Motor won't turn off -- 1969 Deville -- is it lock cylinder or ignition switch?

[Prairieman]

I am CLC member # 19928, since year 2000 with the same 1969 Deville convertible

I have a problem with the tilt column ignition switching  Last night, I moved the car and returned the key to the OFF position and it didn't stop the engine, or the accessories/idiot lights.  I pulled the coil wire to shut off the engine and got a big shock!  Then I noticed that the idiot lights and fan were still on, so I then disconnected a battery terminal.

Earlier this year, I turned the switch to engage the starter, and it spun the starter, even after I returned the key to the OFF and ACC indents.

QUESTION:  Is this a key tumbler (lock cylinder) or an ignition switch (mounted lower on steering column) problem?

Admittedly, the old square GM key is worn, but it still rotates the tumbler from ACC to OFF to IGN and then STARTER

[TJ Hopland]

Assuming the 69 wasn't much different than the 70's and 80's the actual electrical part of the switch is on the right side of the column just under the dash.   The only part of the operation that is sprung is the start position and the spring is in the electrical part of the switch.  The switch is operated by a rod linkage.   At the key its a rack and pinion setup.    For the tilt there is a cam slot sort of a thing. 

I believe the rack and cam are made of a somewhat brittle casting so its not that uncommon to end up with those parts breaking.   Its possible for them to break in such a way that it can push but not pull the switch so it could have broke last time you shut it off. 

I don't know how much extra wire Cadillac was giving you in 69 but I had a 70's truck that had linkage issues.  My quick fix was to unbolt the switch off the side of the column and let it hang down where I could use a screwdriver to operate the switch.   I meant to fix it but it ended up being that way till the truck died from other issues.   Its a slide action and you can feel the detents of the various positions.

Is your steering wheel tilt still nice and tight?  If its got some wobble to it that too can cause excess wear and movement in the linkage.   Its not a real common issue unless the driver tends to use the wheel as a handle to get in and out.  Its more common on trucks where you often need to pull yourself up and in. 

[chrisntam]

Firstly, I'm not an expert, but I have a '70, this is what I'd do.

Remove the lower dash cover so you can see the ignition switch.  Look for a rod that pushes and pulls the switch, don't know where it connects to the switch (if it's internal to the column or not).  Once you find the rod (or connection to the switch), have someone move the key part to run, start and off (battery disconnected).  Watch the rod.  Is it moving as expected?  If it is, I'd replace the ignition switch.  If it's not moving as expected then you'll have to get into the column.

My understanding is that replacing the switch is a lot easier than getting into the column.  Let's hope it's the switch.

I haven't been in the column, so I don't know too much about that.  If the problem is in the column, let us know and others can chime in.  As always, the Factory Service Manual is your friend.

That's what I'd do.

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

Had a similar thing happen to a friends' '71, and it turned out to be the gear at the end od the ignition switch, the key locking part that had a tooth break off, which stopped the rack that operates the pushrod to the electric switch from operating.

His car was stuck with the steering lock on, and no amount of wiggling of the key would work.

The first picture shows what it is supposed to look like, and the second picture shows the offending gear with two missing teeth, and one that was found in the column, and the centre gear is missing a tooth on the end, and the right gear is the good one that replaced the broken one.

It is not a difficult job to do, but you will need a wheel remover, and a tool for removing and replacing the "C" clip.

It is easier to take the column out of the car and support it in the vice, using long bolts as shown.

Bruce.

PS.   The Shop Manual is invaluable in showing the correct steps.

PPS.  And take pictures, as they do become a reference point when putting things back together.

PPPS.   New gears are available , especially on the Corvette websites.

[TJ Hopland]

In Bruce's 2nd photo of the 3 gears and the one has the shaft that shaft is what hooks to the back of the lock cylinder.   In the first photo you can see the rack below the gear.   That rack has a rod coming out of the end of it with a hook on the end where the pivot point is for the tilting.   That hook engages another casting with a slot that also has a rod.  That rod has a hook in the end of it that engages the switch. 

I didn't remember those gears being plastic but its been a while since I have been into one or maybe there was aftermarket ones that were metal?   What broke on my truck was the slotted casting to accommodate the tilt.   Back when mine broke that was a dealer only item and there was some significant hassle in fitting the new part is how mine ended up just hanging from the wires.   I think mine had been cracked for a wile because for a while I had to tilt the wheel a certain way to get it to start.  Built in security?   

[Prairieman]

Thanks to all that have replied.   Here is an update...

A new ignition switch is inexpensive.  $ 17 at the local auto parts store.  I just installed it on the lower part of the column.  Yes, a rod from the key tumbler moves forward and backward as the key is turned from ACC, LOCK, OFF, RUN and STARTER.  Installing the ignition switch, the mount bolt holes are elongated, so I moved the switch to each end of the slots to observe the motion of the rod affecting the switch, as I turned the key through the positions.  A position in the middle was best.

So, I think that the rod is moving the lower column switch properly. 

I connected the battery with the ignition key in the LOCK position.  Sadly, I see that the idiot lights are illuminated.  So, the new lower column switch was no fix.

Should I change out the tumbler next?  If so, where can I source or rent a tool for removing and replacing the C-clip?

I have a tilt column.  Where exactly is the white plastic gear shown in the photo?  And is the plastic gear needing replacement if my rod to the lower column switch is moving forward and backward?

["Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364]

It sounds like there is a bit more adjustment in store. Disconnect the battery and turn the key to the start position. Now adjust the switch using an ohm meter across the start terminals until they make contact. Lock the switch in this position. Release the key connect the battery and see how that is.
Greg Surfas

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

The white plastic bit is the horn contact holder.

The tool I made is out of a piece of scrap steel, suitably bent, and the bolt serves two purposes.

Firstly it goes into the column to replicate the "tele" operation of the column, and locks it in position, and the nut on the top, creates the pressure to allow the removal and replacement of the "C" clip.   Without the long bolt locking the shaft, it just flops around, in and out, and once the "C" clip is removed, and the bolt loosened, the top part of the shaft can be removed.   The "C" clip stops the steering wheel from pulling completely out.

I forgot to mention that to be able to move my mates' car, I had to undo the Ignition Switch (Electrical bit) and operate the switch with a small screw driver that fitted in the hole.   Then I had to undo the gear selector at the firewall, then with a pair of vice grips, pull down on the Ignition Rod and waddling the key, pull the steering wheel locking pin clear so the wheel could be turned.

Once that was done, we could start the car, using the screw driver in the switch, and to move the car, operate the dear selector by reaching down into the engine bay and manually operate the gear shift rod.

Took two people to do it as the driver had to be in the car, operating the foot brake, whilst I was doing the gear change.   Had to get out a number of times to select Reverse, then Drive to position the car before it was in a position to start the repairs.

[chrisntam]

From the ‘70 FSM...

[Cadillac Fleetwood]

The idiot lights are supposed to come on as a "bulb check" in the "ON" position.  I think the switch is not properly adjusted. Before you go digging into the column, try the adjustment procedure outlined in the 1969 Cadillac FSM:

The LOCK position can be found by holding the switch actuating rod stationary with one hand, then moving the switch toward the bottom of the column with the other hand, until the end of travel in the switch has been reached. This is the ACC accessory position.

Next, back off one detent in the switch and this will be the LOCK position. Make sure the ignition switch is in the LOCK position, then assemble the switch to the column using two screws. Take care to ensure proper engagement of driverod and switch slider without moving from LOCK position. Tighten screws to 35 inch-pounds.

1969 Cadillac FSM, Page 12-50, Paragraph 62

Charles Fares

[chrisntam]

Adjustment is easier that getting into the column.

If you hold some pressure on the rod (by the switch), does the key movement cause the rod to move to and fro or does it stay stationary or barely move?

I wouldn't try too much holding pressure, just enough to mimic the resistance within the switch...

[TJ Hopland]

You could just try the switch off the column hanging by the wires.   If it works that way and not on the column you will know its an adjustment or mechanical issue with the column.

[chrisntam]

I'm always interested in knowing the rest of the story.  Did the adjustment make any difference or is it a column issue?

Thanks, just curious.

chris.

[Prairieman]

CHRIS -- all is good here !!!

This forum got me on the correct path.  The fix was a $ 17 ignition switch.
The tricky part was to get the indent on the switch to match up with the position of the key tumbler and rod.

I found this great YOUTUBE video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYaSCV2ICwA

Again guys, you never know what the aftermarket product indent is set at.  Because the part has 2 mounting bolts and oval-shaped bolt holes, install it loose and play with it as your cycle the key from ACC, LOCK, OFF, ON and START.  Once you feel that all positions are served, tighten down the 2 bolts.

Again --- THANKS TO YOU ALL

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

Congratulations on sorting it out, and thankfully, it wasn't a major rebuild.

Never heard of one of these switched going bung.

Bruce.

[chrisntam]

Well, that story had a good ending!