Hi,
I'm doing some preventive maintenance and cosmetic engine detailing on my original low mileage 74 Coupe deVille (27k miles) with the 472 over the winter. http://www.eldorado-seville.com/files/74airpump.php (http://www.eldorado-seville.com/files/74airpump.php)
Somebody suggested that I should definitely replace the nylon covered timing gear and the timing chain with a new one due to age.
For a stock engine would you recommend to get a Cloyes true roller set as the best available quality option? Is it quiet as well?
I am also planning to change the water pump with a new one while I have everything apart anyway.
I have never changed a timing gear before, but I am confident that I can do it, but I do not have the proper tools for this job yet...
I do not have a puller tool for the balancer hub - the shop manual shows a Kent Moore Tool J-21052 which is nowhere to be found… Would you please be so kind to recommend another good puller and installer capable of doing the job right? I also do not have the means to fabricate a tool all by myself. So I would want to buy a good quality tool that will work for sure and that wont fall apart. Would something like on the picture below work? It looks completely different than what is shown in the shop manual...
(https://forums.cadillaclasalle.club/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eldorado-seville.com%2Fpullertool.jpg&hash=8d74f2e7e31c9f1ac3fb38c95bed688e939ce153)
The instructions in the 74 FSM also mention that the balancer hub should be installed with a 1962 harmonic balancer-to-crankshaft screw and washer tightened to 125 foot-pounds... Any idea where I can get this one?
Thanks in advance for taking the time to answer my questions and for any hints for the right tool to tackle this job!
all the best,
Gerald
Boy, that is one flashy puller set.
Yes, it will do, and whatever you do, place a plug in the snout of the crankshaft to protect the thread within the crankshaft snout.
I made my own puller, and it works beautifully. Multiple holes for varying tasks, and even now, there are even more holes in it.
As for installing the hub at the completion, I use a long 9/16" UNF threaded bolt, and thread it into the crank, after sitting the hub in place, then using two spanners, wind the hub back on.
Bruce. >:D
PS. Forgot that one has to put a nut and heavy duty washer between the head of the long thread and the hub. This nut acts as the press.
The conventional pullers will not work well. The hub has to be pulled off the crank shaft. The crank shaft has female 9/16" fine threads. Best way is to make your own puller, which will work for all 472/500 engines from 1968-76, plus some other years (429 engines 1966, 1967 plus others), and maybe 425 and 368 engines from 1977-1981.
This puller pictured is made from 9/16" fine threaded rod, and 9/16" fine thread nuts. I drilled a hole and put a pin thru 9/16" nut on rod and used a wrench to keep rod from turning while another wrench turns the 9/16" fine thread nut to either pull off or press back on the hub. The Kent Moore tool requires that the crank shaft is held steady by putting compressed air in one of the cylinders, this arrangement does not require that, and frankly is a better way to go.
Although the nylon coated sprocket may not look bad, this should be done. I did this on two low miles 472/500 engines (under 30k) and the timing chain on one was stretched.
When you do this job, the oil pan has to be dropped - you should replace rear main seal for sure. Also the oil pump and fuel pump along with distributor have to be removed. Replace the fuel pump gasket and gasket on top of block where distributor is. Probably should replace the fuel pump and rubber hoses too (internals of fuel pump are rubber). You will need a 1" tubing wrench to remove fuel line from carb, may have to make one with a grinder and a closed 1" wrench - that is what I did. Read setting timing directions, car must in drive with foot on break (helper), or use emergency brake with auto release disabled. Also you should find and repair any vacuum leaks.
Good luck and enjoy your Cadillac!
Thank you gentlemen for taking the time to reply.
Scot - I sent you a message regarding your puller.
As both of you replaced the timing gear/chain already - did you notice a difference in noise compared to the nylon teeth?
Assuming you are in the U.S., any AutoZone or Advance auto parts store ( and others) have pullers and other tools for loan requiring only a deposit, fully refunded. Drawback is the loaner tools are not great quality and are not made for daily use. Many times they have been abused by the previous users, so careful inspection of the thread condition before you leave the store is advised. Most times you can get by with one time use of these instead of investing in a tool, if you don't see yourself needing these tools more than a couple times.
Thanks Art - I´m located in Austria/Europe and we cant get anything over here which would fit in a Cadillac. Everything is metric over here. I cant even find the correct bolts anywhere. I have to import every little part, tools, bolts and nuts from the USA which is pretty costly with the shipping charges and the import taxes added...
Hello Gerald,
I have replace many timing sets with the standard Cloyes set. I have never noticed any extra noise from the engine with that set. You do not need a TruRoller set unless you plan on racing or high performance.
Good luck,
Larry
That tool set looks up to the job. Not so different from an inexpensive set I bought from
JCW half a lifetime ago and used many times (mostly on Olds). Note the studs with threads
on both ends; these adapt to your engine by threading into the front of the crank, and the
tool. Make sure one of those studs has the thread for your engine; some have a limited set.
Besides standard tools I also have made some simple adapters to move the job along. One
reaches behind the crank sprocket to pull it off.
The difficulty will be getting the cover with seals back in place. At least the engine won't
try to fall out, like on a Toronado. Bruce Roe
One caution, one of the bolt holes in the balancer is off set slightly. By that I mean it is not directly across from the one opposite.
The puller you are showing has the slots set for a hub with three bolts or two bolts. The 472/500 engines have four bolts. You can use the puller if you use the two slots directly opposite each other. But you must also use the two bolt holes that are directly across from each other. If you use the one that is slightly offset the puller will not pull correctly and it won’t come off. I learned that the hard way.
I used the pully as a template and made my own puller with four holes that match the layout on the balancer.
Thank you gentlemen for your feedback regarding the puller and the timing chain.
I have one more question - when I looked at the car yesterday I noticed that there is a plug on the end of the crankshaft covering the threads as it is mentioned in the shop manual. Is it correct that this plug is just a simple cork?
I´m just wondering if this is correct ?
thanks!
Gerald
That is correct, cork.
The question of the hub pulling tool has been addressed here countless times. Kent Moore made a tool specifically designed for the Cadillac hub (yes ist is different from most others). That tool is shown in all the service manuals as Tool # J-21052 "Harmonic Balancer and Installer Set".
The tool makes hub removal and/or4 replacement a less than 5 minute job. I bought mine 10 years ago directly from Kent Moore, and they are still shown as available on line through various vendors.
http://www.autotoolworld.com/Kent-Moore-J-21052-A-Harmonic-Balancer-Puller-_p_212457.html
They are a bit pricey, but it helps keeping a parking tricky (small job) into a Federal case, and more specifically keeps from damaging anything if used correctly. I know no one out there has ever had any type of puller slip and end up hurting the parts or them selves, but this one is bullet proof.
Greg Surfas
Quote from: "Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364 on November 11, 2016, 11:04:06 AM
The question of the hub pulling tool has been addressed here countless times. Kent Moore made a tool specifically designed for the Cadillac hub (yes its is different from most others). That tool is shown in all the service manuals as Tool # J-21052 "Harmonic Balancer and Installer Set".
The tool makes hub removal and/or4 replacement a less than 5 minute job. I bought mine 10 years ago directly from Kent Moore, and they are still shown as available on line through various vendors.
http://www.autotoolworld.com/Kent-Moore-J-21052-A-Harmonic-Balancer-Puller-_p_212457.html
They are a bit pricey, but it helps keeping a parking tricky (small job) into a Federal case, and more specifically keeps from damaging anything if used correctly. I know no one out there has ever had any type of puller slip and end up hurting the parts or them selves, but this one is bullet proof.
Greg Surfas
Thanks Greg,
during my research for the correct puller I too found the link to the vendor you posted here and also all the entries in this great forum.
I 100% agree with you that this job should be done with the factory recommended puller and I wished it would be readily available.
I have already been in contact with autotoolworld about their offering. I sent them a picture of the original tool shown in the shop manual and asked them if they could verify if what they are selling is the same tool.
I only received a brief email from them as a reply:
QuoteHere you go
KMJ-21052-A IS A REMOVER/INSTALLER. In stock
KMJ-21052-B IS A PULLER. DISCONTINUED NO REPLACEMENT.
The info they sent me is exactly the opposite from their info on their website where 21052-A is listed as a puller and 21052-B is listed as a puller/installer.After this I contacted them again to ask which info is correct - the one on their website, or the one in their email as it could be easy to mix things up and never heard back from them...
I cant risk paying $559.34 + shipping + import tax, which would sum up to $1.000.- , for a tool I'm not sure it is the one I want.
I have spent many hours doing intensive research, and of course my first choice would be to have the correct tool the factory specifies, but which is also super rare and almost impossible to get.
I wish my pockets were deep enough to just risk buying from autotoolworld without thinking about it - that is why I was asking for alternatives here, and I already got some very helpful tips, which is highly appreciated.
A similar tool which might be the replacement for J-21052 could be J-23523-F - but I have no confirmation for this either. See attached picture.
So far it looks like that the most difficult part for this whole job is to find the puller/installer... ;) If I were located in the US I could just order them and try and send them back if it does not fit, which is no option from Austria / Europe.
I'm in contact with a very nice member here who might hopefully be able to sell me one of his self made pullers. I want to be 100% certain that nothing gets damaged during this job due to some inappropriate tools which are not up to the job ;-)
Sounds like somebody mixed up A and B. The A should be the one out of production; the B
its (improved?) replacement. And some know nothing kid is handling the emails. Bruce Roe