Questions on inside engine cleanup - engine out now & need help.

[Fred Zwicker #23106]

   I posted this information to an earlier question about the screened oil intake to the oil pump, but need help on what to do next with my engine, which is currently out of the car and partially disassembled.  I believe that engine was rebuilt some years back, so did not want to rebuild it, but instead wanted to clean thing up.

I am wondering how far to go with cleanup of the top end of my engine. It ran perfectly, had plenty of power, ran quietly, did not burn oil, had good oil pressure, etc., but when I removed the top valve covers for gasket replacement, found that there was a LOT of black gunk that I removed very carefully with a plastic putty knife and other means. (see attached pictures before and after). I did not use any kerosene or solvents to do this cleanup - instead removed it meticulously by hand from above, spending about 6 hours in the process.

I was able to get it into decent shape, but am wondering if I should go further by cleaning up with kerosene under pressure (from the top) and whether to blow out the oil lines with kerosene under pressure?  While it will undoubtedly clean up more of the gunk, am concerned that it might cause more problems in the process.  The only reason that I removed my engine was to clean the frame and paint the firewall, and also to clean, paint and detail the engine, as well as replace all of the gaskets and have the exhaust manifold porcelainized.  I am afraid of going too far with too much cleanup of an otherwise good engine.  One mechanic mentioned that when he cleans the top end of an engine such as this, he does so with the engine in an upside down position. Any ideas on this? Thanks for whatever help you can provide.

Fred Zwicker

P.S.  Click on pictures below to enlarge photos. 

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

G'day Fred,

Your "clean-up" is looking marvellous.   Pity that we can't run clear covers and the like to see what it all looks like when in use, but sometimes we just don't want to know.

But, if you want to retain the good-running of the engine as it appears to be, I wouldn't be recommending you touch or undo any of the internals, like disturbing Bearings or pulling pistons, etc.

If you do that, then you will find that when you put it back together, it might start using oil, blowing smoke, etc.

You must remember that once everything is running together, each part is complementing each other, but if you "Disturb" things, then they will have to be "run-in" again, so that they can be "comfortable" with each other, and run smoothly.

Plus, you might just find that you are going to want to replace the Rings, and the Bearings might "just" look like they could do with replacing, and you finish up with a totally rebuilt motor, and wasted all that meticulous cleaning up time, as everything could have just been cleaned up with the "dunk and spray" method in the first place.

Bruce.

[TJ Hopland]

If that was mine I would remove and clean the pan also then put er back together and do several oil changes.  The fresh detergents in the new oil will slowly clean that stuff up.   Looks like it has done lots of short trips in its life.  Some nice long trips from time to time will help also.

[Fred Zwicker #23106]

If that was mine I would remove and clean the pan also then put er back together and do several oil changes.  The fresh detergents in the new oil will slowly clean that stuff up.   Looks like it has done lots of short trips in its life.  Some nice long trips from time to time will help also.

Regarding using  "detergents in the new oil" is a possibility, but others on this forum strongly recommend not using detergent oil if non-detergent oil was used previously.  The reason being that all of the gunk will break loose at once and the car could then start burning oil, smoking, etc.  In my case, was unable to determine if detergent oil was used in the past, as the car was in a museum and I heard that most museums concentrate primarily on the looks of the car, as the cars are seldom driven. 

The owner of the Oklahoma museum from 1996 to 2006, as well as the previous owner from 1983 to 1996 are both deceased, although I did talk to the owner from 1983 to 1996 last year (before he died at age 86) and he was not sure of what oil was used.  Looking at all of the gunk in the top end of the motor, as well as about 1/2" of loose heavy gunky oil in the oil pan, plus no oil filter ever makes me believe that non-detergent oil was previously used.  My first oil change last year was to non-detergent 20W50 aircraft oil, as I didn't want to take a chance on fouling things up. Since then, decided to go with straight 30 weight non-detergent oil when I reassemble the top lifter covers and the oil pan (after complete cleaning of the oil pan, which was removed).  I also plan to add a small bottle of EOS to the oil, as I did with the first oil change.

I prefer not to install a remote oil filter to keep the original look, so will just change the oil more frequently. I was wondering if adding a small amount of Marvel Mystery Oil might help without breaking up too much gunk, but I think that Marvel contains detergents.  I guess if the cars ran well during the late 30s, 40s and 50s with non-detergent oil, this should be OK for limited mileage as would be expected of such a car.  At least I know that the engine is fairly clean now (what can be seen), so I feel better about it anyhow.

I have a nice web site that shows the rebuilding of this car from start to just last week, including about 70 pictures to date.  Check it out at www.fzoldcars.com and then click on '39 LaSalle Restoration for this info. Attached is a picture of the engine as of yesterday in our shop, waiting for reassembly, plus a picture of a custom made engine stand on wheels that we made in our plant at TP Tools in Canfield, Ohio.  Click on the pictures for a larger view.

Thanks for the advice, which is greatly appreciated.

Fred Zwicker

[tozerco]

Fred,

Great looking engine cradle. Got dimensioned drawings by any chance? Also need to know what year flathead engine it is for.

Regards,


John Tozer

[Fred Zwicker #23106]

Great looking engine cradle. Got dimensioned drawings by any chance? Also need to know what year flathead engine it is for.

Thanks John,

Cradle is for a 1939 LaSalle 322 cubic inch V8 engine, which weighs close to 1000 pounds. It was made in our shop specifically for this engine and can be wheeled around by one person like a shopping cart. Stand was designed so that oil pan, soft plugs, clutch, etc, can all be removed for service, as well as manifolds and every other component.  Bottom was made of rectangular tubing so that the entire stand and motor can be picked up by a forklift and stacked on a speed rack if necessary.  Since it was made from scratch, we did not make a print.  If you decide to make up such a cradle, be sure to make of very heavy-duty steel and  also be sure that the wheels are properly rated for the weight.

Fred

[John Morris #23947]

Hi Fred. Nice car! I'm a clean freak, and though much cleaner than the before picture, your beautiful car, in my opinion, I would clean the engine to the point you could eat off of it. If on an engine stand it is much easier. I've cleaned plenty of engines and it gets easier each time, I use solvent, tooth brushes, scrapers of every type including pointed awls, long skinny brushes for oil galleries, then when you can't get it any cleaner use a jug of solvent with the syphon blow gun attachment and it will be so clean you will beam with pride. What worries people is the not quite complete job, which leaves lots of loose crap all over to clog passages and get into bearings ect. While it's out, in my opinion, get it completely spotless, your beautiful car deserves the little extra effort. John.