False information in the Cadillac Database

[Michael Stamps 19507]

I always put "Michael Stamps 19507" in the name field and I sign my messages as Stampie or Michael.  I never liked the name Mike since I was a young child.

I still say that you cast doubt on your word by intentionally spreading false information.  I did not say that you have put false information in your database.

Stampie

[Bruce Reynolds # 18992]

Gday Paul,

You are a credit to the Cadillac LaSalle Club of Australia, and to the Publishing Industry in general.

I treasure all my copies of the LaCad that I have received over the many years that I have been a member.

I was not aware of the in-bickering that goes on behind the covers, but being an editor of many Club Magazines, I am aware of the problems that seem to rear their ugly heads when the deadline approaches.   I just wish that I had owned a computer back in the 70s, but I dont think anyone back then owned them.   The Publisher Program really makes things easier.

Bruce,
The Tassie Devil(le),
60 CDV
Australias southernmost member living in Australia.

P.S.   Yes Yann, you are the best in what you do.

[Yann Saunders, CLC #12588]

"I still say that you cast doubt on your word by intentionally spreading false information."

OK, Michael. I can live with your opinion.

[Johnny]

I was going to try to resist the temptation to continue on this thread, but as "The Plot Thickens" I just have to put in my 25 cents (adjusting 2 cents for inflation).

Let me first say, that I fully understand and agree with Yanns position in this issue. Let me also take it one step further and say I find it very amusing as to what he did.  Life is too short, and sometimes tough to be 100percent serious all the time, and little diversions such as what Yann did, is very refreshing.  I just hope that Yann sees the other side of the coin.  Let me explain what I mean.

-The most ironic thing in the whole incident, is that any criticism toward Yann is due to unbelieveable amount of information available in the database, which obviously Yann has put in a lifetime of work and effort.  I for one was amazed at all the information that is available, and constantly use it, and have made a couple of very small contributions.  It is because of this, that many of us have come to look at the data base as the "Bible" of Cadillac information.  It is because of this that when it came to light that false information was intentionally put in, some of us were were dismayed, and persons such as myself, posted their feelings.  Was I trying to condemn Yann for his actions, or have him tarred and feathered and run out of town on a rail?  Of course not!  I was just merely posting my "opinion" and I might add, at my own risk of being chastized!

-I also find it amusing that in one of Yanns post on this thread, he takes to task the media for not checking their information and putting out false information, the exact same thing he did.  The one big difference is that Yann did his intentionally, while the others did it out of lack of research, and thought they were getting accurate information from Yann.

-Yann, my dear friend, put all this behind you and move on, like the rest of us have.  I personally forgot all about this, until YOU brought it up some 6 months later.  Its no big deal!  The hobby is "for entertainment purposes only", for most of us.  Look at it this way, out of the countless readers of this message board, their were just a few of us that posted our displeasure at what happened.

-As Rick said to Ilsa at the airport at the end of "Casablanca"

"Im no good at being noble, but it doesnt take much to see that the problems of three little people dont amount to a hill of beans in this crazy world."

[Mark Konecke]

Yann was on Holiday and obviously felt compelled to respond to the malicious attacks on his integrity.

Web Master - Please delete string and lets all start over!!!!!!!!!!

[Johnny aka Boolie]

Yann was on Holiday and obviously felt compelled to respond to the malicious attacks on his integrity.

Web Master - Please delete string and lets all start over!!!!!!!!!!

Wow I finally got to be the topic on this subject!  Thank you one and all for this great honor.

Dont you think "malicious" is too harsh a word to use in this dialogue?  I dont think anyone meant any malice toward Yann, I know I certaintly didnt.  I think its just a matter of people voicing their opinions in the best of American ways.

[Yann Saunders, CLC #12588]

You said: "...when it came to light that false information was intentionally put in". I assume you meant "put in THE CADILLAC DATABASE."

NEVER was ANY false information put in the Cadillac Database, intentionally or otherwise. Hear me for the last time:

The TRUE story about the Hartmann-bodied V-16 was published first in the "Self-Starter" [2/1974], in "Torque" [6-7/1974), in "Antique Automobile" [3-4/1975] and in Roy Schneiders authoritative "Sixteen-Cylinder Motor Cars" [published in 1974].

A decade LATER (circa 1985-86) and more than a decade BEFORE I even decided to compile and publish the Cadillac Database (circa 1996-97), I had an argument with some Swiss auto enthusiasts who seemed to believe ANYTHING they saw in print, heard on the air or viewed on TV. To prove their foolishness, I INTENTIONALLY misinformed a French journalist, verbally, asserting that the first owner of the Hartmann car was a Bolivian tin magnate.

That journalsit SHOULD have checked his facts. He did NOT. The "Bolivian" story was published, MUCH TO MY AMUSEMENT! It stuck and subsequently it migrated and was embellished by other automobile writers, including Dennis Adler.

I mentioned this "boyish prank" on the Cadillac Forum. Many of you immediately put two and two together and got five.

So I guess I have proved my point twice over. People DONT always check their facts before mouthing off !

End of nugatory debate.

[JIM CLC # 15000]

06-26-05
ALL, I would like to put-in my 2 er, now, 25 cents worth if I may.
When I read Yenns origional post, I said to my self, heres a real-gem of a story and spoof. Too bad so many readers miss-read and/or attached their own meaning to what was said. I wonder how meany readers would/do complain to the Editors of the super-market rags when they know most of what is published is false.
Now Web Master, do your thing.
Good Luck, Jim

[Johnny]

You said: "...when it came to light that false information was intentionally put in". I assume you meant "put in THE CADILLAC DATABASE." NEVER was ANY false information put in the Cadillac Database, intentionally or otherwise. Hear me for the last time: The TRUE story about the Hartmann-bodied V-16 was published first in the "Self-Starter" [2/1974], in "Torque" [6-7/1974), in "Antique Automobile" [3-4/1975] and in Roy Schneiders authoritative "Sixteen-Cylinder Motor Cars" [published in 1974]


Yann here is the orginal post:

Tuesday, 1/04/05 5:35 AM      
Its amazing what people pick up from my "Cadillac Database" ...and proceed to DEFORM !

Remember the 1937 V-16 convertible coupe by Hartmann (of Lausanne, Switzerland) ? Just for fun, I mentioned that the car had been specially ordered by Simon Patino, the South American tin magnate. This (deliberately false) information was seized upon and propagated by the french magazine , "NITRO".

It was picked up, even later, by the Barrett-Jackson folks who deformed it even further. We learned from them that the Hartmann car was a unique creation by Figoni & Falaschi and that it was built for a msyterious "Betino Tin Magnet" [i.e. Patino, the tin magnate !]

So, folks, dont believe everything you see in writing. It could be that nutty Yann Saunders gay just testing your credulity !

I think as written, its apparent that you gave the very strong impression with the first sentence   "Its amazing what people pick up from my "Cadillac Database" ...and proceed to DEFORM !"
That you put the false information in the database!  I dont think people reading it could think of anything different.
I still wonder why you decided to resurrect this incident some 6 months later, when I think most of us have put it aside and moved on.

[Barry Wheeler #2189]

To put this story to rest, re: "false" information being "published...."
Several years ago, one of our Indiana Region members made up a very plausible story about five box car loads of new 1941 Cadillacs sent from the factory to Hoosier Cadillac, the predecessor of Tutwiler Cadillac in Indianapolis. The boxcars got diverted to a mine in Canada. Due to the pressures of WWII, the mine was shut down, and the cars were sealed in the mines.
Upon their discovery some forty years later, the question of "what to do" with the twenty some brand new 1941 Cadillacs was made by the highest levels at Cadillac and our Region President. Since insurance had already been paid out to Hoosier Cadillac, and they had paid Cadillac Motor Car Co, it was decided that the first twenty paid up members of the Indiana Region would get a new 1941 Cadillac.
Guys, I panicked, as I hadnt paid my dues yet! After re-reading the article several times, I finally noticed that the issue of the Tailfin was the APRIL issue. (As in 04/01/19..)
Michaline Larson, then Editor of the S/S got such a kick out of the article, that it was re-printed in the national magazine. Would you believe I got a letter from a member in the Netherlands wanting to know if any of our members wanted to sell one of the "new" cars? Such is the "power" of the written word.
I wrote a follow up article for the same "April" issue the following year, describing how much pleasure the members were getting out of their cars, and who got what model. Again, it was taken for "fact" by a few persons, despite my disclaimer at the end of the piece, quoting Sam Spade in "The Maltese Falcon," that "this is the stuff that dreams are made of..," and again mentioning that this was the "April" issue of the S/S.
Yann, evidently your stature is such that your admission, no matter when the original statement was made, had the effect of shattering a few peoples  belief in both Santa Claus and the tooth fairy at the same time, with those persons stubbornly adhering to the idea that since you gave out a few wrong facts "tongue in cheek" years ago to a magazine most of us have never heard of, then everything else youve written since simply MUST have incorrect information scattered through those pages, through some nefarious plot you have hatched over the years.
I suddenly just realized that we now could have our own "de Vinci code." Start checking the Data Base carefully, gentlemen. You too, could sell fifty million copies... It will give you something better to do than pontificate on a matter that most certainly should be laid to rest. If you (the membership) do find errors in the Data Base, I am sure Yann will be the first to acknowledge the error, change the information, and give prompt credit to the person who gets us the correct facts.

[Johnny]

Barry I loved that story when I first read it, in fact I believed it until I got to the end when you supplied the disclaimer.  Its better then the Urban Legend of the cheap Corvettes, which I have heard many times over the years.

[Bruce Reynolds # 18992]

Barry,

What do you mean...There is no Santa Claus or Tooth Fairy!!!!!

I am shattered.   No wonder I dont get what I ask for.

Bruce,
The Tassie Devil(le),
60 CDV

[Yann Saunders, CLC #12588]

You wrote: "I still wonder why you decided to RERSURRECT [my emphasis] this incident some 6 months later, when I think most of us have put it aside and moved on."

Actually, it was only in June that I finally found the time to sit down, go through all the posts and recall the FACTS of the case, with the hope of putting it to rest (not resurrecting it).

Indeed this has been a hectic year for us. It started in January, with a trip to Alabama to pick up a car. We also inspected a 59 Biarritz in Birmingham, AL, for a buyer in Australia.  We made an official prsentation of a Society of Automotive Historians (SAH) award to author Maurice Hendry, in New Zealand. We were guests of the Australian Cadillac Clubs various chapters over most of the Australian continent.  In Bangkok I discussed at length, with a CLC member residing there, the possibility of his taking over from me the Cadillac Database (any OTHER volunteers?). We celepbrated our daughters 30th in Geneva, Switzerland. We did some research on Gitas genealogy in London. We had workmen in remodeling our condo. We spent time planning a trip to Europe (leaving July 3) with two American couples we know.

These were not the best conditions for dealing with an issue in  which my integrity, credibility and reputation are at stake.

You quoted me as posting this snippet: "Its amazing what people pick up from my Cadillac Database ...and proceed to DEFORM !"

You are correct, I did REFER to the Hartmann V-16 story, TOLD (as a story would be told) in the Database. I just wish you had READ it and seen the reference there to the Bolivian billionnaire prank.  Instead, as I said before, you put two and two together and got five.

[Johnny]

[These were not the best conditions for dealing with an issue in which my integrity, credibility and reputation are at stake. ]

Yann before you brought it up again, it was a dead issue, and for all intents and purposes, it was forgotten about.  I really dont think your integrity, cerdibility and reputaion was ever at stake.  Your work on the database far outweighs this incident.

The whole incident was a non event in my life, I was just merely posting my opinion.  When you think about it, I was putting my reputation, as meger as it is, on the line also by my post.

Yes it is true, that maybe if I took the time to read the Hartman story, I would have seen that it was a story within a story, and not really part of the accurate information in your database.   It is obvious by your last post you are very dedicated to Cadillac and its history, but you have to understand for many of us, the hobby is just that a hobby, and used for entertainment purposes only.  I personally dont devote as much time to the hobby and history as you do, in fact I have a somewhat different approach, in that I use the club for mostly a social vehicle.  

You opened up a can of worms when you told the story of how you fooled some major publications and an auction house.  I appeared that you were somewhat proud and boastful about this.

Given the information you put out, 2 and 2 added up to 4 for me.

[Jeff Hansen, #4225]

All,

I believe everyone has had a chance to share their opinions and concerns in this matter. Should anyone wish to continue the discussion, please do so offline.

Thanks.  

Jeff