My car is a 63 Series 62 sedan. Can anyone give me any advice as to how I can find out who the original car dealer was who sold my car new in 1963 please?
GM Heritage Centre do not have any records for Cadillac's pre 1980's, although I have got hold of the build sheet that went down the line with the car.
I have contacted the third previous owner who gave me some history of the car when they bought and owned it but nothing else.
It's also a bit more difficult for me as I'm located in the UK.
Thanks in advance.
Hello Peter, On that build sheet notice it lists the Outlet Code. That is the GM Cadillac Code for the Dealer that ordered the car. Cadillac has lost the information as to who each code referred to whom however there are members here who have been busy tracking this information down so please let the forum know what that number is and you might get fortunate. One more thing, prior to 1965 there were sub dealers who did not have the ability to order a new Cadillac direct and ordered thru a larger Dealer that did have an account with GM Cadillac. I hope this helps.
Unless the outlet code ends -111, it won't be easy to track the original selling dealer. What is the outlet code?
If by slim chance you have the owner protection manual which was usually kept with the owners manual in the owner's manual pouch in the glove box, the Owner's ID card is on the last page. These were included in the 1963/64 model year owner protection manual and assume other years. Of course these are often missing but if you have yours tucked behind the owners manual and have never thumbed to the last page you might get a surprise.
As an example here is the owner ID card from the last parts car I just pulled on from Illinois.
63B154647z Owner ID Card.jpg
Thanks for the replies.
My build sheet states the Outlet Code as 381629.
I hope this helps.
Jason, no luck I'm afraid as I don't have the Owners Protection Manual. I have got a copy of an Owners Manual for this model but it did not come with the car, as I bought it on line from a supplier.
Tom Hall is an expert on dealer codes. He is listed in the CLC Directory in California.
Data plate is the first start. 59 was built in Dec 58 and sold new Jan 59 outside Pittsburgh. The old dealership is now an empty lot. I think GM can provide you details if decoding the data plate doesnt help.
Data plate won't reveal anything regarding the original point of sale. Only on the build sheet are outlet codes listed. Prior to 1960, outlet codes were three character letter ie, CHI, ATL for Chicago and Atlanta so some of these are readily interpreted. Beginning in 1960, the codes were six digit numerical, ie 850111 which I happen to know was the code for Chicago. Codes ending in -111 were used for the former large distributorships from which smaller dealers had obtained their inventory. That year, the dealer/distributor network was eliminated and smaller dealers could now place orders directly to the factory. Due to the number of dealers that were now being recognized, the old three-character system was no longer adequate, thus the new six-digit system was adopted.
The problem is that there is no known master list for these outlet codes of which there were around 200 nationwide at the time. Since the number of cars sold through small dealerships are few compared to the large distributors, information linking a specific code to a specific dealership is much more difficult.
Quote from: Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621 on March 29, 2024, 07:46:54 AMData plate won't reveal anything regarding the original point of sale. Only on the build sheet are outlet codes listed. Prior to 1960, outlet codes were three character letter ie, CHI, ATL for Chicago and Atlanta so some of these are readily interpreted. Beginning in 1960, the codes were six digit numerical, ie 850111 which I happen to know was the code for Chicago. Codes ending in -111 were used for the former large distributorships from which smaller dealers had obtained their inventory. That year, the dealer/distributor network was eliminated and smaller dealers could now place orders directly to the factory. Due to the number of dealers that were now being recognized, the old three-character system was no longer adequate, thus the new six-digit system was adopted. Since Tim indicated Tom Hall is an "expert" on dealer codes, I wonder if he has such a list?
The problem is that there is no known master list for these outlet codes of which there were around 200 nationwide at the time. Since the number of cars sold through small dealerships is very small compared to the large distributors, information linking a specific code to a specific dealership is much more difficult.
It sounds like with no documentation at best
someone could start to build an index from owners that have both the owner ID card and the build sheet.
For example,
on my 1964 Coupe de Ville the outlet code is 160111 on the build sheet and Dealer Code 363521(McKellar Cadillac, Orlando, FL) on the owner ID card. This is assuming that the outlet code and dealer code stayed the same.
Quote from: Jason Edge on March 29, 2024, 08:44:47 AMIt sounds like with no documentation at best someone could start to build an index from owners that have both the owner ID card and the build sheet.
There had been some talk of doing just that a while ago. I don't know if anything ever came of the idea.
Quote from: Jason Edge on March 29, 2024, 08:44:47 AMFor example, on my 1964 Coupe de Ville the outlet code is 160111 on the build sheet and Dealer Code 363521(McKellar Cadillac, Orlando, FL) on the owner ID card. This is assuming that the outlet code and dealer code stayed the same.
In this case, it appears the car was originally shipped to a big distributor (as indicated by -111) from whom the dealer 363521 obtained it. Even after the dissolution of the distributor method, smaller dealers continued to acquire inventory from the former big distributors.
Quote from: Art Director on March 28, 2024, 11:08:09 PMTom Hall is an expert on dealer codes. He is listed in the CLC Directory in California.
How do I contact Tom Hall?
He is listed in the directory but with no contact details.
* Ok I think I've figured it out, by clicking on the Members tab at the top of this page and sending a PM to Tom Hall.
Quote from: Peter Greenway on April 01, 2024, 11:51:52 AMHow do I contact Tom Hall?
He is listed in the directory but with no contact details.
You could try "paging" him by starting a new thread with his name in the heading ie, "Tom Hall - Outlet Code Info needed". Bear in mind, the outlet code only reveals the dealer to whom originally shipped. The actual selling dealer could still be different as in Jason's example above. To this day, dealer-to-dealer swaps are still common practice.
Thanks.
I've clicked on the Members tab at the top of this page and sent a PM to Tom Hall.
Quote from: Peter Greenway on April 01, 2024, 02:46:15 PMThanks.
I've clicked on the Members tab at the top of this page and sent a PM to Tom Hall.
How's things Peter, did you get your 58?
Before this thread goes much further, I'd like to correct some misconceptions I see here.
1) GM Media/Allied-Vaughn supplies copies of invoices or production ledgers for Cadillacs
before model year 1955. For the late-1930s into the early 1950s, it's going to be the wholesale invoice.
For 1955 model year into part of 1973 model year, they offer a copy/scan of a page from a
giant, month-end production summary titled "Cars Built", or for the early 1970s, "Cars Built/Shipped".
"Cars Built" pages for 1968 model year seem to be missing, and for some reason,
Cars Built/Shipped pages aren't available for some part of 1973 model year and more recent
years. My loss.
2) GM Media/Allied-Vaughn cannot offer copies of broadcast sheets that travelled through
assembly plants. The Cars Built report was hundreds of pages per month and did not travel
with the car while it was being assembled.
3) For 1955 model year into November 1965 calendar year, the Cars Built report reflects
a variety of accounts, including house accounts, distributor/middlemen, a small number of
direct dealers (who didn't have to buy their new Cadillacs from a distributor), and a
smaller number of stores owned and operated by Cadillac Division, called "branches".
After November 1965, the last American distributor/middlemen disappear.
4) The distributor/middleman system wasn't dismantled in 1960. It began to be dismantled
gradually following World War Two and the dismantling of that system accelerated as Zone
offices came to be opened in the 1950s and 1960s. Its last gasp in the USA was in November
1965, but even after that, dealers continued to deal with other dealers on a limited basis for
new parts and "dealer trades" of new cars.
5) Former GM Heritage Center employee Matt Larson was able to decode many of the outlet
codes of the 1950s and early 1960s, and GM Media/Allied-Vaughn used to be able to supply
some of his research for certain outlet codes. Not sure if they still do that.
6) Matt was not able to decode all codes, some of which changed for certain dealers due to
redistricting certain Zones. I am continuing his work and have made substantial progress,
with the help of members.
7) Codes ending in "...111" are for distributors/middlemen who could resell the new Cadillac
to an authorized dealer in their territory. Generally speaking, the six-digit codes ending in ...111
are among the least helpful in telling us who the retailer was.
Well put Tom. Thank you for your input on my car, and also on the work you are doing on this aspect of Cadillac history. Clay/Lexi
Quote from: PHIL WHYTE CLC 14192 on April 01, 2024, 04:39:27 PMHow's things Peter, did you get your 58?
Hi Phil, I'm sorry but I don't understand what you mean by "58"?
Peter,
Years ago I did some data organization work on the dealer codes. You're lucky, that dealer code was in that group. If the raw data was correct, Dealer Code 381629 corresponds to McKean Cadillac; 1732 William Penn Hwy.; Monroeville PA.
HTH
Quote from: Peter Greenway on March 27, 2024, 04:19:54 PMMy car is a 63 Series 62 sedan. Can anyone give me any advice as to how I can find out who the original car dealer was who sold my car new in 1963 please?
GM Heritage Centre do not have any records for Cadillac's pre 1980's, although I have got hold of the build sheet that went down the line with the car.
I have contacted the third previous owner who gave me some history of the car when they bought and owned it but nothing else.
It's also a bit more difficult for me as I'm located in the UK.
Thanks in advance.
Hi guys, thanks so much for all your replies and helpful information. Tom Hall has now decoded my outlet code and says that my car was ordered by McKean Cadillac Company, 1732 William Penn Highway, Monroeville, PA.
So that's where the trail ends, or starts. I now have a gap in the history from Monroeville, PA to the car being found in Somerset PA, then I have evidence of ownership right up to myself in the UK.
This is interesting stuff which I like a lot.
Regards and safe driving. :)
Great news. Another benefit of CLC Membership are all of the valuable contacts you will make (as you just did). Can't put a price on that. The CLC is a lot more than just reading the Forum, getting the Self Starter or even the GN. No, I am not an Administrator or an employee of the CLC, but all users should consider becoming a member to ensure that this valuable resource center continues, while it assists us in keeping our Cadillac cars alive and on the road. Clay/Lexi