odd ball 59 and 60 cady

[wm link]

 hear no evil, speak no evil, see no evil. No crime in ethics either.

[Johnny]

Dont misunderstand me, I am in no way defending the seller.  I personally find his tactics despicable.  I think Porter might have better put my feelings in word when he made these comments:

"If anyone is silly enough to get taken by him that is their problem."

"Unfortunately I have gotten to know a few club members that were taken by unscroupulous car dealers, I warned one of them to not buy the car sight unseen, it was a disaster, another one got shysted by LVDG, he is a shyster, end of discussion."

"A fool and his money are soon be parted. eBay attracts suckers like moths to a flame when it comes to cars, buying sight unseen, give me a break."

[Porter 21919]

Johnny,

LVDG is a constant source of amusement here for knowledgable Cadillac guys. I mean like, if he actually had a rare Cadillac for sale and advertised it honestly we would say "gee", "wow", nice car, what is it really worth ? The funny part is his in your face fictious claims and the ridiculous " buy it now " way too high price. Perhaps he has seen too many Barrett Jackson auctions on TV or rare Cadillacs are his gig, specifically ragtops.

He always has nice Cadillac "show cars" for sale but they are never correct as claimed, granted he buys right and sells high to make a profit, at least he has proven you can make money buying and selling cars.

The closed auction thing is bogus and we all know that. Or what ever you call it, private auction, that exists only to protect him.

We are all nothing but a thorn in his butt, he will keep trolling until he finds his whale. He keeps us amused, I have never been severly burned buying a car, only a little sunburn once, proper knowledgeable inspection is a must and cars are very illiquid, easy to buy and hard to sell. Guess it all depends how badly you want the car, if you find the right car it is worth a decent $$$.

Porter

[Yann Saunders, 12588]

Just for the sake of argument, Ive asked the seller for a photo of the aluminum body tag on the firewall (he does not mention it anywhere on his ad).  That factory ID tag should provide a better idea of what model he is in fact offering for sale.  

I am guessing what his answer will be :

"There is no such tag on the car because it is a unique GM experimental model".

[Joe Abernathy #17524]

On the 59 convertables there is a speaker mounted in the middle of the back seat and one in the dash behind a chrome grill.

This car has the wrong back seat and you can see in the pics that when they cut the dash chrome insert to move the radio over they eliminated the grill.  (The V that is on the tv door is the one that shold be on the front speaker grill.)

So I emailed Marv and asked where are the speakers for the "restored to perfection" radio?  His response, "In the same place it was originally. (Dash)"

It seems to me that if you just restored the car you would say something like, "In the dash, the same as all other 59s".
But if you had altered the car you would say we put it back in its original location.

I was at his shop when this car was under consrtuction.  He was very proud of it and talked it up quite a bit, but what I saw looked as though someone was fabricating a car.

[dale jackson]

 I think I solved the motorrama Car case. His car was built on jan 12 or 13 in 1959.  The 1959 Motorama show was at the waldorf astoria in new york oct 16-22 1958.  His car was built janary 12 or 13 1959 . His car did not exist Since the car was not built intill jan 1959. http://www.car-nection.com/yann/Dbas_txt/Factm-p.htm TARGET=_blank>http://www.car-nection.com/yann/Dbas_txt/Factm-p.htm This from Yann website and he wrote down the excact date from 1958.  In yanns write up He said they went boston right after the new york show.

   In 1960 there was no show intill 1961 models were displayed. I need find the exact date for 1961 motorrama show. In photes from the 1958 show it has 1959 cadillacs being in show since they just out.  
   I also checked a motorama website selling the vidio for 14.95. It said in last shows for 1959 and 1961. They used gm production cars for the with scissers lift etc.

  I also read somewhere in marv ads the car was in new york auto show in and its blue and cool with tv. He said an person remebers the car blue in janary or feberary 1959 new york auto show.    

    If car dont sale marv is going send car to barret jackson auto to be sold without reserve. A person needs tell barret jackson not run car in there auction company sinces its an fake car . This man has committed fraud and should throw in jail or whatever.

   Its an fake for sure from what I found . Its an homebuilt car using an 1959 rust bucket serois 62 convertible and a 1960 rustfree body shell or a 1960 convertible with restamped 1959 frame and engine numbers.    

  One last thing if gm was going display  an car with an tv installed in the 1961 show they would have used an 1960 or 1961 cadillac convertible.

  For sure this car was not at the 1959 motorama in new york but could it have been in some other car show janary or febary 1959 in new york.  Dale

[Yann Saunders, 12588]

Already got a reply.

Marv referred me to the pic on his eBay ad page that shows the plastic tag on the driver door jamb ; he says that number matches the one stamped on the chassis and engine block (which PROVES beyond any doubt that the car is a 59 model and NOT a 60).  According to the build sheet also shown on his eBay ad, the car body # is 3170 so its an EARLY 59 car, built January 13, 1959.

I have asked again that he kindly send me a photo of the aluminum ID tag that SHOULD BE on the firewall.  I dont think he has that tag (either lost during restoration or more likely deliberately destroyed because it had the 1960 "STYLE", "BODY", "PAINT", "TRIM", "TOP", "ACC." numbers and letters.

That will give me an excuse to tell him Im no longer interested in the car and that I think its a fake.

[dale jackson]

 Vin plate or restamping can get you throw in prision big time. I think its an fedral crime and has an stiff sentence.  Under law in texas if you change the body on car say install an 1960 body on 1959 frame . You cant use the 1959 vin plate anymore. They will use the the 1960 vin plate or the state will put an new vin plate with texas seal written on it. Its an felony to alter to tamper with vin numbers. dale

[robert p millian]

Hello Yann

Going back and re-reading the sellers comments, I find that his  emphasis on the vin tag and build sheet, as to state this is the official proof that this car was built by Cadillac in 1959. So what!! All that proves that it was built on such a day as a 59 cad conv. You could look up that info on many other years. it proves nothing as to what hes stating in his ad as to this was a special model. You know what, I would ask him show me the proof that Cadillac made this car such as factory photos, design dept drawings etc.

Yann, I did miss the interior trunk you pointed out.which from what I can make out in the picture, the material is incorrect and also the spare tire cover should be gloss black. Very interesting to note is, if this was really built by Cadillac you would think it would of had the optional spare tire liner cover over the tire. Oh well, enough said.

bob

[Donny Sylvestro]

cant the club historian request a build sheet to settle this?

[Joe Abernathy #17524]

What is there to settle?  The guy is a shyster and the car is bogus!

Case setteled!

[dale jackson]

 It finished at over 164000 dollers and still did not meet reserve. I guess it was rigged auction since it all private bids. It was started at 100k and I guess its over. dale

[dale jackson]

 His prove is looks like bongus paper. I have linked to this to read the junk he wrote up or paid peaple to write up.http://www.pink-cadillac.de/modules.php?set_albumName=album112&id=24_G&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_photo.php    Next link paper from cadillac http://www.pink-cadillac.de/modules.php?set_albumName=album112&id=23_G&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_photo.php TARGET=_blank>http://www.pink-cadillac.de/modules.php?set_albumName=album112&id=23_G&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index       http://www.pink-cadillac.de/modules.php?set_albumName=album112&id=25_G&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_photo.php TARGET=_blank>http://www.pink-cadillac.de/modules.php?set_albumName=album112&id=25_G&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index    Next link  http://www.pink-cadillac.de/modules.php?set_albumName=album112&id=26_G&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_photo.php TARGET=_blank>http://www.pink-cadillac.de/modules.php?set_albumName=album112&id=26_G&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index     Its amazing the guy will post documents on net to try prove his car.  

  I guess its worthless papers he made up. dale

[Yann Saunders, 12588]

No point.  Marv HAS the build sheet. It is displayed on his eBay ad page.  It just shows what we all know or suspect :  the car started its life as a 1959 Cadillac Series 62 convertible and carries body number 3170 out of 11130 built that year.

Im not sure about the initial destination code "UC", shown on that build sheet. Can anyone recognize it or make an educated guess ?  I see others on the sheet, like JAX (Jacksonville?), HOU (Houston?), PHI (Philadelphia?), PEO (Peoria, IL?), BOS (Boston?), CHI (Chicago?), SF (San Francisco?)...

BTW, apologies to Marv.  He DID send me last night a pic of the original body tag which he says is still attached with the original rivets. The tag appears to be that of a regular style 59-6267 Series 62 convertible; all other indications correspond with those on the build sheet (paint, trim, etc.).

He wrote :  I will [have to ?] move 10-15 cars now so I can take the picture of the plate your requesting. It is mounted under the hood, near the back of the engine compartment on the drivers side.  Still has the original factory rivets!  It will show that this is a 1959 Cadillac Series 62 Convertible and that the original color was white...which matches the GM Cadillac factory build sheet. This car has been 3 different colors....White, Blue and Red.  What I have is real!  And I am only too happy to furnish you with the proof. The Black car you sent me a pic. of with red interior is an ELDORADO... NOT a series 62 [[ in fact what I sent Marv, to disprove his assertion that the trim in his car was NEITHER from 1969 or 1960, was a pic of a FAKE Eldorado - i.e. a Series 62 with added-on Eldo side trim !]].  Also, I am in direct communications with General Motors. They have requested that I loan the car to GM to be on display for the upcoming show in November in Las Vegas. They are introducing the 2006 Cadillac Escalade which will be the 1st car ever offered with Direct TV (Satellite Television) [[How do you capture a satellite TV signal in a moving vehicle???]]. The TV screens will of course be in the back seating areas. They saw the car on the NBC Today show...I have a DVD of this program.(NTSC System). This would show the public where TV 1st began in an automobile (my 1959/1960 Cadillac) and how far they have come today...the Direct TV is going to be approx. a $3000 option in the Escalade. I have not given them an answer yet, but will have to do so within the next few weeks."

Right on, Marv !

BTW, the auction ended last night with the reserve NOT being met (once again).

[Bruce Reynolds # 18992]

Gday Yann,

Ill bet Marv is loving these threads, and well se if it ever gets to a Barrett-Jackson Auction.

Did I read somewhere that Barrett-Jackson wont accept vehicles for auction if there is a Reserve, or is that another Auction House?

Bruce,
The Tassie Devil(le),
60 CDV

[Dave #17592]

Well,   he wasnt lying about the Direct TV being offered.   Here is a story from Automotive News.  An Industry trade magazine I subscribe to.

Automotive News / April 25, 2005
 
DETROIT -- General Motors has taken the first step toward bringing live TV programming to every full-sized SUV it sells in the United States.

Last week, KVH Industries Inc. of Middletown, R.I., said it will begin offering its TracVision automotive satellite TV system as a dealer-installed option on the 2005 Cadillac Escalade and SRX - the first offer of its kind. The cost: about $3,000.

"Were starting on the full-sized SUVs and will dip our toes in the water on the other models," says Doug Schumacker, Cadillac accessories and specialty vehicle manager.

Schumacker says GM engineers have begun working on determining how to wire all of GMs full-sized SUVs for the system at the factory. He says this would allow dealerships to install the option in about 30 minutes. Now installation is expected to take an average of two to three hours.

Cadillac expects to sell about 2,000 Escalades and SRXs equipped with the system in its first year.

The system consists of a receiver and a 45-pound, roof-mounted antenna that can pick up channels from DIRECTV Group Inc. Cos.

New Cadillac Escalade or SRX buyers who do not have DIRECTV must pay $41.99 a month to receive 125 channels of TV programming, including 36 channels of commercial-free music. The monthly subscription for drivers who subscribe to DIRECTV is $5.

"This isnt just for watching Barney videos," KVH CEO Martin Kits van Heyningen says of the service.

"You get the full DIRECTV programming," he says. "You can watch ESPN, the Starz movie package or Bloomberg. This has a much more universal appeal" than entertainment systems "for kids in the back seat of the minivan."

Picture at this link:

http://www.autonews.com/images/articles/52770.jpg TARGET=_blank>http://www.autonews.com/images/articles/52770.jpg

David

[bill refakis #3171]

hi guys,marvs letter from the guy who is certain of the car he saw in 1959,may have trouble explaining to me how he worked at potamkin cadillac starting in 1957,when in fact i worked next door,and was at work in 1972,the day they opened!!I think if he sells this car,I may put it into my59 project,and follow it back to its conversion day!

[art woody]

B.-J. auction will sell with reserve, but will charge a premium commission. No reserve auctions attract more bidding action ordinarily.

[Yann Saunders, 12588]

Well, the (latest) LUVDG auction is over.  I had "invented" a collector in France who might be interestd in trading his Delahaye for the 59-60 Cadillac.  "He" wrote Marv after the auction ended to explain that he was no longer interested in the Cadillac because the body tag did not carry any "SO" (special order) style number. That message got Marv really raving; here is his "businesslike" reply, today :

QUOTE
You French wouldnt know a experimental car built by Harley Earl & GM at the "skunk works" from a loaf of stale bread!

I own the Cars From Yesterday Museum with over 400 cars valued at well over 50 million dollars.In the Museum are 45 Cadillacs built between 1927 & 1976.

I have no idea what comments your referring to from a "Mr. Cadillac" [me]. My car has been authenticated [] by the Grandson of Harley Earl, and you probably never heard of him either?

Please do me a favor....do NOT write to me ever again....

I resent your insults! [what insults ?  I just said I was no longer interested in the car].

Its a shame so many wonderful Americans and British brave soldiers gave their lives in WW II to save your Country when 50 years later a great deal of your "Countrymen" remain ungrateful and obnoxious towards the United States! [gratuitous, "racial"-type insults].

One last thing, I was never interested in your UGLY Delahaye TURD!
UNQUOTE

I could not resist this one last reply written in made up "Frenglish" :

QUOTE
Marv,

I not understand why you very insult language.  Why ? I not insult you ; just say I not want buy your Cadillac because not "SO" model [GM show car] according identification plate.

Sure I know Richard Earl ? He is good friend of MrCadillac.  I telephone with him ; he think Richard never hear of  this "funny" 1959-60 GM Motorama car before you speak with him.  He think Richard NEVER "auhenticate" your car [if true, please send copy of Richard "authentification affidavit".  I think you just invent story as well as "funny" letters from people is see car in 1959 GM Motorama.  TWO people see BLUE car but car painted WHITE ! You witnesses colour blind !

Mr Cohen say he begin work Potemkin Cadillac in 1957, but this dealer NOT OPEN UNTIL 1972 !  He also sat in car at Motorama show, NY, on 16 October 1959  Cest impossible ! "1959" Motorama was from 16-22 October ....1958 !!!

MrCadillac write commentaries on your photos here :

http://www.pink-cadillac.de/modules.php?set_albumName=album112&id=24_G&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_photo.php TARGET=_blank>http://www.pink-cadillac.de/modules.php?set_albumName=album112&id=24_G&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index

[More iformation from MrCadillac] :  The 1959 and 1961 Motoramas used production cars and elaborate displays as the show’s main draws. Gigantic mechanical arms, nicknamed "grasshoppers," were used to display the cars on stage. To the amazement of the crowd, the five show cars were lifted up and propelled forward by the giant grasshopper-like devices. The main attraction in the ’59 show was the Firebird III gas turbine car. It was the only "dream" car in the show and was displayed on an elaborate revolving turntable across from the main stage.

You see.  It was there NO 59-60 Cadillac with TV.

Now I think you "funny" man.  Try to sell "funny" car.

Bien le bonjour chez vous
UNQUOTE

I guess some of you will accuse me of playing a lying game, just like Marv, but - heck - this guy has pulled too many legs; its about time someone pulled his !

[Porter 21919]

Yann,

Good job, just goes to prove what an arrogant hostile shyster LVDG is.

The saga of the fake 59 Motorama car will come to some type of conclusion eventually.

Sometimes I wonder if LVDG really believes what he is selling is authentic , nah, I doubt it.

Good to see you checked us out over at the Modified Chapter, we are harmless and no threat or advocate of modifying correct original Cadillacs, only the one we save from the crusher that nobody wants, just to keep them running again in any shape or form, most guys would just part them out, is that better ?

Porter