Engine locked up???

[kfellers]

Hey guys.  New to the group.  just bought a 1961 Coupe Deville with a 390.  I was told it was locked up.  It sat in a warehouse for years.  I removed the spark plugs and filled the cylinders with marvel mystery oil.  I tried moving the fan and I couldn't get it to move.  I thought about trying to turn the crank with a wrench from under the car.  Someone told me I might have to press down on the belt to the generator while I try to break things free.  Does this make sense to anyone?  Just wondering if I should go this route before turning the key and see if it turns over at all.  I've heard mixed opinions from different people I know.  You guys are the experts.  What do you think?

[kfellers]

see attachment for 1961 Coupe Deville

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

G'day Kent,

Firstly I would be trying to get a socket and breaker bar onto the front bolt in the middle of the crankshaft, about a 1" or larger, and you might need a short extension to clear the belt hub, and see if it moves at all.

Plus, I would be pulling the rocker covers off to see if there could be any reason that the engine locked up initially.

Pulling on the fan belts does work, but only on an engine that is in good condition, but you run the risk of self harm as you need to have someone push the belt inwards, to tighten the "V" of the belt into the pulley groove.

I wouldn't be turning the key until you can get the crank to do at least one revolution by hand, as there had to be a reason for the initial seizing (Locking up).

Plus, if it hasn't been going for such a long time, the contents of the sump could be a thick gluggy mess, and any bearings that might have been good, might not be after a few turns by the starter.

Bruce.

[James Landi]

Bruce is "on it"--- I've freed up any number of frozen engines, and patience is a virtue. In most cases, getting it to rotate even a quarter of an inch is the first important step, and with a wrench on the flywheel, you can exert force both ways.  Slow and steady and patience-- you might consider loosening up the rocker arms on both cylinder banks to avoid the issue of stuck valves, and doing so will provide you with the ability to spray lubricant onto the valve stems... good luck and keep us in the loop-- your car looks to be in exceptional condition for its age.   James

[dn010]

I've also unlocked a few frozen engines. I found it easier to remove the cylinder heads all together to see what is going on and make sure nothing was broken causing it to be seized. I'd change the oil/filter first to see what you have in it and get fresh oil in the engine, you can also try to prime it with the new oil in order to aid you. Once you do get it to turn slightly, you can use the breaker bar on the crankshaft bolt to rotate the engine the "wrong" way as far as you can and then have someone on the starter to crank it the "right way" as far as it will go. A few times doing this back and forth and you'll find you gain more and more movement until it breaks free. Just remember to remove the breaker bar from the crank before starter is engaged and allow some time here and there for the starter/battery wiring to cool down because it will get hot if you do it repeatedly.

[fishnjim]

Usually, if it's "free" you can press down on the fan belt and turn the fan and they'll move, good to try to start in that case.   But what else is on the belt(s), a generator, water or steering pump, etc. if froze won't let belt turn, either.   You have to loosen the belt and make sure the attachments turn freely to be sure.   But if it's "stuck" internally this method won't cut it.

I agree with partial disassembly, at least pulling the valve covers, oil pan, and plugs and using an inspection camera, inspecting, etc, to see what's going on down to pulling the heads, if not finding anything.  I had acorn shells in one of my cylinders on the "P".   Mice and squirrels go "nuts" when storing and eating.   You might never get it to turn without knowing what's wrong, jammed lifter or broken/wedged timing chain/piston rod, spun/froze bearing, broken starter, etc. and if you do apply lots of force, it might cause further damage.   So if you don't want to "risk it" go the cautious approach.   BFH is always the tool of last resort.
Some result from sitting with a bad head gasket or crack and coolant got in the piston(s) and rusts shut.  Worse case water froze and busted something.  Those are tougher and can damage the cylinder wall making it a sleeve candidate or boat anchor.    Some are just a little rusty from sitting with the open valves that let moisture enter during period of no lubrication.   Sometimes you can soak the cylinders if that's all that's wrong, til they free up.  But operating it with bad rings or poor cylinder wall condition doesn't gain anything - just to get it going in a hurry to run bad/smoke.   Add a little acetone to trans fluid or MMO and put in a measured amount and see if it's going down before you attempt more force.
That's why "looking it over before you start" is better.   I follow the systems approach.   Make sure all the systems are functioning to the level needed to start and run properly.
Not much sense getting it to run then find out the brakes are bad when you stick it in gear.

[Lexi]

In addition to the above, I would remove the spark plugs to take engine compression out of the equation and lessen the mechanical force necessary to turn the engine over. While the plugs are out, no harm in putting a little penetrant into each cylinder, (and "reading" the plugs while they are out). Many claim that by mixing automatic transmission fluid with acetone, (50/50 ratio), the best penetrating fluid is obtained. Don't think this mix would hurt anything in the cylinder, but I imagine getting any acetone on rubber or especially plastic components would not be good. Let sit for a week or two, (with plugs back in finger loose to keep critters out). Then remove plugs and again try to turn over by hand. With plugs out should any of the penetrant used still be present, no damage to mechanicals will occur as will be expelled through empty spark plug hole. Remember, transmission oil is not compressible, so you want somewhere for the excess to go should the engine turn over and if any is still present. I would image after a couple of weeks all of it should have by then seeped past the rings.

If it does seem to free up and move even a 1/4 inch as James noted, that is good. Probably best to do all by hand but there is always the danger of breaking off that lower crankshaft bolt head. If it turns, but really tough, it would probably be OK to "bump" it with the key ever so slightly, as in a split second or less. Giving lots of time to rest so no heat build up. Would only do this IF all seems to be moving. There is also a tool that you may be able to find that may fit onto the flywheel ring gear to turn the engine over with. In that event, I would imagine that the dust cover would have to come off and perhaps the starter. More leverage would be obtained. Not having used one myself, perhaps others can comment on the pros and cons of using such a tool. Clay/Lexi

Edit: Further to Fishnjim's notes, yes an inspection camera probing all accessible areas is a good idea. Have seen mouse nests inside engines before. Anywhere those little b%&$@*%s can fit their tiny head through, is a potential nesting area. Rodent urine is also acidic and would expedite the corrosion process, if present.

[dn010]

In my case, I had two cylinders on the driver side that had coolant or water in them at one point. The rings rusted to the cylinder wall. I was able to get it free and running however I had an Uncle Buck smoke cloud. This piston rings had broken from getting it free and it had to be pulled for rebuild anyway after wasting all that time. So a definite "Agree" to the above to not rush, have lots of patience and first see what your issues are. I could have saved a few days of work had I done that.

[kfellers]

Glad to hear everyone is in agreement.  Looks like I have a game plan now.  This weekend I will give it a shot.  I'll report back what I found.

[kfellers]

Well so far it's still seized.  First go around was a couple of weeks with marvel mystery oil down the spark plug holes.  More recently, ATF down the spark plug holes.  I'm on the fence with this project.  Trying to sell my house - bad time to tear an engine apart when potential buyers come around.  I could slide it into storage.  Maybe I'll just sell and chalk it up to bad timing and try to break even.  Thanks for the help anyways. 

[bcroe]

Patience and persistence are good.  But I would keep unbolting
heads, timing chain, anything that could contribute to the
problem.  Then when all else fails, I take out the crank and
apply some really heavy hitters to pistons.  Pistons may come
out in pieces, but then the rebuild can begin.  good luck,
Bruce Roe

[Lexi]

Bruce is right, when all else fails its heavy hitting time on the pistons. I took apart a 365 that was badly seized. Had to use my air chisel to knock out the pistons, some of which did break into pieces. Clay/Lexi

[James Landi]

Sorry to hear that you're on the horns of a dilemma.  The one scenario you mention, storing the car and letting the snake oil continue to penetrate seems like a potential positive outcome. I respectfully suggest the following:   If you can suction out the varioius oils you've already put in, and get one of those tv cameras on a snake down the into the combustion chambers, you may have a much improved assessment of the engine's condition.  Clearly, if you can discern "space" between the cylinder walls and the piston tops, there's a much better chance of freeing in up, than, say in contrast, heavy rust rings on the cylinder sides and rust between the pistons and the cylinders.  ALSO,  I'd shift my "snake oil" to BLASTER penetrating concoction--- it will be far my effective.  Keep hoping for a break through on your end.  Let's keep the conversation going.       James