just come off by hand.

[Chuck Swanson]

Thanks both!  Agree Greg, it's in nice shape.  Some other pluses from removing cover and replacing timing chain, distributor was frozen, but Mouse Milk freed it with some vice grips   Also one water pump bolt broke, so better now than when I need to ever replace pump again.  I have an NOS '66 timing chain cover, so will use that and maybe have my machine shop take out the rest of bolt in old cover, as it is stick up an 1/8".  Low mileage on this engine, and looks good inside, no sludge, and engine oil although old, has absolutely no shards/shavings, pieces in it.  Also have a new oil pump, new fuel pump, and new distributor.

Jim, you can see the woodruff key in the picture.  The bottom crankshaft sprocket, around 10 o'clock.  It sticks out around an 1/8 of an inch.  Won't pull off by hand, but letting soak overnight. 

Also, to line up the crankshaft mark, should I hook up battery and bump the crankshaft with the ignition key, or turn with a bolt?
Chuck

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

Doesn't the gear and the Harmonic Balancer use the same key?

I have never found the need to remove them when changing the bottom gear.

Bruce.

[Chuck Swanson]

Yes Bruce, same key.

Quick update:  Put the chain back on since I didn't move or do anything yet.  Hooked up the air to cylinder 1, and by hand moved the crank by putting a '66 bumper bolt in center of crank with 4 thick bumper washers and lined up the marks on the sprockets.  Removed the old chain again and camshaft sprocket.

Now the open question still is how to remove lower crank sprocket.  I saw videos of others using a puller on non Cadillac engines, but will wait for that route for now.  Chuck

[fishnjim]

Terminology 101: That should be a "square" key not a "woodruff".   Woodruff has a round bottom for a round slot and won't slide out.
I checked my spare crankshaft laying on the work bench and it's a long square key.   I still think you'll be able to get the gear off without pulling the pin.  Soak it good.  Otherwise, the key would not still be stuck in my old shaft, that the shop tore the gear and harmonic off.

[Chuck Swanson]

Terminology 101: That should be a "square" key not a "woodruff".   Woodruff has a round bottom for a round slot and won't slide out.
I checked my spare crankshaft laying on the work bench and it's a long square key.   I still think you'll be able to get the gear off without pulling the pin.  Soak it good.  Otherwise, the key would not still be stuck in my old shaft, that the shop tore the gear and harmonic off.

Jim thanks for the reply.  Shop manual says "woodruff", so was just quoting.  They make it seem easy    Yes, was leaning towards letting it soak more and possibly gently using a 3-jaw puller.  Will work on the window motors in the interim. 

Also, here of some pics of the Kent Moore tool.  A life saver...worth the cost when I bought a couple of years ago.  Harmonic balancer cam off great with tool.  Had to use some muscle, but once started, piece of cake.  My kit was missing the 4 bolts, but found some that worked.  Did not have to remove oil pan per shop manual, as studs cam right out. You can also see the air hose from compressor hooked up to #1, hopefully helps others.  Last pic, markings lined up.

Thanks, Chuck

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

That is the correct way to remove the Harmonic Balancer, but the three-leg puller is required to remove the Chain Gear.   A 2 leg one will do, but the three leg is more stable.

Bruce.

[Chuck Swanson]

Tried 4 different 3 jaw pullers, but none work as it is too tight an area to get one in with the oil pan on, even tried the expensive ones, same thing.  Even ground down legs on one of the pullers as most are too thick (only 1/4" clearance in back), but no go.  Has anyone here actually removed the gear off of the crank on a 429 that can comment on specifics, puller used, install steps, bypassed woodruff key removal stated in shop manual, etc..  Only option I can see is a two jaw puller, or remove the oil pan, which don't really want to do as you have to take off a lot to drop the pan.

I have removed on Mopars, Chevys, etc, so not the first time working on engine related tasks/timing chains, but not sure on this one. 

Also, has anyone just replaced the camshaft gear, which is the plastic one that all warn about, and left the original crank gear alone.  Was looking at that option too, since my crank gear looks fine, and should work fine with the new Cloyes chain and cam gear.

Thanks, Chuck

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

If all else fails, use the Slide Hammer.   That is what they are made for.

But, I know there is a special tool that is made for removing those gears, but I can't afford one.

Bruce.

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

Or, you could make up a tool like this one.

Sorry about the picture quality, but you get the idea.

Bruce.

[Chuck Swanson]

Nice, yes that is exactly what is needed   Probably some Kent Moore tool.  Thanks!

[Chuck Swanson]

Update:  Came right off with little effort with this https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002SRFP8
However, I had to grind the jaw legs down to 1/4" to fit behind the crank gear. Now how to put new Cloyes crank gear on??   Seen some videos on heating up gear to 500 in a toaster oven, and I have an old spare oven...after heating, use welding gloves to push on the crank. 

Just saw this though and looks like a better method https://www.summitracing.com/parts/CCA-4789

Also, one other question...the cam bolts don't go on easy after test fit with old crank gear.  I had a little wiggle room with the old chain as it was slightly loose.  Now the new Cloyes is nice and tight.  I looked with flashlight and the hole is off by like 1/32 of an inch.  When I have the new chain and gears on, should I just rotate crank a hair counterclockwise with the bolt in crank...that is all I need to line up the holes.  Thanks Chuck

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

G'day Chuck,

Rotating the crank a bit is not a problem when fitting a tight chain, but always re-align the dots when the chain is on, just to check.

I have been known to pull the cam out a bit, with the gear attached, the chain and Crank gear hanging, and whilst carefully installing the crank gear with a drift, and lots of little taps with a hammer, let everything "slide" rearwards as the gear slips into place.

BUT, sometimes this cannot be done as the Cam is usually held in place by a flange and bolts under the cam gear.

Bruce.

PS.   I even made up a two-fingered drift that had the fingers sitting parallel with the crank snout, to that the tapping would drive the gear back on square.

[Chuck Swanson]

Thanks!  Actually when I put the new Cloyes crank gear on (finally installed with a harmonic balancer install tool), the holes for the cam gear lined right up!  Torqued cam gear bolts to specs and all done.  I'll post a video on my 65-66 Facebook page below later this week.  Chuck

["Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364]

Chuck,
I don't see the mark on the cam gear that is supposed to line up with the crank gear.
Greg Surfas

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

It is there Greg.

Just got to look harder, and easier when the picture is enlarged.

Bruce.

[Chuck Swanson]

Yes, sorry bad lighting, but I circled