New GM Logo. What do you think?

[chrisntam]

First I work at GM, non management.  Our leadership team is transforming the company from the last century to this one and has committed the company to it.  Mary Barra (CEO) spoke at the electronic show last week showing more of our future planning and is 100% committed to "GM's Zero-Crashes, Zero-Emissions and Zero-Congestion vision and how the company is driving an inflection point on mass adoption of EVs".  Our team has bet the farm on the new future of transportation and only a small portion remains of our past.  The new logo represents the reboot to change the company.

The world continues to change, GM is leading that change in the transportation space.

David

Thanks for the explanation from the "inside".

I'll speak for myself, but I surmise it may apply to a lot of folks here.

As you would expect, the very nature of this club is to "live in the past", as we enjoy our old(er) cars and because of that, you're speaking to somewhat of a "hostile" audience.  I'll suggest most don't like the changes that are being made around us, me for sure being one of them.  Maybe the horsemen of the early 1900s fought the change to the automobile only to lose out in the end, I don't know.  It's certainly a similar situation, going from one mode of transportation to another.

I agree with others that the change to EV will be a struggle due to lack of range and availability of charging stations on the road, not to mention the downtime while charging, none are very inviting.  Certainly EV cars have their place for around town driving, but the problem has yet to be solved for over the road driving.

[Big Apple Caddy]

You missed my point, places out west like CA have brownouts now. So where is all this excess electricity going to come from?

No one wants a plant in their backyard shall I coin a phrase?

Maybe someday, but they even want to ban natural gas usage. Now talk of efficiency, government subsidies are inefficient as a rule. Forcing the free market to produce a product people do not want or need is inefficient. Look at how terrible the cars were in the 1970s. Mandated by pollution control, needed but this came at a cost. Now we talking a BIG BIG cost but for how much reward for society. People who get the subsidies care about themselves not society, and have an incentive to overstate the rewards.

This is efficient for one group, those who get the subsidy.

All brought about by government mandates, while needed at times going overboard will not be the solution but just another burden for the rest of us.

There have long been all sorts of government subsidies out there whether it be for fossil fuels, electricity (often generated from fossil), renewable energy, etc.  Gasoline, electricity, etc. would all be more expensive without the various government subsidies on research, development, exploration, extraction, etc.

NOT looking to get political here but it will be interesting to see where and how green/alternative fuel/global warming "policies" and proposed investments progress under the new administration, as well as in countries around the world.  It's also important to keep in mind that GM’s (and others) move towards EVs is more than just about the North American market.

[Big Apple Caddy]

My Dad used to warn; "Beware of enviromental terrorism". He saw all this nonsense coming some 50 years ago. Clay/Lexi

The desire, of some, to move way from ICE vehicles has been around for a while.  Back in the 1960s, a California State Senate committee approved advancing a bill that would ban gasoline cars from California highways by 1975.  Around the same time, New York state considered a bill that would ban the registration of new gasoline cars in the state after 1975.  Neither happened, of course.

These days, more and more legislation is being proposed in those directions here and especially overseas.  It will be interesting to see what happens.  GM's planned move towards EVs is more than just about the North American market.

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

This may be the article you are referring to:
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a35152087/tesla-model-3-charging-costs-per-mile/

However, I think that $9/gallon figure is pretty misleading as it doesn't take into account the much greater efficiency of electricity (EV) versus gasoline (ICE vehicle).

It still winds up costing 10.4 cents per mile after all that is factored in which is just under the 10.7 cents per mile recorded for their long term test gas powered BMW. 

[Big Apple Caddy]

It still winds up costing 10.4 cents per mile after all that is factored in which is just under the 10.7 cents per mile recorded for their long term test gas powered BMW.

True, but the $9/gallon reference makes it sound like you'd be paying 3 to 4 times more for supercharging than for gasoline which is very misleading.  The actual fuel usage cost, based on their data, is basically the same between the two vehicles due to the EV's greater efficiency (more miles per "gallon").  The fuel cost to go 15,000 miles with the Tesla would be around $1,560 (supercharging) or $825 (home charging) compared to $1,605 for the BMW.

Additionally, C&D's MPGe results were notably lower than the EPA estimates.  If the Model 3 had achieved the EPA figure, the fuel usage cost would’ve been at least 1/3 less.

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

True, but the $9/gallon reference makes it sound like you'd be paying 3 to 4 times more for supercharging than for gasoline which is very misleading.  The actual fuel usage cost, based on their data, is basically the same between the two vehicles due to the EV's greater efficiency (more miles per "gallon").  The fuel cost to go 15,000 miles with the Tesla would be around $1,560 (supercharging) or $825 (home charging) compared to $1,605 for the BMW.

Additionally, C&D's MPGe results were notably lower than the EPA estimates.  If the Model 3 had achieved the EPA figure, the fuel usage cost would’ve been at least 1/3 less.

Understood the higher cost per mile pertains to being supercharged vs at home.

Add into the mix that the Tesla battery lost 7% of charging capacity after 24,000 miles which means it would likely qualify for warranty replacement for dropping below 70% capacity within 120,000 miles. Now comes the fine print: The replacement battery is not new; only a battery that meets the 70% threshold so subsequent battery replacements will be on the owner's dime - a lot of them - as in $5,000 to $7,000.

All it boils down to is that "saving at the pump" becomes an expensive proposition.

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a35203450/tesla-model-3-battery-capacity-loss-warranty/   

[64\/54Cadillacking]

The location of where one lives will heavily determine if an EV is a logical choice or not.

Cost is another major factor. If utility companies start charging more money to its customers because the sudden shock to the power grid since more and more people are buying EV’s and plugging them into their homes to charge, the cost of ownership over the years will eventually become unaffordable for many average Americans due to higher electricity cost, and this WILL happen.

In CA, we have one of the highest utility rates in the nation, yet our weather here is fairly mild all year around and the only time people ever really use extra electricity is during the summer months. So what gives? It’s obviously our massive population and utility companies being able to charge skyrocket prices are the main factors.

The only real way I can see EV’s working for everyone and being a much more affordable way to drive, are solar panels being installed on top of the roofs of the car. So as long as it’s sunny out, you never have to worry about recharging your EV.

But I don’t think the big utility companies will like that at all. Just watch, EV’s will be all the rage in the coming years, and then all of sudden the government will deem them “environmentally unfriendly” one day, all because of how much battery disposal waste will accumulate over time in landfills, and the increase of demand to create more electricity from power plants.

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

In CA, we have one of the highest utility rates in the nation, yet our weather here is fairly mild all year around and the only time people ever really use extra electricity is during the summer months. So what gives? It’s obviously our massive population and utility companies being able to charge skyrocket prices are the main factors.

The high electric rates in CA is for reasons unrelated to the population in that state. That's all I'll say on the matter.

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

Well, I buy a car for its' looks, and performance in what I want to put it through.

When they build an electric vehicle that does this, then I might buy one, but the way things are, and have been for the past decade, my '72 Eldorado Convertible still fills the bill.

Cars now just have no style.

Bruce.

[Big Apple Caddy]

Understood the higher cost per mile pertains to being supercharged vs at home.

Add into the mix that the Tesla battery lost 7% of charging capacity after 24,000 miles which means it would likely qualify for warranty replacement for dropping below 70% capacity within 120,000 miles. Now comes the fine print: The replacement battery is not new; only a battery that meets the 70% threshold so subsequent battery replacements will be on the owner's dime - a lot of them - as in $5,000 to $7,000.

All it boils down to is that "saving at the pump" becomes an expensive proposition.

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a35203450/tesla-model-3-battery-capacity-loss-warranty/

The EPA estimates that the annual fuel cost (assuming 15,000 miles/year, 45% highway, 55% city) for a 2021 Tesla Model 3 Long Range AWD is $500/year compared to $1,700/year for a 2021 Cadillac CT4 2.0T AWD.

After 120,000 miles (when the current Tesla battery warranty expires) at current average fuel prices, the Tesla fuel cost would be around $4,000 compared to $13,600 for the Cadillac.  A difference of $9,600.  Whether or not the Tesla battery would need to be replaced then, before under warranty, or not for years later is unknown.

A lot of production, engineering, and technology improvements have been and will continue to be made in the EV battery space which will result in faster charging, greater range, longer battery life, lower costs, etc.  As these and other "EV" related improvements continue to be made, more and more consumers will be making the switch from ICE to EV.  At least that seems to be what many automakers are expecting, perhaps more so overseas than here right now but the overall global momentum is there.  Should be interesting times ahead.

[Big Apple Caddy]

Top ten states with highest average residential electricity rates:
1.   Hawaii
2.   Alaska
3.   Connecticut
4.   Rhode Island
5.   Massachusetts
6.   California
7.   Vermont
8.   New Hampshire
9.   New York
10.   Maine

[chrisntam]

With my last contract for electricity, I was paying between $0.10 & $0.11 cents per KWH.  I reduced my cost to $0.083 cents per KWH with my new contract with another provider.  I think it's still too much, it should be around six or seven cents a KWH...

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

I am afraid that I really don't care what the price is, so long as it doesn't stop coming.   It is hard to electric weld without it.

Down here, we are 95% Hydro and a couple of wind farms thrown in.

Bruce.

[James Landi]

At the "end of the day," the new gm logo, the Cadillac Electric, and the autonomous driver devices leave most of us in the dust; yet, our passion and interests in "The Standard of The World" automobiles from decades past is centered on lives well lived long ago-- and that's important because our cars, and our experiences and emotional attachments to them are deeply rooted in American cultural history.  The historical relevance and understanding of these fabulous vehicles is amplified each year as we're all hurled into the 21st century and the "shock of the new."    Most important-- have fun with these wonderful cars-- they are a joy to behold, to discuss, and, most especially, to own and drive.   Happy day,  James

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

  Whether or not the Tesla battery would need to be replaced then, before under warranty, or not for years later is unknown.

That's a pretty wide berth to hang one's hat on which could either be far better or far worse.

Out of curiosity I looked into auction prices of 2018 Tesla 3 and found the market value is $33,000 based on auction wholesale sales results. The kicker is that the average mileage on the model at auction is only 18,000 which is far below NADA national average of 40,000 - 45,000 for a 2018 vehicle.

The fact that these cars are being traded with such low mileage suggests owners found the benefits of EV ownership are outweighed by inconveniences/drawbacks - at least for the time being.

I have no objection to someone trying to build a better mousetrap. It is when those unproven (at least for now) mousetraps are being shoved down the throat of the people is when I most strongly object. 

[Big Apple Caddy]

That's a pretty wide berth to hang one's hat on which could either be far better or far worse.

Out of curiosity I looked into auction prices of 2018 Tesla 3 and found the market value is $33,000 based on auction wholesale sales results. The kicker is that the average mileage on the model at auction is only 18,000 which is far below NADA national average of 40,000 - 45,000 for a 2018 vehicle.

The fact that these cars are being traded with such low mileage suggests owners found the benefits of EV ownership are outweighed by inconveniences/drawbacks - at least for the time being.

I have no objection to someone trying to build a better mousetrap. It is when those unproven (at least for now) mousetraps are being shoved down the throat of the people is when I most strongly object.

There are plenty of high mileage Teslas out there but I think a lot of them are one of a few cars in an owner's garage.  Luxury cars, or at least luxury priced cars, tend to be lower mileage than the average car.  Besides that, people who trade out of a Tesla may be doing so to go with another EV as federal and/or state level tax credits and incentives, adjusted sticker prices, new models, etc. have created a unique buying/selling/trading environment in the EV space.

It also wouldn't surprise me to hear that more people trade out of Teslas due to quality and poor customer service issues than any sort of BEV issues.  I think Tesla really needs to get its act together there, especially as new BEV makes/models are introduced and consumers have more choice in that market.  Could be real opportunities for companies like GM, Ford, etc.

New BEV models, advancing battery technologies, expanding infrastructures, etc. will continue to increase the appeal in the years and decades to come.  However, BEVs aren't expected to be much more than 30% of total global new vehicle sales before 2030.  At least that's the general consensus right now.  Forecasts keep getting adjusted higher.

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

There are plenty of high mileage Teslas out there but I think a lot of them are one of a few cars in an owner's garage.  Luxury cars, or at least luxury priced cars, tend to be lower mileage than the average car. 

2018 Escalade Luxury cost a lot more than a Tesla 3 with an average mileage of 46,000 showing at the auctions.

[Big Apple Caddy]

2018 Escalade Luxury cost a lot more than a Tesla 3 with an average mileage of 46,000 showing at the auctions.

Not a surprise given that you picked a model in a vehicle category (large SUVs) that tends to have the highest average miles.  Large SUVs are typically driven more than any other passenger vehicles e.g., Suburban, Yukon, Tahoe, Escalade, Expedition, etc. are among vehicle models with the highest average miles.   Additionally, a lot of Escalades are used as fleet/livery vehicles which can also skew the numbers.

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

Not a surprise given that you picked a model in a vehicle category (large SUVs) that tends to have the highest average miles.  Large SUVs are typically driven more than any other passenger vehicles e.g., Suburban, Yukon, Tahoe, Escalade, Expedition, etc. are among vehicle models with the highest average miles.   Additionally, a lot of Escalades are used as fleet/livery vehicles which can also skew the numbers.

You said: "Luxury cars, or at least luxury priced cars, tend to be lower mileage than the average car."

Escalade was chosen purely on the basis of being the most expensive model which directly contradicts your theory (above). That is all.

Exotic, fair weather driven cars ie: sports, high performance cars and convertibles I would agree but a Tesla 3 not even remotely close. A garage ornament it is not. It is a utilitarian transportation appliance that compared to the competing alternatives, is not driven very much. You think people disposing of them with extremely low mileage because they like them so much?

You've got an excuse for everything I'll give you that. 

BTW- The only Tesla I wish I bought is Tesla stock options.

[Big Apple Caddy]

You said: "Luxury cars, or at least luxury priced cars, tend to be lower mileage than the average car."

Escalade was chosen purely on the basis of being the most expensive model which directly contradicts your theory (above). That is all.

Yes, and I was speaking luxury as a general category vs. comparable non-luxury vehicles e.g., similar size sedans, NOT sedans vs. SUVs, convertibles vs. minivans, etc. which can have their own usage variables.

Large SUVs and minivans simply tend to be driven more because they are typically purchased by larger, more active families.

Exotic, fair weather driven cars ie: sports, high performance cars and convertibles I would agree but a Tesla 3 not even remotely close. A garage ornament it is not. It is a utilitarian transportation appliance that compared to the competing alternatives, is not driven very much. You think people disposing of them with extremely low mileage because they like them so much?

People trade/sell cars for all sorts of reasons but according to a recent Experian analysis of U.S. auto registrations, Telsa was #1 in brand loyalty i..e., owners more often trading one Tesla for another Tesla and/or adding additional Teslas to the household.  Given Tela’s quality and customer services issues, this actually suggests to me that people must be very loyal to BEVs to be willing to continue to put up with some of Tesla's quality and customer service shortcomings.

Once there are more BEV choices in the marketplace, I think plenty of Tesla owners will be looking to trade their Tesla(s) for BEVs from other automakers.